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RONIN

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13 minutes ago, J Dog said:

Why is Ace problematic? He's a straight guy who was tricked into wanting and kissing a man? That's not really a dig at anybody, just someone who freaked out after being tricked into do something he's not into. I'm a straight guy, and if I was tricked into wanting and kissing a man I'd have some type of reaction (not sure I'd cry in the shower :lol:). So if I had a negative reaction after said situation, would that offended you? Would that mean I hate gay/transgender? Would that make me homophobic? That's ridiculous.

Fuck that, I would knock somebody the fuck out that day :lol:

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3 minutes ago, J Dog said:

Why is Ace problematic? He's a straight guy who was tricked into wanting and kissing a man? That's not really a dig at anybody, just someone who freaked out after being tricked into do something he's not into. I'm a straight guy, and if I was tricked into wanting and kissing a man I'd have some type of reaction (not sure I'd cry in the shower :lol:). So if I had a negative reaction after said situation, would that offended you? Would that mean I hate gay/transgender? Would that make me homophobic? That's ridiculous.

Sorry if I wasn't clear, I find all the scenes I posted to be amusing in some way - that's why I started this thread and used those particular clips. I'm not offended by them. But there are a lot of people who would be. That's the purpose of this thread, to get some different perspectives on how this could be interpreted negatively. 

Re: The Ace clip, I meant "problematic" in the sense that it could be easily misconstrued because of Ace's overreaction. lol Chances are if you kissed a dude, you're not going to be burning your clothes and using a toilet plunger on yourself. That's the comedic part but (and I'm just guessing here at one of the potential issues) someone transgender might think that the scene gives the impression that their status in society is so low and repulsive that it's a huge affront to be involved with them romantically. Think about it - you would probably never see that kind of scene in a movie today. The question is...why? Most probably because it would be considered ignorant and offensive. What is considered acceptable and unacceptable is getting redefined every year.

It goes beyond being sensitive "snowflakes" - a lot of the humor that poked fun at specific groups of people is evolving. Gay, sexist and racial humor wouldn't be presented today in the same way it was even 5-10 years ago. And that isn't a bad thing but I wonder how some of these older "artifacts" are going to be interpreted in the years ahead. 

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I think you're still glazing over the fact that, Ace isn't freaked out just because the guy is gay or transgender or whatever, it's also  about being lied/manipulated/tricked into doing something he's not into. If you go around doing that type of shady shit, then you're in the wrong and should expect a reaction. I don't care if the guilty party is gay or straight or transgender or anything else.

You act like Ace found out the guy was transgender and went full on hate. The transgender in question pulled a dirty move, or should we just skip over that little fact?

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18 minutes ago, J Dog said:

I think you're still glazing over the fact that, Ace isn't freaked out just because the guy is gay or transgender or whatever, it's also  about being lied/manipulated/tricked into doing something he's not into. If you go around doing that type of shady shit, then you're in the wrong and should expect a reaction. I don't care if the guilty party is gay or straight or transgender or anything else.

You act like Ace found out the guy was transgender and went full on hate. The transgender in question pulled a dirty move, or should we just skip over that little fact?

Regardless of those nuances, the comedy is essentially in Ace kissing a dude and overreacting over it. Agree/disagree? Therefore the scene could be construed as offensive depending on your sociopolitical views. I feel like it's literally that black and white with some people.

Certain folks are just not going to interpret that scene the way you and I do - just check the youtube comments of that video. What they're going to see in that clip is a straight guy taking a dig at a transgender person and come to the conclusion that the scene is transphobic. And therein lies the rub. I think a lot of younger people (under 30 crowd) are going to perceive this stuff differently from those of us who grew up with this kind of humor. 

Here's a sample comment from YouTube:

This is uncomfortable. Yes, this was a different time. Before trans people were really widely accepted as they are now. Back when media always portrayed them as, "traps". It's transphobic, but it happened. Is the execution still pretty good, yeah. Is the joke it's self shitty, yes. Would we make this joke today, no, and that's a good thing. We're progressing to be more inclusive, and that's a good thing. Jokes like these have no place today.

 

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Comedy that relies on punching down is really the lowest and least intelligent type of comedy imo.

Ace Ventura was always cringeworthy to me because Carrey's style is just so OTT in general though.

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10 hours ago, RONIN said:

Regardless of those nuances, the comedy is essentially in Ace kissing a dude and overreacting over it. Agree/disagree? Therefore the scene could be construed as offensive depending on your sociopolitical views. I feel like it's literally that black and white with some people.

Certain folks are just not going to interpret that scene the way you and I do - just check the youtube comments of that video. What they're going to see in that clip is a straight guy taking a dig at a transgender person and come to the conclusion that the scene is transphobic. And therein lies the rub. I think a lot of younger people (under 30 crowd) are going to perceive this stuff differently from those of us who grew up with this kind of humor. 

Here's a sample comment from YouTube:

This is uncomfortable. Yes, this was a different time. Before trans people were really widely accepted as they are now. Back when media always portrayed them as, "traps". It's transphobic, but it happened. Is the execution still pretty good, yeah. Is the joke it's self shitty, yes. Would we make this joke today, no, and that's a good thing. We're progressing to be more inclusive, and that's a good thing. Jokes like these have no place today.

I find it fascinating the way one can evolve with times. I remember laughing very hard at this scene back then. Never saw that movie again and now that I've watched the clip you posted, I feel a bit uncomfortable and can totally see why gay/trans people could be offended by it.

Although, I must say that I can also understand what is like to be forced to do something sexual with someone you are not attracted to. It feels like rape. It is violent when someone forces themselves on you, whether they are gay or straight.

However, this is still a movie, fiction and comedy. All elements are exaggerated for a purpose. One could argue, how much of an idiot Ace is, that he didn't realize that was a man... I mean, does this really happen in real life? Are there lots of men being fooled by trans women out there? Or is there some sort of complicity with playing fool and overlooking that fact? 

This opens a whole new debate about transgender honesty and the respect they should give to people who are not attracted to them. I'm sure once these topics stop being so sensitive, comedy and humor will find new ways to address these issues and no one will feel offended. I think this happens now because times are changing, relationships are changing and new forms of sexuality are being introduced in the spectrum.

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I think, perhaps, Ace Venturas a really really lightweight insubstantial fluffy piece of work and there wasn’t enough thought put into the scriptwriting process other than ‘make people laugh with some stupid shit’ and this is why yous all are struggling to formulate some sort of consistency of intent behind the shit that goes on in it, in the same way you might with a film like Freddy Got Fingered, these things weren’t made to be pored over :lol:

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5 hours ago, killuridols said:

I find it fascinating the way one can evolve with times. I remember laughing very hard at this scene back then. Never saw that movie again and now that I've watched the clip you posted, I feel a bit uncomfortable and can totally see why gay/trans people could be offended by it.

Great post, you sort of encapsulated what I was trying (unsuccessfully) to explain. That particular scene in Ace Ventura was and still is my favorite scene in the film. I didn't have the same reaction as you to seeing the clip again but I did sort of pause a bit afterwards and think "No way would this scene ever make it into a film today". One could argue the use of the song "The Crying Game" in that scene makes it spoofier but still...I could see how the whole thing could be seen as an exercise in bad taste now.

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Although, I must say that I can also understand what is like to be forced to do something sexual with someone you are not attracted to. It feels like rape. It is violent when someone forces themselves on you, whether they are gay or straight.

However, this is still a movie, fiction and comedy. All elements are exaggerated for a purpose. One could argue, how much of an idiot Ace is, that he didn't realize that was a man... I mean, does this really happen in real life? Are there lots of men being fooled by trans women out there? Or is there some sort of complicity with playing fool and overlooking that fact? 

 

For sure. I imagine if this happened to a good portion of males, the reaction would not be good. I consider myself a very open-minded person but I'd probably have a visceral reaction if I found myself in "The Crying Game":lol: I remember my friends putting that movie on when we were kids thinking it was a dirty movie and we all felt like we had been punched in the face repeatedly after the "reveal" scene. :lol::facepalm:

As far as getting fooled/complicity - could be a bit of both. Remember Eddie Murphy's gay jokes in his standup and then in the mid 90's he became a "good samaritan" picking up a transgender prostitute in his car in the middle of the night (who mysteriously vanished soon after) ? On the other hand, I hear the lady boys in Thailand are very difficult to spot as males. A friend of mine from Japan was fooled by one recently....:lol:

Quote

This opens a whole new debate about transgender honesty and the respect they should give to people who are not attracted to them. I'm sure once these topics stop being so sensitive, comedy and humor will find new ways to address these issues and no one will feel offended. I think this happens now because times are changing, relationships are changing and new forms of sexuality are being introduced in the spectrum.

Exactly. I think post Caitlyn Jenner, things are inching towards them being more integrated into the mainstream but it will take a generation or two before there's any significant shift in attitude and opinions imho. But as you said, humor will find a new to address it just as it has with other hot button issues like race and homosexuality. 

 

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2 hours ago, Oldest Goat said:

Speaking for myself and all other men except @Len Cnut - No. :lol: How often does it happen, mate? Constantly or just a lot?

Take a holiday to Thailand and find out Oldest Goat. :lol:

16 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

I think, perhaps, Ace Venturas a really really lightweight insubstantial fluffy piece of work and there wasn’t enough thought put into the scriptwriting process other than ‘make people laugh with some stupid shit’ and this is why yous all are struggling to formulate some sort of consistency of intent behind the shit that goes on in it, in the same way you might with a film like Freddy Got Fingered, these things weren’t made to be pored over :lol:

Nailed it. 

Also, I think you and I might be the only two people in the world who saw Freddy Got Fingered. :facepalm:

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I think it was Moliere who once said, or wrote, that the job of comedy is to correct the vices of men.  With this in mind I think its important to offend because the rational civilized mind will look at why he's offended and maybe learn something about his or her self.

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9 minutes ago, RONIN said:

Take a holiday to Thailand and find out Oldest Goat. :lol:

Nailed it. 

Also, I think you and I might be the only two people in the world who saw Freddy Got Fingered. :facepalm:

The funny thing is I ain't even seen it :lol:  Ace Ventura I mean.  There's a subtle clue in the title 'Pet Detective' though :lol:

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7 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

I try to reach people in this way. Sometimes it works...sometimes it doesn't...

P.S. I don't have much respect for Caitlyn Jenner. She didn't even cut her dick off. In fact, you know what? REAL TALK; Caitlyn is a he. You cut that shit off asap if you want to be called she.

Do what she fuckin wants as far as I’m concerned.  And I’ll call her what she wants to, its really not my concern.  Have a dick, have three dick, have three dicks, a minge and an arse for a mouth and claim to identify as a wooly mammoth if it makes you happy, I’ll call you a woolly mammoth, hey, why not?

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3 hours ago, RONIN said:

Great post, you sort of encapsulated what I was trying (unsuccessfully) to explain. That particular scene in Ace Ventura was and still is my favorite scene in the film. I didn't have the same reaction as you to seeing the clip again but I did sort of pause a bit afterwards and think "No way would this scene ever make it into a film today". One could argue the use of the song "The Crying Game" in that scene makes it spoofier but still...I could see how the whole thing could be seen as an exercise in bad taste now.

It made me feel bad for them.... and I must admit that I'm not much of a fan of transgenderism. I'm still struggling with that whole thing. But I would never disrespect a person because of that. 

"The Crying Game" movie is another factor that makes me wonder how a young person (gay or straight) would interpret this scene. Because if you never watched it, never heard the song or know nothing about it, there's a bit of the joke that gets lost without that piece of information.

3 hours ago, RONIN said:

For sure. I imagine if this happened to a good portion of males, the reaction would not be good. I consider myself a very open-minded person but I'd probably have a visceral reaction if I found myself in "The Crying Game":lol: I remember my friends putting that movie on when we were kids thinking it was a dirty movie and we all felt like we had been punched in the face repeatedly after the "reveal" scene. :lol::facepalm:

As far as getting fooled/complicity - could be a bit of both. Remember Eddie Murphy's gay jokes in his standup and then in the mid 90's he became a "good samaritan" picking up a transgender prostitute in his car in the middle of the night (who mysteriously vanished soon after) ? On the other hand, I hear the lady boys in Thailand are very difficult to spot as males. A friend of mine from Japan was fooled by one recently....:lol:

That's the thing. Men seem to be terrified of finding out they've been tricked into that. An overreaction like Ace's could get them into trouble, so I guess now men will have to refine their "trans radar" and tame their hormones :lol:..... I mean, take time to know the person before you jump to bed and if you find out they are not being honest, dismiss them with respect.

No, I know nothing about Eddie Murphy, but that's another aspect of this story. There are some men who really dig sex with trans people and search for it, but they act hypocritical about it, denying their involvement with a trans person, living a double life sometimes (married with children) and acting homophobic. But probably that happens because transgender people are still considered third class citizens (at least in my country they are) and no one wants to be associated to that. 

Lol, lady boys... I can believe that. With how much science has advanced, I can notice the new trans are more "perfect" than the ones from 20 years ago. Now they start taking hormones when they are children, which helps them evolve into the new gender before the one they were assigned at birth kicks in.

3 hours ago, RONIN said:

Exactly. I think post Caitlyn Jenner, things are inching towards them being more integrated into the mainstream but it will take a generation or two before there's any significant shift in attitude and opinions imho. But as you said, humor will find a new to address it just as it has with other hot button issues like race and homosexuality

Some countries are more advanced than others... In Latinamerica, for example, the Caitlyn Jenner thing was taken for a joke and people consider "her" a ridiculous crazy man. No one takes her seriously here. Most trans are laughed at, they also get beaten up or killed :(

But yeah, there's still a long way to go for them. Society reacts like this when the status quo is shaken and then comes a period of adaption to the "new order".

4 hours ago, Len Cnut said:

I think, perhaps, Ace Venturas a really really lightweight insubstantial fluffy piece of work and there wasn’t enough thought put into the scriptwriting process other than ‘make people laugh with some stupid shit’ and this is why yous all are struggling to formulate some sort of consistency of intent behind the shit that goes on in it, in the same way you might with a film like Freddy Got Fingered, these things weren’t made to be pored over :lol:

Is this movie from the 90s or 00's?

Most Jim Carrey movies are dumb like shit and humor is basic, quick, like you said, no one has elaborated much into those scenes because this is aimed to the Homer Simpsons kind of guy, if you know what I mean.

I don't know if this type of movies are still made.... I've stopped watching popcorn films a long time ago.

 

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4 minutes ago, killuridols said:

It made me feel bad for them.... and I must admit that I'm not much of a fan of transgenderism. I'm still struggling with that whole thing. But I would never disrespect a person because of that. 

"The Crying Game" movie is another factor that makes me wonder how a young person (gay or straight) would interpret this scene. Because if you never watched it, never heard the song or know nothing about it, there's a bit of the joke that gets lost without that piece of information.

That's the thing. Men seem to be terrified of finding out they've been tricked into that. An overreaction like Ace's could get them into trouble, so I guess now men will have to refine their "trans radar" and tame their hormones :lol:..... I mean, take time to know the person before you jump to bed and if you find out they are not being honest, dismiss them with respect.

No, I know nothing about Eddie Murphy, but that's another aspect of this story. There are some men who really dig sex with trans people and search for it, but they act hypocritical about it, denying their involvement with a trans person, living a double life sometimes (married with children) and acting homophobic. But probably that happens because transgender people are still considered third class citizens (at least in my country they are) and no one wants to be associated to that. 

Lol, lady boys... I can believe that. With how much science has advanced, I can notice the new trans are more "perfect" than the ones from 20 years ago. Now they start taking hormones when they are children, which helps them evolve into the new gender before the one they were assigned at birth kicks in.

Some countries are more advanced than others... In Latinamerica, for example, the Caitlyn Jenner thing was taken for a joke and people consider "her" a ridiculous crazy man. No one takes her seriously here. Most trans are laughed at, they also get beaten up or killed :(

But yeah, there's still a long way to go for them. Society reacts like this when the status quo is shaken and then comes a period of adaption to the "new order".

Is this movie from the 90s or 00's?

Most Jim Carrey movies are dumb like shit and humor is basic, quick, like you said, no one has elaborated much into those scenes because this is aimed to the Homer Simpsons kind of guy, if you know what I mean.

I don't know if this type of movies are still made.... I've stopped watching popcorn films a long time ago.

 

Leave Homer Simpson alone! :lol:

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On 22/5/2018 at 5:12 AM, AxlRoseCDII said:

People get offended by literally anything these days so it’s getting harder to determine what is actually offensive when not looking at personal views.

No, some newspaper or T.V. channel resports that some Joe Doe got offended by something. It becomes huge (in part because of social media) and everyone if giving their opinion without knowing all the facts. That's the problem. 

Like the Starbucks controversy. I always thought their bathroom policy was idiotic. But I also think they have the right to come up with any policy they want.

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Also, I'm really tired of everybody being offended all the time. So fucking what? When did people lose their ability to deal with it? When did we all start thinking it's terrible to offend people? By all means, offend the fuck out of them! If you offend everybody you'll soon figure it out because the world thinks you're a dickhead. If you offend some people because they're being pussies, you'll help them learn to fucking deal with it and make them more resiliant people. Go you! The world is NOT supposed to be a "safe space". It's unsafe as fuck. And so is the internet. If you want to feel safe, have good relationships with friends and family. 

 

So for the record, there are 2 genders. No more than that. Just two. Man or woman. You're one of them. In the rare medical case of being hermaphroditic you're both. You can identify as whatever the fuck you feel like, but that doesn't make it true.

Also, yay to jokes about race, gender (which, by the way, is the same as sex, just two options) , sexual orientation, religion and all that. Prejudice is fun. Use it for fun. It takes away it's power and makes society better. 

 

...sorry. Went a bit off-topic there. 

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Sanctity is antithetical to comedy.  Comedy by its very nature is irreverent.  It has to come from a perspective of fuck black people, fuck white people, fuck gays, trannies and asians and fuck...just fuck the lot of ya, comedy is the pin with which you take all the hot air out of mankind and all of its ideas, if you elevate everything to this position where comedy isn't allowed to go then its comedys duty to go there because self importance of that sort is what comedy is designed to puncture.  Its the way we bring ourselves down a peg or two.  The way a society relates to comedy is the barometer of free speech and judging by that criteria the entire planet is still yet to be in a place where there is true freedom of speech.  I don't care where comedy goes, nothing is too far, too sacred or outside the bounds of any notions of taste that I have, in fact I do care because I demand that it goes everywhere. 

There is a theory out there that comedy is inherently vicious.  I'm not sure if its accurate but I like that idea.  If you look at the earliest forms of comedy its buffonery, its slapstick, it evolved out of this idea of laughing at, which we're so afraid of now, you have to be laughing with because laughing at is apparently very cruel and how could human beings possibly be cruel? :lol:  But the idea is that it comes from that, someone or something has to be the butt of a joke, whether its a person or a concept or idea.  According to theory it has its roots in and fundamentally is like the snarling of pack animals.  I don't think thats the entirity of it but I do think that thats an interesting theory and probably a great part of it.  Its why fat lady falls down a hole has 500 million views on youtube.

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27 minutes ago, Padme said:

No, some newspaper or T.V. channel resports that some Joe Doe got offended by something. It becomes huge (in part because of social media) and everyone if giving their opinion without knowing all the facts. That's the problem. 

Yeah, what's up with that?

I tend to think those kind of reports are made up and come from the anti-PC brigade, just to make people believe everybody's "out ta get you".

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10 minutes ago, killuridols said:

Yeah, what's up with that?

I tend to think those kind of reports are made up and come from the anti-PC brigade, just to make people believe everybody's "out ta get you".

I don't know if it is made up. I just don't understand why it is news if some Starbucks employee tells you that only costumers can use the bathroom. Maybe that employee overreacted by calling the police. But I wasn't there. I don't know what went on. It is the policy of many bars and restaurants. As I say I don't like it. But they have the right to do it. Although in the case of Starbucks it was too muc. They gave costumers a code number and they had to dial it to open the bathroom door.

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17 minutes ago, Padme said:

I don't know if it is made up. I just don't understand why it is news if some Starbucks employee tells you that only costumers can use the bathroom. Maybe that employee overreacted by calling the police. But I wasn't there. I don't know what went on. It is the policy of many bars and restaurants. As I say I don't like it. But they have the right to do it. Although in the case of Starbucks it was too muc. They gave costumers a code number and they had to dial it to open the bathroom door.

Omg why? Looooool

I have no idea, I didn't read this news and I'm not interested. I don't care. But I can see those kind of news being part of everybody's conversation and people getting paranoid over that.

My stance is treat everybody with respect and you will be fine. No need to be an asshole just for the sake of it.

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2 hours ago, username said:

Jim Carrey was never offensive. Nor was he ever funny. 

How dare you sir.

Jim had a trifecta of blockbuster hits w/ Ace Ventura, The Mask, and Dumb & Dumber. That was only repeated once in the history of hollywood - when the One True God, Nicolas Cage, released The Rock, Con Air, and Face/Off:wub:

39 minutes ago, J Dog said:

I'm more offended by Ace Ventura's fashion style than his gay reaction

Ace was a fashion trendsetter! :lol:

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