Guns N' Roses & related STUDIO SESSIONS - a definitive collection of available info (?)

[zombux]

great to have such a discussion here, guys! I wonder if for example @Mendez is still visitting this place, he might also have some info how to make this list better

[donny]

going off topic a little here but seems like the best place to ask.

how many versions of sympathy for the devil where recorded ? 

as far as i can work out Slash added his own personal touch to the song but Axl wasn't happy about it and got Tobias to re-do some of Slash's parts to make it sound more like the original stones version. is that correct ? if so then a Slash only version that sounds different to the released version must exist, has it ever leaked ? 

[zombux]

1 minute ago, Gibbo said:

I have it somewhere

no need to anymore

5 minutes ago, donny said:

going off topic a little here but seems like the best place to ask.

how many versions of sympathy for the devil where recorded ? 

as far as i can work out Slash added his own personal touch to the song but Axl wasn't happy about it and got Tobias to re-do some of Slash's parts to make it sound more like the original stones version. is that correct ? if so then a Slash only version that sounds different to the released version must exist, has it ever leaked ? 

as far as I remember, only Slash was on the track, and later Axl had Paul Huge adding guitar line to it ("ghostly response guitar"). still it had to be the very same take from October 1994.

[Blackstar]

5 hours ago, Nikki_Sixx said:

Ok, it was a misunderstanding then, I apologize if I offended you.

It's ok, I wasn't offended

5 hours ago, Nikki_Sixx said:

Edit: Also, remember we are on the internet, it's not always easy to read someone's 'vibe' when you're not talking face to face ...

True. It's also easy to miss the context of a post when reading through a thread with many posts.

[zombux]

well... so now guys... we'll need to find some consensus about the two tracks. one of you thinks that it's from Sound City, the other dares to think that it's actually from Pasha. 

the truth is, these have never been on any bootleg, right? so it's very hard to check any reels or stuff like that and we have to guess.

we only know ("for sure" - if something like that can exist), that there indeed were multiple takes of both HH and NB during Sound City.

[zombux]

table updated and reworked (mostly in the UYI Sessions section).

[Sergeanur]

Concerning UYI Tracks - how much of a difference should it have for N/A in "Officially released" column?

Attitude (Instrumental) wasn't used for TSI. Duff rerecorded all the instruments for the album.
14 Years listed as N/A even though instrumentally it's the same as the album.

You Ain't The First from the mixes - how much of an alternate take is it? Sounds about the same minus Shannon on the first verse, Don't Cry from this boot has the same amount of differences. Right channel is missing on the whole bootleg.
All Q-Sound mixes listed as N/A, they're not that much different from non-Q-Sound, just stuff from right channel (which is missing) is faintly audible.

Should difference for Garden Of Eden from "Axl's Advanced Copy" be noted? It's missing background vocals and Izzy guitar was untouched (not overdubbed by Slash).
Different vocals for Don't Damn Me too (already mentioned above).

[Nikki_Sixx]

6 minutes ago, Sergeanur said:

Concerning UYI Tracks - how much of a difference should it have for N/A in "Officially released" column?

Attitude (Instrumental) wasn't used for TSI. Duff rerecorded all the instruments for the album.
14 Years listed as N/A even though instrumentally it's the same as the album.

You Ain't The First from the mixes - how much of an alternate take is it? Sounds about the same minus Shannon on the first verse, Don't Cry from this boot has the same amount of differences. Right channel is missing on the whole bootleg.
All Q-Sound mixes listed as N/A, they're not that much different from non-Q-Sound, just stuff from right channel (which is missing) is faintly audible.

Should difference for Garden Of Eden from "Axl's Advanced Copy" be noted? It's missing background vocals and Izzy guitar was untouched (not overdubbed by Slash).
Different vocals for Don't Damn Me too (already mentioned above).

Interesting !

First off, let me state clearly that I'm not under the impression that I know everything !   

It's just fun stuff to discuss and 'investigate' ...

- Where did you get the idea that only Duff plays on 'Attitude' ?  The TSI liner lotes list the full band, and many interviews have confirmed that Gilby re-recorded Izzy's TSI tracks.

- 'You Ain't The First' from the Q-sound DAT is an alt. vocal take, the whole of Izzy's vocal is different from the officially released version, and also, like you said, the backing vocals differ.  The instrumental backing track, hmm, I would have to check more thoroughly.

- Izzy definitely plays rythm on the officially released version of 'Garden Of Eden', you must be thinking of 'The Garden', where Slash replaced Izzy's guitar ?

[zombux]

@Sergeanur hard to say here to be honest. with everything scattered to pieces during UYI era, the Officially released column is only vague. I'll think about improving the thing later.

I've been listening to the alternate takes today actually, it seems like some vocals and instruments in YATF sound exactly like album version, just some others are different.

that Pretty Tied Up from the Q-sound tapes sound exactly like album version, just the intro is complete and it must have been shortened and faded out on the album only, I think.

about Q-Sound, I just did it this way to emphasize the fact, that the Q-sound mixes have not been used in the end. of course probably also the "normal mixes" are not the final product. 

damn, this is quite complicated for a simple table I originally made

 

I've made one little more edit, with including Look At Your Game, Girl (based on Trent Reznor's autobiography, Marilyn Manson made Axl interested in Charles Manson stuff sometimes in May 1993)

I've also moved the two Civil War "sessions" before the main Civil War recording sessions, assuming those two must have been recorded before the album version.

[NeonKinight]

15 minutes ago, zombux said:

I've made one little more edit, with including Look At Your Game, Girl (based on Trent Reznor's autobiography, Marilyn Manson made Axl interested in Charles Manson stuff sometimes in May 1993)

They've met?

[zombux]

Just now, NeonKinight said:

They've met?

my source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Look_at_Your_Game,_Girl#Guns_N'_Roses_version (I know, not very reliable, but this is probably true)

[Sergeanur]

14 minutes ago, Nikki_Sixx said:

Where did you get the idea that only Duff plays on 'Attitude' ?

Whoops, I was wrong, had that mixed with You Can't Put Your Arms... Either way album version has rerecorded instumentals.

16 minutes ago, Nikki_Sixx said:

- Izzy definitely plays rythm on the officially released version of 'Garden Of Eden', you must be thinking of 'The Garden', where Slash replaced Izzy's guitar ?

Slash didn't overdub the whole thing, only verses. First verse entierly and about half of second an third (they end at "sometimes when I look out" and " I ain't superstitious"). In fact, just play only left channel of the song - cuts are super obvious.

[Nikki_Sixx]

5 minutes ago, Sergeanur said:

Whoops, I was wrong, had that mixed with You Can't Put Your Arms... Either way album version has rerecorded instumentals.

Slash didn't overdub the whole thing, only verses. First verse entierly and about half of second an third (they end at "sometimes when I look out" and " I ain't superstitious"). In fact, just play only left channel of the song - cuts are super obvious.

Good idea, I'll pull the track up in audacity and play Izzy's channel solo.  Had never noticed this about 'Garden Of Eden', thanks for the tip !

[Nikki_Sixx]

15 hours ago, zombux said:

well... so now guys... we'll need to find some consensus about the two tracks. one of you thinks that it's from Sound City, the other dares to think that it's actually from Pasha. 

the truth is, these have never been on any bootleg, right? so it's very hard to check any reels or stuff like that and we have to guess.

we only know ("for sure" - if something like that can exist), that there indeed were multiple takes of both HH and NB during Sound City.

ok, for 'Nice Boys', listen to what the rythm guitars are playing in the verses.

-> on the Pasha recording : both guitars play single power chords together

-> on the Sound City recording : one guitar plays single power chords, the other plays a more rythmic continuous pattern with the same chords

now listen to 'Nice Boys' from the Many Faces Of GNR compilation

(which to my ears has the correct pitch but runs too fast, hence the shorter running time and weird tempo)

-> both guitars play single power chords together, just like the Pasha recording, and unlike Sound City

 

Yes, there are no backing vocals on the Many Faces track, in my opinion because they disregarded this take since Axl is singing out of sync with the music at several points.  The backing vocals on the offiically released Pasha version are not live, and were added as an overdub on the better/final take.

[Underhardy]

20 hours ago, donny said:

going off topic a little here but seems like the best place to ask.

how many versions of sympathy for the devil where recorded ? 

as far as i can work out Slash added his own personal touch to the song but Axl wasn't happy about it and got Tobias to re-do some of Slash's parts to make it sound more like the original stones version. is that correct ? if so then a Slash only version that sounds different to the released version must exist, has it ever leaked ? 

There is only 1 version. Axl had Paul just add onto the original slash track. 

[Sergeanur]

Check out this Nice Boys intro comparison, note the sound of drums and bass line

 

[RussTCB]

Just stopped in to say this thread is such a fun read! It's really cool to see the level of detail some of you know. When I read stuff like this thread it makes me realize that I know about 10% of what most of you know!

[TheSeeker]

3 hours ago, Underhardy said:

There is only 1 version. Axl had Paul just add onto the original slash track. 

But Slash said in an interview that he did his own take on the solo, but Axl made him go back and re-do it like the Stones solo

So I'm guessing his original take is in the vault somewhere

edit:

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/flashback-guns-n-roses-cover-sympathy-for-the-devil-99403/

Quote

The sessions were an absolute nightmare. Axl was never in the studio the same time as the band, who contributed what Slash calls a “very uninspired track.” Through handlers, Axl insisted that Slash redo his guitar solo so it sounded more like the Keith Richards original. “That was the last thing I wanted to do,” Slash wrote. “Keith’s playing is so awesome on that song that I didn’t want to even come near it, but I did. And doing so left me feeling even more pissed and put out than ever.”

 

Edited July 8, 2018 by TheSeeker

[Blackstar]

12 hours ago, zombux said:

I've made one little more edit, with including Look At Your Game, Girl (based on Trent Reznor's autobiography, Marilyn Manson made Axl interested in Charles Manson stuff sometimes in May 1993)

Hmm... If it was in Trent Reznor's autobiography I'd consider it more reliable, but it's in Marilyn Manson's autobiography, so I'm taking it with a grain of salt.

I doesn't matter much for the table, since I don't think it was recorded earlier than May anyway.

When MM claims that conversation took place, GnR and U2 were touring Europe (their schedules didn't coincide as much as in 1992) and Trent Reznor and Marilyn Manson weren't touring (MM toured in the US until May 1st 1993 and then again in September); unless Trent and MM were together on vacation in Europe. MM mentioned that meeting again and claimed that Axl didn't know anything about Charles Manson at the time, although he already wore the Manson t-shirt.

There was another claim as to when and how Axl heard the Manson song (apart from his own account that he heard it from his brother Stuart during a music trivia game). The Lemmons brothers, the guys who had launched the "Charlie don't surf" t-shirt Axl wore (they are in the "thank you" notes of TSI as one of the "companies who have worked with us"), said Axl invited them to the shooting of the Estranged video (around August 1993, I think) and that was where they played the Manson tape  for him and Axl loved the song. I don't consider them reliable either, as they were asking to be interviewed after the release of TSI and the Manson song controversy seeking publicity for their business (plus they were shady characters). And there is a "special thanks" to Stuart in the liner notes "for historic and artistic consultation".

Regardless of the claims and of when Axl heard the song, my guess is that it was recorded after the UYI tour ended, because I don't think Axl would bring his gardener from L.A. to wherever they played just to record it.

Edited July 8, 2018 by Blackstar

[Blackstar]

More about Look At Your Game, Girl:

According to this quote from Slash, Axl recorded it at the time (or a little before) TSI was at the mixing stage:

Axl put this song on and had some other guitar player play on it and he called me on the phone. I was mixing the record at the time and I was looking forward to it being really cool. And he calls me up and plays this thing on the phone and I said, "Yeah, whatever," and then he told me it was a Manson song. We didn't know who wrote it; we had word that Dennis Wilson from The Beach Boys wrote it. I didn't want to deal with it, being the politically mild guy that I am, so I said, "Whatever" and I buried it in the mix – I put it two minutes after the last song and it's not listed.

http://www.a-4-d.com/t2916-1995-02-dd-guitar-trigger-with-attitude-slash

[MJ23]

Offtopic:

Fun fact is also that Slash didn't play on "Look At Your Game, Girl".

[Blackstar]

I just noticed that Gilby isn't playing on Ain't It Fun and all guitars are done by Slash. A guy that did some of the illustrations in the UYI booklet, Mike Staggs, is credited for "additional guitar".

Maybe that means that Izzy wasn't present at the recording of the song during the UYI sessions, Slash did all the guitar parts and they used that other guy as well, so the released version on TSI is the same as the original recording? Who knows.

[NeonKinight]

just to know :

Is it true that, in "greatest hits", paul tobias is playing one half of the guitar solo, and slash the other one?

[Annabelle]

And people still think only the CD recording and revolving doors of musicians was a big mess. 

[PrimosPeppers]

9 hours ago, Sergeanur said:

Check out this Nice Boys intro comparison, note the sound of drums and bass line

 

I'm not sure if it's been brought up yet here, but.... Sound City was cut live to 2 track tape.  So, Manny got the mix as best he could live and let the guys rip.  So, you can't do much with a 2 track recording other than mastering.  Pasha on the other hand was multitracked, giving the engineers the ability to make adjustments afterward.  This is often most apparent in the hardest thing to record properly in a studio....drums!  Of course it's not the 1st demo, but you get the point.

 

 

 

Edited July 8, 2018 by PrimosPeppers