The Blues & There Was A Time 2001 Discussion **NO LINKS**

[zombux]

as for TWAT, I prefer the 2006 version probably. anyway, have you guys noticed that both these demos completely lack Buckethead? or at least it sounds so, no trace of his soloing, no guitar virtuoso stuff. 

[OMG]

Would love to hear them...

[Gunner55]

Blues is my favorite version of the song. Have yet to hear TWAT but still looking for that one. Still can't believe what's happening here

[NeonKinight]

"Better 2002 > Better Final Version

If The World Album Version > If the World 2002  (But Overall a very weak song due to Mickey's vocals)

Prostitute Album Version > Prostitute 2002"

wait, what?
Prostitute, better n if the world from 2002?

[LlamaRenegade]

1 minute ago, NeonKinight said:

"Better 2002 > Better Final Version

If The World Album Version > If the World 2002  (But Overall a very weak song due to Mickey's vocals)

Prostitute Album Version > Prostitute 2002"

wait, what?
Prostitute, better n if the world from 2002?

Is Better 2002 the one that leaked in 2006 with the instrumental? Also is Prostitute 2002 the Antiquiet leak?

[Powerage5]

24 minutes ago, ApacheChief42 said:

Is Better 2002 the one that leaked in 2006 with the instrumental? Also is Prostitute 2002 the Antiquiet leak?

That's the only leak we have of Prostitute, so I would assume so. But I've never heard it (Or Better or ITW for that matter) referred to as 2002 versions...

[zombux]

1 minute ago, Powerage5 said:

That's the only leak we have of Prostitute, so I would assume so. But I've never heard it (Or Better or ITW for that matter) referred to as 2002 versions...

yup. the Antiquiet leaks were leaked in 2008, but they have Bumblefoot all over them, so they can hardly be described as "2002 versions". they're definitely "something between 2006-2008 versions". 

[zombux]

On 6/13/2018 at 7:20 AM, Wagszilla said:

If you take Skwerl's story as gospel, his contact swiped a CD from Jimmy Iovine's office in roughly June 2007.

Andy Wallace worked on the project in 2006-2007.

Axl was not wholly satisfied with the mixes, apparently, so Bumblefoot and Frank were added in February 2007 and him and Caram remixed the record in Fall 2007. The album was done and being negotiated on a year before it's release in November 2008.

It would be interesting to know how much Andy mixed or if this 10 song CD was a try-out of sorts.

It also begs the question of who mixed the album in 2006 that was played at Axl's house. 

hmmm... interesting. so there are a few "waves" of demos we already have. 

 

(Big Daddy and End of Days released at some point around here, unsure if the "1999 demos" are of earlier data)

"1999 demos" - IRS, TWAT, CITR + probably "Checkmate" + maybe also Atlas Shrugged - pre-BH era, but probably the year might be up to 2001, TWAT here is not that different from the RTB mix that leaked recently

"2001 RTB mixes" - Maddy, TWAT, The Blues - no trace of Buckethead, so those might come from 1999-2000, altough mixes might be newer, up to 2002 maybe

"2002 Boston/Albany promo" - ChiDem, Maddy, The Blues - first very prominent guitar work by Buckethead

"IRS Piazza recording" - it went on air in August 2003, so it can't be newer than this. I don't remember if it in fact is the very same track as "1999 demo" or "early 2006 leaked demo"

"early 2006 leaked demos" - IRS, Better, two versions of TWAT + instrumentals - obviously these can't be newer than february 2006, and have Buckethead all over them - so I'd say recorded 2001-2003 or early 2004 at most (Bucket left for good in March 2004)

"2013 Bumblefoot guitar demos" - Going Down, OMG, Silkworms + probably Atlas Shrugged - the demos are older (anything between 2000 and 2005, but sound like 2001), Bumble's guitar is around May or June 2006

"Better early 2007 leaked demo" - unsure if this was the part of the next bunch, it's presumably the same as used in 2006 Harley Davidson commercial

"2007 leaked demos" - Maddy, ChiDem, The Blues, Better, TWAT - these still don't feature Bumblefoot/Frank, so probably they are newer mixes recorded in similar years as the ones before

"Antiquiet leaks 2008" - the same songs as a year before + Better - Bumblefoot is prominent there, so these must be newer than say May 2006 - of course only the Bumblefoot's and Frank's parts may be older, but the mixes must be recent.

"pre-ChiDem leaks" - Rhiad, Prostitute, ITW - probably older mixes, because they have no Bumblefoot on them, or he doesn't play prominently there (?)

"Chicken Binge" - Shackler's Revenge - very similar to album version, so probably recent mix

"Better by Bumblefoot" - recorded during Barefoot EP sessions, that is late summer or fall 2008

(album released here)

"Better by DJ Ashba" - probably recorded in late 2009 before the tour started

"Brain remixes" - Better Gone, BITW, Shackler, ITW, TIL, probably also Sorry - Brain talked about having remixed Shackler as early as April 2009, but it seems the work was gradual, until like mid 2010. Better Gone is using acoustic guitar parts from Bumblefoot's version and probably the same vocal line was used.

 

your thoughts? I might be wrong in many ideas.

 

 

Edited June 21, 2018 by zombux

[LlamaRenegade]

6 minutes ago, zombux said:

hmmm... interesting. so there are a few "waves" of demos we already have. 

 

"1999 demos" - IRS, TWAT, CITR - pre-BH era, but probably the year might be up to 2001, TWAT here is not that different from the RTB mix that leaked recently

"2001 RTB mixes" - Maddy, TWAT, The Blues - no trace of Buckethead, so those might come from 1999-2000, altough mixes might be newer, up to 2002 maybe

"2002 Boston/Albany promo" - ChiDem, Maddy, The Blues - first very prominent guitar work by Buckethead

"IRS Piazza recording" - it went on air in August 2003, so it can't be newer than this. I don't remember if it in fact is the very same track as "1999 demo" or "early 2006 leaked demo"

"early 2006 leaked demos" - IRS, Better, two versions of TWAT + instrumentals - obviously these can't be newer than february 2006, and have Buckethead all over them - so I'd say recorded 2001-2003 or early 2004 at most (Bucket left for good in March 2004)

"Checkmate leak" - Jackie Chan - leaked in May 2006, it sounds much older, but it might also be due to bad quality

"2013 Bumblefoot guitar demos" - Going Down, OMG, Silkworms - the demos are older (anything between 2000 and 2005, but sound like 2001), Bumble's guitar is around May or June 2006

"Better early 2007 leaked demo" - unsure if this was the part of the next bunch, it's presumably the same as used in 2006 Harley Davidson commercial

"2007 leaked demos" - Maddy, ChiDem, The Blues, Better, TWAT - these still don't feature Bumblefoot/Frank, so probably they are newer mixes recorded in similar years as the ones before

"Antiquiet leaks 2008" - the same songs as a year before + Better - Bumblefoot is prominent there, so these must be newer than say May 2006 - of course only the Bumblefoot's and Frank's parts may be older, but the mixes must be recent.

"pre-ChiDem leaks" - Rhiad, Prostitute, ITW - probably older mixes, because they have no Bumblefoot on them, or he doesn't play prominently there (?)

"Chicken Binge" - Shackler's Revenge - very similar to album version, so probably recent mix

"Better by Bumblefoot" - recorded during Barefoot EP sessions, that is late summer or fall 2008

(album released here)

"Better by DJ Ashba" - probably recorded in late 2009 before the tour started

"Brain remixes" - Better Gone, BITW, Shackler, ITW, TIL, probably also Sorry - Brain talked about having remixed Shackler as early as April 2009, but it seems the work was gradual, until like mid 2010. Better Gone is using acoustic guitar parts from Bumblefoot's version and probably the same vocal line was used.

 

your thoughts? I might be wrong in many ideas.

 

 

This seems right to me. But can you clarify, is the "Better early 2007 leaked demo" the same as the Better 2006 demo? It's the only one on this list that I've never heard before. Also, the IRS Piazza recording is the same as 1999 IRS.

Edited June 13, 2018 by ApacheChief42

[Grayfox]

15 minutes ago, zombux said:

hmmm... interesting. so there are a few "waves" of demos we already have. 

 

"1999 demos" - IRS, TWAT, CITR - pre-BH era, but probably the year might be up to 2001, TWAT here is not that different from the RTB mix that leaked recently

"2001 RTB mixes" - Maddy, TWAT, The Blues - no trace of Buckethead, so those might come from 1999-2000, altough mixes might be newer, up to 2002 maybe

"2002 Boston/Albany promo" - ChiDem, Maddy, The Blues - first very prominent guitar work by Buckethead

"IRS Piazza recording" - it went on air in August 2003, so it can't be newer than this. I don't remember if it in fact is the very same track as "1999 demo" or "early 2006 leaked demo"

"early 2006 leaked demos" - IRS, Better, two versions of TWAT + instrumentals - obviously these can't be newer than february 2006, and have Buckethead all over them - so I'd say recorded 2001-2003 or early 2004 at most (Bucket left for good in March 2004)

"Checkmate leak" - Jackie Chan - leaked in May 2006, it sounds much older, but it might also be due to bad quality

"2013 Bumblefoot guitar demos" - Going Down, OMG, Silkworms - the demos are older (anything between 2000 and 2005, but sound like 2001), Bumble's guitar is around May or June 2006

"Better early 2007 leaked demo" - unsure if this was the part of the next bunch, it's presumably the same as used in 2006 Harley Davidson commercial

"2007 leaked demos" - Maddy, ChiDem, The Blues, Better, TWAT - these still don't feature Bumblefoot/Frank, so probably they are newer mixes recorded in similar years as the ones before

"Antiquiet leaks 2008" - the same songs as a year before + Better - Bumblefoot is prominent there, so these must be newer than say May 2006 - of course only the Bumblefoot's and Frank's parts may be older, but the mixes must be recent.

"pre-ChiDem leaks" - Rhiad, Prostitute, ITW - probably older mixes, because they have no Bumblefoot on them, or he doesn't play prominently there (?)

"Chicken Binge" - Shackler's Revenge - very similar to album version, so probably recent mix

"Better by Bumblefoot" - recorded during Barefoot EP sessions, that is late summer or fall 2008

(album released here)

"Better by DJ Ashba" - probably recorded in late 2009 before the tour started

"Brain remixes" - Better Gone, BITW, Shackler, ITW, TIL, probably also Sorry - Brain talked about having remixed Shackler as early as April 2009, but it seems the work was gradual, until like mid 2010. Better Gone is using acoustic guitar parts from Bumblefoot's version and probably the same vocal line was used.

 

your thoughts? I might be wrong in many ideas.

 

 

Wasn’t Checkmate sourced from the same tape as CITR w/ Brian May?

[zombux]

1 minute ago, ApacheChief42 said:

This seems right to me. But can you clarify, is the "Better early 2007 leaked demo" the same as the Better 2006 demo? It's the only one on this list that I've never heard before. Also, the IRS Piazza recording is the same as 1999 IRS.

I vaguely remember that it's different

 

1 minute ago, Grayfox said:

Wasn’t Checkmate sourced from the same tape as CITR w/ Brian May?

the "quality" and overall sound might suggest it, and also it came from the same batch by DJ Razz, yes. there's no other info about it however. I was thinking about including it in the "1999 demos" or not, and decided it to just push somewhere in the day it leaked rather than presumed age. yes, it might be wrong

1 minute ago, Wagszilla said:

• I heard it said that Catcher, Atlas, Jackie were on the same tape.
  • Recording session for Brian May was Christmas 1999, Sean was gone shortly thereafter.

I also heard Atlas was on the same tape provided to BBF in 2006, so there were presumably multiple versions.

[Grayfox]

1 minute ago, zombux said:

I vaguely remember that it's different

 

the "quality" and overall sound might suggest it, and also it came from the same batch by DJ Razz, yes. there's no other info about it however. I was thinking about including it in the "1999 demos" or not, and decided it to just push somewhere in the day it leaked rather than presumed age. yes, it might be wrong

It’s certainly hard to pinpoint things properly especially due to the randomness of how it went down. Wagszilla is on to something cause at the time when the original 10sec CITR clip leaked it was stated that there was 3 songs there. I do remember Atlas being claimed and I thought it was said Checkmate was. 

Also I believe the CD Mike got with IRS had 1 other song on it that was never played.

[zombux]

I edited my original list to include two presumed Atlases and put "Checkmate" together with "1999 demos".

[wasted]

11 hours ago, zombux said:

as for TWAT, I prefer the 2006 version probably. anyway, have you guys noticed that both these demos completely lack Buckethead? or at least it sounds so, no trace of his soloing, no guitar virtuoso stuff. 

Is that bcos its the 99 Beavan version or they took his stuff off RTB version?

[wasted]

3 minutes ago, zombux said:

I edited my original list to include two presumed Atlases and put "Checkmate" together with "1999 demos".

Checkmate aka The General aka Jackie Chan?

[zombux]

3 minutes ago, wasted said:

Is that bcos its the 99 Beavan version or they took his stuff off RTB version?

good thinking. hard to say now. it might indeed be "Beavan era recording" that was later "mixed by RTB". I don't think it's the other case.

 

Just now, wasted said:

Checkmate aka The General aka Jackie Chan?

no, NOT The General. "Checkmate" was a bogus title created by DJ Razz if I remember correctly. in a later chat Axl said the real title is Jackie Chan, and even that one was only a working one.

The General is another song if I remember correctly.

[zombux]

1 minute ago, Wagszilla said:

What do you mean no Buckethead?

no Buckethead in those "1999" and "2001" demos/versions. at least I can't hear him there. the first time he seems to be there is the Boston/Albany 2002 promo.

[wasted]

7 minutes ago, zombux said:

good thinking. hard to say now. it might indeed be "Beavan era recording" that was later "mixed by RTB". I don't think it's the other case.

 

no, NOT The General. "Checkmate" was a bogus title created by DJ Razz if I remember correctly. in a later chat Axl said the real title is Jackie Chan, and even that one was only a working one.

The General is another song if I remember correctly.

RTB re-recorded everything. But Constanzo may have edited/remixed the Beavan version. It depends who is making these tracks. If it was Brain then he remixed them, but if these are from a remix and alt version album, then maybe Costanzo made versions without Bucket. 

I thought, the trader pretended to have The General but when they traded he called it Checkmate as a fuck you, that’s how we got some of the leaks. He just had a clip of The General.

I may be confused. You’re saying that clip of Checkmate is real but Axl said its working title was Jackie chan? 

[wasted]

11 minutes ago, zombux said:

no Buckethead in those "1999" and "2001" demos/versions. at least I can't hear him there. the first time he seems to be there is the Boston/Albany 2002 promo.

Bucket wasn’t in the band in 99? Or he was never recording with Beavan. 

Bucket joined with RTB and Brain to re-record everything. So you can tell easier by who is drummer Freese or Brain?

 

Edited June 13, 2018 by wasted

[zombux]

22 minutes ago, wasted said:

RTB re-recorded everything. But Constanzo may have edited/remixed the Beavan version. It depends who is making these tracks. If it was Brain then he remixed them, but if these are from a remix and alt version album, then maybe Costanzo made versions without Bucket. 

yeah. the problem here is, there are numerous sessions between 1998 and 2008, with many many recordings of either whole songs, or just parts of them, and the album versions as well as leaked demos are quite possibly glued together from various sessions, so it's hard to tell exactly from which session is each of them - sometimes it's even impossible

 

18 minutes ago, wasted said:

Bucket wasn’t in the band in 99? Or he was recording with Beavan. 

Bucket joined with RTB and Brain to re-record everything. So you can tell easier by who is drummer Freese or Brain?

Beavan joined in Autumn 1999, Bucket in 2000 (can't find exact time - it's said Axl and Bucket first met at Axl's Christmas party, but I can't seem to find if 99 or 2000 - maybe it was Christmas 1999, because Robin Finck left in August 1999 and Christmas 2000 are way too late), Beavan left in 2001 I think.

nah, I can't tell at all. just putting together various pieces of information  "Chinese Whispers" at GNREvolution are invaluable source of info!

Edited June 13, 2018 by zombux

[wasted]

5 minutes ago, Wagszilla said:

 

Now I remember about Jackie/Checkmate/96 sessions. Possibly Axl kept this for himself and may be something Fortus was talking about in terms of nu Guns looking at older material, not just CD era stuff, Izzy said Axl kept 3-4 of his songs too. Down by the Ocean was the title Axl confirmed. 

[wasted]

Just now, zombux said:

yeah. the problem here is, there are numerous sessions between 1998 and 2008, with many many recordings of either whole songs, or just parts of them, and the album versions as well as leaked demos are quite possibly glued together from various sessions, so it's hard to tell exactly from which session is each of them - sometimes it's even impossible

 

Beavan joined in Autumn 1999, Bucket in 2000 (can't find exact time), Beavan left in 2001 I think.

nah, I can't tell at all. just putting together various pieces of information

Beavan finished recording in 99. The album was slated for release in 99. But Iovine didn’t like the raw sounds according to Tommy. So he convinced Axl to re-record it with the Queen producer. Bucket and Brain came in 2000. By 2001 they were “ready to mix” according Axl. Iovine on request of Axl gets Ezrin to judge. He says no go. 

A big problem is people are quoted the year after they leave. Beavan has quotes from 2001 but really his work was 98-99. 

The rec comp were pushing for a release so everything happened in a few years. From 2002-2004 they started re-recording with Costanzo. 

They got cut off in 2004. So from then on it was piecemeal. 

Costanzo did a session with Bucket where they did versions of Shackler’s, Scraped, Sorry, new solo on ITW. 

[action]

what a mess. "smile" levels of recording complexity.

less is more. I prefer the "raw" takes. lost opportunity. Story of their career.

[zombux]

1 minute ago, wasted said:

A big problem is people are quoted the year after they leave. Beavan has quotes from 2001 but really his work was 98-99. 

yeah. that makes me wondering if those "1999 demos" really are from 1999. those don't sound like Beavan mixes at all (check MM's Mechanical Animals from 1998 for reference) - on the other hand it might just be bad bootleg recording quality.

[wasted]

1 hour ago, zombux said:

yeah. that makes me wondering if those "1999 demos" really are from 1999. those don't sound like Beavan mixes at all (check MM's Mechanical Animals from 1998 for reference) - on the other hand it might just be bad bootleg recording quality.

Wow wikipedia entry is a shitshow. But

Tommy Stinson described the nature of the recording in a 2006 interview: "We did most of the music as a total collaborative effort a while back, most of the music was recorded (in 2001). In the last seven years, in the last four years (98-01), [the album]'s been pretty much done. It's been through a couple of producers' hands." ^[57]

 

which kind of fits what I was saying 2000-2001 is where most of the music was re-recorded. But the vocals are 3/4 Beavan 99. 

But if you look at the CD credits only Beavan is credited with recording anything but not with true production credits. Even RTB gets pre-production. In the end it was Produced by Axl and Costanzo. 

Costanzo is credited with Digital editing. So that plays into what you are saying, Costanzo might have had a Beavan recorded TWAT which he was editing or a RTB version with Bucket edited out. But Axl chose to use Bucket parts he liked for the album but there could have been one produced without Bucket for Ron to work on or for tour prep. 

Edited June 13, 2018 by wasted