Guns N' Roses & related STUDIO SESSIONS - a definitive collection of available info (?)

[Voodoochild]

1 minute ago, zombux said:

yep, I also noticed that the intro guitar riff is very similar to the Boston/Albany 2002 radio promo - not the very first opening riff but the second one which repeats a few seconds after the first one. very very similar riff - maybe just unprocessed (?)

too bad we have zero footage from the two december 01 Vegas shows, it would be interesting to see the progress... oh well.

Yeah, that sucks. I would love to hear if OMG and Silkworms were any different too. 

I didnt compare back to back the radio promo and the leak. But didnt the radio promo snippet only used the second riff anyways?

[zombux]

1 minute ago, Voodoochild said:

Yeah, that sucks. I would love to hear if OMG and Silkworms were any different too. 

I didnt compare back to back the radio promo and the leak. But didnt the radio promo snippet only used the second riff anyways?

it sounds like that, yes. after the riff the song goes right on so it might be the second one. or anything else frankensteined from multiple pieces. who knows?

[DTJ80]

Removed!

Edited June 1, 2020 by DTJ80

[zombux]

OK so I slowly (very slowly) started the update work on the sheet. I'm still not sure if I should keep IRS by Razz - the track seems to be identical to the Rough Mixes 3 one, but still I kinda feel like I should keep it together with other Razz files... 

massive thanks to @username for his sort-out job!

 

[DTJ80]

Good stuff - when will it be available (realise it's a big task)!?

[zombux]

15 hours ago, DTJ80 said:

Good stuff - when will it be available (realise it's a big task)!?

the google docs sheet linked somewhere above is always the "live" last version, the table in first post of this topic is updated regularly (OK, it's out of date at the moment LOL)

[zombux]

I'm still puzzled about how to integrate the old Razz leaks and Catcher. on one hand, IRS seems to be the exact same take as the one at Rough Mixes 3, also Checkmate leak seems to be the same as Hardschool at Rough Mixes 3. 

on the other hand, TWAT and Catcher are somewhat different and both noticeably lack one background guitar line, which might make them more "primitive" or just older.

on another hand, if we check Rough Mixes (160) disc, the TWAT there again doesn't include that additional guitar line, so that one might just have been used and not used as neccessary.

and on even another hand, I think both Razz leaks, old Catcher, March tracks from Rough Mixes and also some later tracks are old Beavan mixes taken as they were (proof? just check the TWAT "Old Beavan Mix" which is exactly the same as TWAT from Rough Mixes 1, which has October 2000 mixing date - weird as hell), and only some newly added Buckethead-influenced tracks are RTB job, plus the stuff from October seems to be newly mixed by RTB (as noted by those Ver.1 etc. notes) - those seem to be the first mixes at Village to me, as I understand the timeline as they only moved to Village sometime in September or October.

either way, what a fucking mess.

Edited October 12, 2019 by zombux

[zombux]

small edits here and there, added bits of info. I guess this is all we can do at this point.

[Blackstar]

@zombux what do you think about this?

There is confusion as to whether the “GN'R Mixes” DAT from Alan Niven tapes that include Q Sound mixes could be the Clearmountain mixes, because Bob Clearmountain's mixes aren't known to have circulated.

[zombux]

4 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

@zombux what do you think about this?

There is confusion as to whether the “GN'R Mixes” DAT from Alan Niven tapes that include Q Sound mixes could be the Clearmountain mixes, because Bob Clearmountain's mixes aren't known to have circulated.

well... hard to say, I don't have enough time to focus on this at the moment. but it depends if we have any timeframe when Bill was hired - so we could pinpoint the timeline better. 

at this point all we know is, when the Mixes with Q-Sound tape was recorded and mixed, but we don't know who mixed them. or do we?

[Blackstar]

2 minutes ago, zombux said:

well... hard to say, I don't have enough time to focus on this at the moment. but it depends if we have any timeframe when Bill was hired - so we could pinpoint the timeline better. 

at this point all we know is, when the Mixes with Q-Sound tape was recorded and mixed, but we don't know who mixed them. or do we?

Based on Alan Niven's quotes, according to which Bob Clearmountain was mixing the songs while Axl was living in the studio (which we know it was in late 1990 and at least until Christmas), the dates of the Q Sound mixes kind of fit. But on the other hand, like I said, Clearmountain's mixes are not known to have circulated and Alan Niven (where those tapes came from) claimed that he destroyed them.

[zombux]

updated mostly with pieces of very early 1985 GNR history (the timeline of the first rehearsals before the band went to play their first show and band member changes).

huge thanks to @Shackler's for invaluable help, more is to come.

[Sosso]

 

4 hours ago, zombux said:

updated mostly with pieces of very early 1985 GNR history (the timeline of the first rehearsals before the band went to play their first show and band member changes).

huge thanks to @Shackler's for invaluable help, more is to come.

@zombux

Rehearsal #4 was the first with Duff. They didn't had a bass player for Rehearsal #3 since Ole was absent. 

Edited June 1, 2020 by Sosso

[zombux]

1 minute ago, Sosso said:

 

@zombux

Rehearsal #4 was the first with Duff. They didn't had a bass player for Rehearsal #3 since Ole was absent. 

that would mean they did 5 rehearsals. because the last one according to Razz:

"With only enough time for two rehearsals before the debut show, Izzy
taught Duff most of the material at home, and everything got tightened
up at high decibels inside Wilpower Studios. Ole was surprised when I
broke the news to him, but didn’t argue or even ask me why until years
later."

so they did two rehearsals with Duff.

[Sosso]

Just now, zombux said:

that would mean they did 5 rehearsals. because the last one according to Razz:

"With only enough time for two rehearsals before the debut show, Izzy
taught Duff most of the material at home, and everything got tightened
up at high decibels inside Wilpower Studios. Ole was surprised when I
broke the news to him, but didn’t argue or even ask me why until years
later."

so they did two rehearsals with Duff.

Raz Cue said in the podcast that it was the fourth rehearsal and Duff's very first with the band. 

First two rehearsals - Ole on bass

Third rehearsal - Ole is absent

Jam Session from Izzy and Duff 

Fourth rehearsal - Duff on bass

[zombux]

so you're saying the Raz interview rehearsal was also the last one and the first Duff session was just with Izzy? I got lost in that.

[Sosso]

Just now, zombux said:

so you're saying the Raz interview rehearsal was also the last one and the first Duff session was just with Izzy? I got lost in that.

Yes, that's what I'm saying. Which just means that Izzy showed Duff all of the material before introducing him to the band at the next rehearsal. 

[zombux]

Just now, Sosso said:

Yes, that's what I'm saying. Which just means that Izzy showed Duff all of the material before introducing him to the band at the next rehearsal. 

but still there's that quote about "time for two rehearsals before the show". are you sure?

[Sosso]

Just now, zombux said:

but still there's that quote about "time for two rehearsals before the show". are you sure?

Maybe that's what he meant with "two rehearsals"? 

[Sosso]

@zombux Either way, Ole was missing the third rehearsal and Duff was introduced shortly after that. 

"After that second practice, another rehearsal was set for a tentative of 'in a few days'. Ole neglected to tell anyone of his newest girlfriend, so when the next practice was sheduled, there was no way to get ahold of him. After three days of no one hearing from him, Izzy said: If Ole doesn't want to be in the band, there's a guy who lives across the street from me who'll do the show'" (The Days of Guns, N & Raz's, p.199).

 

[Shackler's]

44 minutes ago, Sosso said:

 

@zombux

Rehearsal #4 was the first with Duff. They didn't had a bass player for Rehearsal #3 since Ole was absent. 

I also suspected that they rehearsed without a bassist, but after reading Raz's book, it seems like they brought in Duff before the third rehearsal, as Ole wasn't responding at all and after three days of no response Izzy brought in Duff and Ole was basically fired.

"After that second practice, another rehearsal was set for a tentative 'in a few days.' Ole neglected to tell anyone of his newest girlfriend, so when the next practice got scheduled, there was no way to get ahold of him. After three days of no one hearing from him, and rehearsal scheduled for the following evening, Izzy said, 'If Ole doesn’t want to be in the band, there’s a guy who lives across the street from me who’ll do the show.'"

"With only enough time for two rehearsals before the debut show, Izzy taught Duff most of the material at home, and everything got tightened up at high decibels inside Wilpower Studios"

So, unless you count that session with Duff and Izzy at home, there's only four documented rehearsals.

Edited June 1, 2020 by Shackler's

[zombux]

=> this only implicates that they either did one rehearsal (#3) without a bass player, then Duff jammed with Izzy and then they did the rehearsal we know of (#4) which was the final one, or they skipped the #3 rehearsal completely and counted the Izzy/Duff jam as a rehearsal. otherwise Raz saying that rehearsal was #4 doesn't make sense.

[Shackler's]

UPDATE: "We were supposed to rehearse Thursdays." [Tracii Guns, Ultimate-guitar.com, 2017]

I'll update this list as I get more research done.

 

(Likely dates are marked using italics)

A timeline (my interpretation by reading Raz's book and piecing together history):

1985.03.xx - First-ever GN'R rehearsal [Mates Rehearsal or WillPower Studios w/ Ole - This was somewhere after Hollywood Rose's March 7 gig] [Kevin B tape, Don't Cry excerpt leak].

1985.03.14 - Second GN'R rehearsal [WillPower Studios, the band took a bunch of photos after this one, w/ Ole. If the previous rehearsal took place at WillPower, this rehearsal could also be where the Don't Cry excerpt leak is from - the only separating factor of the two is the studio].

1985.03.xx - Third rehearsal is scheduled by the band minus Ole.

1985.03.xx - Ole hasn't responded for three days so Izzy suggests they bring in Duff.

1985.03.20 - Izzy teaches Duff material at home the day before the rehearsal.

1985.03.21 - Third rehearsal takes place at WillPower Studios with Duff [Raz Recording - possibly only rehearsed songs used in KPFK Interview].

1985.03.21 - KPFK radio interview [Ad from March 22 in L.A. Weekly confirms it aired Sunday March 24]

1985.03.xx - Duff and Izzy go through more material at home [Possibly the rest of the setlist for their debut show].

1985.03.xx - Fourth rehearsal before first-ever GN'R show. [Possibly rehearsed all songs this time, as Duff has learned all the material by now]

1985.03.26 - GN'R plays the Troubadour.

 

I doubt Raz would just skip the supposed rehearsal without Ole in his book, Raz is a big fan of Ole's and I'm sure he'd also mention that the band rehearsed without him and his feelings towards Ole at the time.

Raz further explains that the bassist switch happened very hastily:

(Quotes are in chronological order)

Quote

Raz Cue: "After three days of no one hearing from him, and rehearsal scheduled for the following evening, Izzy said, 'If Ole doesn’t want to be in the band, there’s a guy who lives across the street from me who’ll do the show.'"

This is where Duff and Izzy went through material at home.

Quote

Raz Cue: "the next night, Izzy showed up to Wilpower Studios to introduce Duff Rose."

This is where the 1st rehearsal and KPFK interview takes place.

Quote

Raz Cue: "With only enough time for two rehearsals before the debut show [the previous one and a future one], Izzy taught Duff most of the material at home, and everything got tightened
up at high decibels inside Wilpower Studios [second rehearsal w/ Duff]."

This is possibly where Duff and Izzy went through even more material at home in preparation for the show.
This is where the 2nd rehearsal with Duff takes place.
And, finally they play the Troubadour.

Edited June 1, 2020 by Shackler's

[Sosso]

Tracii said in an Interview that rehearsals were usually on thursdays. 

1985.03.14 - Second GN'R rehearsal [WillPower Studios, the band took a bunch of photos after this one, w/ Ole. If the previous rehearsal took place at WillPower, this rehearsal could also be where the Don't Cry leak is from - the only separating factor of the two is the studio].

1985.03.21 - Third rehearsal takes place at WillPower Studios with Duff [Raz Recording - possibly only rehearsed songs used in KPFK Interview].

 

[Rodri99]

7 hours ago, Shackler's said:

1985.03.xx - First-ever GN'R rehearsal [Mates Rehearsal or WillPower Studios w/ Ole] [Kevin B tape, Don't Cry leak].

1985.03.xx - Second GN'R rehearsal [WillPower Studios, the band took a bunch of photos after this one, w/ Ole. If the previous rehearsal took place at WillPower, this rehearsal could also be where the Don't Cry leak is from - the only separating factor of the two is the studio].

Which leak are you talking about? Never heard about that Kevin B tape.

Edited June 2, 2020 by Rodri99