UYI box>AFD box

[ludurigan]

6 hours ago, UsedYourIllusion said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mixonline.com/.amp/recording/bill-price-interview-375769

fascinating read, thanks!

you mentioned they "re-recorded" everything but i supposed you misunderstood "re-mixing" with "re-recording", right?

as far as i understood, they didnt re-record anything, they just threw away the Bob Clearmountain mixes, right?

 

They got Bob Clearmountain to mix it in one studio whilst Axl was still doing vocals in another studio and Slash doing guitars in a third. Which was, quite obviously, a recipe for chaos. I think Bob mixed about 20 songs, but he had absolutely no contact with the band, because they were recording other stuff in other studios. And basically what happened, if Axl liked the mix, Slash didn't, and if Slash liked the mix, Axl didn't. So Bob never really had the chance to work with the band. Geffen was pressuring to get the album finished, so Tom Zutaut persuaded me to come out to L.A. and mix it.

 

anyway that was a priceless interview!

[RONIN]

It's amazing how a rookie band like Nirvana with probably 1/5 of GnR's recording budget had such a kickass mix with Nevermind that still stands the test of time. And then you have UYI which had all this money thrown at it and multiple mixes and it still sounded dated and crap within a few years. Michael Jackson's Dangerous, another overproduced album, had the same issues - the mix is bleh. It's like the more money Axl and MJ threw at their albums, the smaller and more dated the sound became. 

Reminds me of that old Slash quote from the mid-90's where he talks about how he kept telling Axl that the more he overproduced the songs, the smaller and less epic they sounded. 

[Sydney Fan]

8 minutes ago, RONIN said:

It's amazing how a rookie band like Nirvana with probably 1/5 of GnR's recording budget had such a kickass mix with Nevermind that still stands the test of time. And then you have UYI which had all this money thrown at it and multiple mixes and it still sounded dated and crap within a few years. Michael Jackson's Dangerous, another overproduced album, had the same issues - the mix is bleh. It's like the more money Axl and MJ threw at their albums, the smaller and more dated the sound became. 

Reminds me of that old Slash quote from the mid-90's where he talks about how he kept telling Axl that the more he overproduced the songs, the smaller and less epic they sounded. 

I think from memory nevermind was recorded in a run down studio in seattle that apparently dave grohl bought the mixing console some time ago as part of a biography that was released about that particular studio where all the seattle bands recorded. Considering illusions was mixed at record plant studios im sure the studio had top notch equipment. So technology couldnt be an excuse for illusions sounding some what dated.....

Edited August 28, 2018 by Sydney Fan

[UsedYourIllusion]

2 hours ago, RONIN said:

It's amazing how a rookie band like Nirvana with probably 1/5 of GnR's recording budget had such a kickass mix with Nevermind that still stands the test of time. And then you have UYI which had all this money thrown at it and multiple mixes and it still sounded dated and crap within a few years. Michael Jackson's Dangerous, another overproduced album, had the same issues - the mix is bleh. It's like the more money Axl and MJ threw at their albums, the smaller and more dated the sound became. 

Reminds me of that old Slash quote from the mid-90's where he talks about how he kept telling Axl that the more he overproduced the songs, the smaller and less epic they sounded. 

Maybe that's why Axl wanted the drums on CD to sound like Nevermind lol. It might just be the mix, some songs sound good. Like estranged, civil war, the garden. But on top of that, some songs just need to be stripped down, i.e. Perfect Crime, Garden of Eden, Dust N' Bones etc.

[Azifwekare]

On 28/08/2018 at 2:04 AM, UsedYourIllusion said:

Reverb? I mean, you can hear it slightly on Rocket Queen, but I've always felt the drums were amazing sounding on appetite? Example?

You can't hear it? The whole album is drowning in it. It's so dated that anyone not familiar with it would be able to pinpoint the exact year it was mixed. Even Axl complained about it, and cited it as one of his reasons for redoing it with the new band. 

[UsedYourIllusion]

8 minutes ago, Azifwekare said:

You can't hear it? The whole album is drowning in it. It's so dated that anyone not familiar with it would be able to pinpoint the exact year it was mixed. Even Axl complained about it, and cited it as one of his reasons for redoing it with the new band. 

What? I'm confused.. the reverb sounds like a normal album 😂 this isn't "in the air tonight"

[Fashionista]

On 8/27/2018 at 1:47 AM, RONIN said:

I'd pay top dollar for a great UYI "naked" mixes remaster with Adler's drumming semi-restored and Izzy louder in the mix.

I want to hear the Illusions as it was originally conceived before Axl raped it in the studio with his bloatware and added Sorum's shit drumming.

It's highly likely that outside of rehearsals, Civil War was the only song Steven actually recorded for those records. Unless you cut his drum parts from rehearsal takes, digitally toy with them timing wise and such to fit the finished versions, you're not gonna get Steven on there. And even if you did do all that, would it be a real performance, in a sense? It would be Steven's performance as cobbled together by computers. "Axl" didn't add Sorum's "shit drumming." Slash and Duff chose Matt to replace Steven, who could not master the new material, and who due to drugs could not function in the studio.

[Fashionista]

On 8/27/2018 at 11:16 PM, RONIN said:

It's amazing how a rookie band like Nirvana with probably 1/5 of GnR's recording budget had such a kickass mix with Nevermind that still stands the test of time. And then you have UYI which had all this money thrown at it and multiple mixes and it still sounded dated and crap within a few years. Michael Jackson's Dangerous, another overproduced album, had the same issues - the mix is bleh. It's like the more money Axl and MJ threw at their albums, the smaller and more dated the sound became. 

Reminds me of that old Slash quote from the mid-90's where he talks about how he kept telling Axl that the more he overproduced the songs, the smaller and less epic they sounded. 

The UYIs were never gonna sound like Nevermind. Totally different bands, genres and methodologies.  Even AFD is overproduced sounding compared to Nevermind. The only truly raw record GN'R ever did was Lies. The production for the UYIs fit the music/songs.

[Azifwekare]

16 minutes ago, UsedYourIllusion said:

What? I'm confused.. the reverb sounds like a normal album 😂 this isn't "in the air tonight"

It's mixed in the same way as one of those crappy hair metal bands. The songs rock obviously, but the drum sound in particular is awful. 

[UsedYourIllusion]

37 minutes ago, Azifwekare said:

It's mixed in the same way as one of those crappy hair metal bands. The songs rock obviously, but the drum sound in particular is awful. 

I personally think it sounds more like Rocks by Aerosmith than Quiet Riot or Poison...

[Fashionista]

3 hours ago, UsedYourIllusion said:

I personally think it sounds more like Rocks by Aerosmith than Quiet Riot or Poison...

It sounds more like Pump than Rocks. Go listen to AFD and Nevermind back to back. AFD sounds horribly dated and overproduced by comparison, like it came out 2 decades before rather than 4 years.

[baldek]

What?

I bet the next one coming here, is going to complain about the riffs being too dated.

This is unbelievable.

[Legendador]

And then people here gets pissed off about TEAM BRAZIL saying there's too many complaints.

The AFD box set is not even three months old and people are alreay complaining about the sound, or even already saying how a supposed UYI box set should be.

Are you people never happy with nothing?

First was Slash not in the band, now is Izzy not in the band, then I hear people complaining about Ashba not being in the band, and then they complain because the new mix is this or that, or because there's no One in a Million in it, they complain about the price, the setlist, even about Axl not having a mustache anymore. The rasp, no rasp, fat, not fat.

COMPLAINTS, COMPLAINTS, COMPLAINTS.

Enjoy what we have because we have more than a lot of bands out there! Van Halen is doing shit, Motley Crue - end, Metallica - one bad record after the other, Iron Mainden - zzzzzz, Ozzy Osbourne gives a 45 to 60 minutes performance, Skid Row - LAME...

Enjoy it for God's sake!

[Ratam]

35 minutes ago, Legendador said:

And then people here gets pissed off about TEAM BRAZIL saying there's too many complaints.

The AFD box set is not even three months old and people are alreay complaining about the sound, or even already saying how a supposed UYI box set should be.

Are you people never happy with nothing?

First was Slash not in the band, now is Izzy not in the band, then I hear people complaining about Ashba not being in the band, and then they complain because the new mix is this or that, or because there's no One in a Million in it, they complain about the price, the setlist, even about Axl not having a mustache anymore. The rasp, no rasp, fat, not fat.

COMPLAINTS, COMPLAINTS, COMPLAINTS.

Enjoy what we have because we have more than a lot of bands out there! Van Halen is doing shit, Motley Crue - end, Metallica - one bad record after the other, Iron Mainden - zzzzzz, Ozzy Osbourne gives a 45 to 60 minutes performance, Skid Row - LAME...

Enjoy it for God's sake!

Great diagnosis 

[Azifwekare]

1 hour ago, Legendador said:

First was Slash not in the band, now is Izzy not in the band

This is what blows my mind - after 20 years, hell freezes over and not just Duff, but muthafukkin SLASH(!!!) rejoin GnR, but who cares because it ain't the real GnR without Izzy and Steven ("It's just A/S/D & friends").  Some people will never be happy.

1 hour ago, Legendador said:

then I hear people complaining about Ashba not being in the band

He's better than the old one, after all. Wait, you mean to tell me you don't have the standard Ashba full back tattoo? You're not a real GnR fan.

[DTJ80]

1 hour ago, Legendador said:

And then people here gets pissed off about TEAM BRAZIL saying there's too many complaints.

The AFD box set is not even three months old and people are alreay complaining about the sound, or even already saying how a supposed UYI box set should be.

Are you people never happy with nothing?

First was Slash not in the band, now is Izzy not in the band, then I hear people complaining about Ashba not being in the band, and then they complain because the new mix is this or that, or because there's no One in a Million in it, they complain about the price, the setlist, even about Axl not having a mustache anymore. The rasp, no rasp, fat, not fat.

COMPLAINTS, COMPLAINTS, COMPLAINTS.

Enjoy what we have because we have more than a lot of bands out there! Van Halen is doing shit, Motley Crue - end, Metallica - one bad record after the other, Iron Mainden - zzzzzz, Ozzy Osbourne gives a 45 to 60 minutes performance, Skid Row - LAME...

Enjoy it for God's sake!

Metallica doing one bad record after another???? Totally disagree on that - Hardwired is really good (with a couple of duffers to be fair). Death Magnetic just suffered from poor production but was a strong effort. St Anger was......eh..not great tho!

[RONIN]

12 hours ago, Fashionista said:

It's highly likely that outside of rehearsals, Civil War was the only song Steven actually recorded for those records. Unless you cut his drum parts from rehearsal takes, digitally toy with them timing wise and such to fit the finished versions, you're not gonna get Steven on there. And even if you did do all that, would it be a real performance, in a sense? It would be Steven's performance as cobbled together by computers.

Yeah - that's what I mean, cobbling from the Mates rehearsals and whatever scraps are left from the innumerable studio sessions Steven fucked up and stitch it together. A better solution would be to include Steven in the process and have him work off what's already there. It may not be a real performance per se, but it would perhaps hew closer to what UYI should have originally been (ideally). Besides, the drumming on Civil War isn't a real performance from Steven either, just an umpteen number of blown takes stitched together - and it sounds great to my ears. 

Quote

"Axl" didn't add Sorum's "shit drumming." Slash and Duff chose Matt to replace Steven, who could not master the new material, and who due to drugs could not function in the studio.

You're right, it was a band decision - and a bad one imho. Time and public opinion weigh heavily in favor of Adler over Sorum. You won't find many critics (or fans) lauding the drumming on Illusions. Even Brain has been public about his admiration for Steven's playing while being dismissive of Sorum. It's true that Steven was too messed up to play -  I just wish they had waited for the guy given how those albums turned out. Illusions was already delayed extensively by Axl and that's a huge reason for Izzy's loss of interest in the material. Point being, they could have waited longer for him to clean his act up but realistically, Steven was by far the most expendable member in the group (ironically though, he is one of the most crucial elements to their sound as Izzy once remarked).

12 hours ago, Fashionista said:

The UYIs were never gonna sound like Nevermind. Totally different bands, genres and methodologies.  Even AFD is overproduced sounding compared to Nevermind. The only truly raw record GN'R ever did was Lies. The production for the UYIs fit the music/songs.

I didn't mean that they needed to sound raw like Nevermind (though that would have been nice). I mean simply that Nevermind's sound hasn't dated as badly as UYI. Another well produced record of that time (imho) was the black album from Metallica - even though it's very polished and strays from their rawer sounds, the mix really hasn't aged too badly. There's a contemporary quality to Nevermind and TBA that is missing in UYI. You could say that could be because of stylistic reasons and that would be fair - but a great mix could have really helped to mask some of that. And it could help immensely with the way Sorum's sound is captured. He sounds so much better on TSI and SFTD. 

Edited August 29, 2018 by RONIN

[Blackstar]

5 hours ago, RONIN said:

It's true that Steven was too messed up to play -  I just wish they had waited for the guy given how those albums turned out. Illusions was already delayed extensively by Axl and that's a huge reason for Izzy's loss of interest in the material. Point being, they could have waited longer for him to clean his act up but realistically, Steven was by far the most expendable member in the group (ironically though, he is one of the most crucial elements to their sound as Izzy once remarked).

Much of the delay was because of Axl eventually, yes. But the thing is that it doesn't seem that there was a problem with Axl at the time they had to deal with the Steven issue. The band had started getting together after the Stones gigs. By early 1990 the new songs were completed and mostly arranged, Axl had written lyrics/melodies for most (probably only Coma was left), and they were seemingly ready to get into the studio. The only problem at the time was Steven's situation. So they thought that if they solved that issue, they could start recording. They tried other drummers, it didn't work, and then they came up with Steven's "probation contract". They played Farm Aid, recorded Civil War, and then they got Sorum. Still, although they had gotten Sorum rehearsing already in April-May 1990, they left a 3-months window for Steven until they finally fired him in July. So there was already an about 7-month delay because of the drummer issue.

The band finally got into the studio in August-September 1990. Matt's, Duff' and Izzy's parts were completed within a month, then Slash went to do his guitars for another 1-1,5 month. Axl started doing vocals, piano and synths while Slash was recording his parts. He had booked the studio 24/7 for the band and probably spent days working on November Rain only, putting together the synths/fake orchestras. He had actually moved and lived in there, continuing recording after Slash had finished his basic parts - some days went reportedly with little or no recording because he was depressed. When a good portion of songs were completed, likely by the end of 1990-early 1991, they got Bob Clearmountain to mix, while Axl was still recording vocals  and Slash was doing probably overdubs for the rest of the songs. Alan Niven has said that Axl was still living in the studio and was over Clearmountain's head. The band (Axl and Slash basically), however, couldn't get together and see eye-to-eye about the mixes and there were many tracks for each song to mix. (Bill Price interview). That process had taken some more time. Eventually, they weren't happy with Clearmountain's work (too polished, according to Niven), so they got Bill Price and started all over with the mixes. Bill Price had the same problem with the multiple tracks for each song and getting the band together. In the meantime, the band went on tour while about 6 songs weren't yet recorded (probably the overdubs) and were finished on the road.

The Bill Price mix should have been guaranteed good considering his back record, but maybe the endeavour was so complicated, as he described it ("That's about the most complicated mix, both musically, technically and people-wise, I've ever done in my life.") that was difficult even for him.   

Edited August 30, 2018 by Blackstar

[Euchre]

On 27/08/2018 at 6:47 PM, RONIN said:

I'd pay top dollar for a great UYI "naked" mixes remaster with Adler's drumming semi-restored and Izzy louder in the mix.

I want to hear the Illusions as it was originally conceived before Axl raped it in the studio with his bloatware and added Sorum's shit drumming.

I've thought about this before as well.....pick the dozen songs that the band like the best, strip them back, have Adler re-record the drums and Izzy record rhythm where he was cut out, mix it afresh in a rawer way and have it sound like it should have if all the drama didn't happen (ie a genuine GNR effort).

Axl takes the remainders and modernise and package them however he likes. EP of all the ballads would work for some for example - and a series of EP's was one of the bands original intents.

Package it up with the original re-mastered or whatever so you aren't trying to erase history (as much as I personally don't care for Sorum/Reed, I think it would be silly to try and pretend they didn't exist or contribute - and the piano does work on some songs) and you've got the beginnings of an interesting anniversary box set - and will settle a lot of stuff once and for all.

[Apollo]

On 8/27/2018 at 6:48 PM, Azifwekare said:

Apart from the horrid 80s reverb on the drums. I love AFD, but I've always hated the dated mix. That's why I've always wanted to hear the updated 1999 recording.

A CD box would be epic. We'd get much more new music on there than a AFD and UYI box put together. At least we actually would get "49 unreleased songs" instead of 2 new songs and 47 demos that used to be on YouTube (including 40 different versions of You're Crazy) - not forgetting the "new single" which is actually a 30 year old demo of a 25 year old b-side.

But would we get eight different versions of IRS on it? And would they spell band members names incorrectly?

[Apollo]

9 hours ago, Legendador said:

And then people here gets pissed off about TEAM BRAZIL saying there's too many complaints.

The AFD box set is not even three months old and people are alreay complaining about the sound, or even already saying how a supposed UYI box set should be.

Are you people never happy with nothing?

First was Slash not in the band, now is Izzy not in the band, then I hear people complaining about Ashba not being in the band, and then they complain because the new mix is this or that, or because there's no One in a Million in it, they complain about the price, the setlist, even about Axl not having a mustache anymore. The rasp, no rasp, fat, not fat.

COMPLAINTS, COMPLAINTS, COMPLAINTS.

Enjoy what we have because we have more than a lot of bands out there! Van Halen is doing shit, Motley Crue - end, Metallica - one bad record after the other, Iron Mainden - zzzzzz, Ozzy Osbourne gives a 45 to 60 minutes performance, Skid Row - LAME...

Enjoy it for God's sake!

Material makes a lot of complaints disappear. All the bands you listed have much larger catalogs than GnR does. You might not like a Metallica box set...but then fans still have a TON of other Metallica material to enjoy  GnR fans have to go back and talk about albums that are 25-30 years old.

GnR released The Illusions in 1991. CD in 2008. And then a portion of the band reunites...and instead of a new album (which Axl said would happen a decade ago) GnR releases a $1,000 box set full of trinkets and old music, including eight different versions of one song. Nobody in the camp thought “instead of the 7th and 8th version of the same song, maybe the fans would enjoy hearing a brand new tune?”

Some People are complaining simply because GnR never seems to go all the way in giving fans what they really want and desire. 

You say fans complain no matter what? That simply is a huge exaggeration and not true at all. 

Imagine this scenario. 92.6% of the complaints would be gone. 

(((Short answer - CD2 in 2010, CD3 in 2013. Reunion features entire classic lineup and they release an album of new material. All complaints go away)))

Dream Answer:

2010 - CD2

2012 - CD3

2014 - Solo album from Axl featuring his favorite piano type songs. He loves billy Joel and Elton John and Stephanie seymore ballads. 

2016 - reunion. Featuring Slash, Duff, Izzy and Adler rejoining Axl. 

2016 - GnR releases double-set. An album of brand new material and a DVD of the Troubadour show. 

2017 - Appetite Box 

2017 - GnR allows fans to purchase all the old concert footage that fans clamor for . Pick the 20 most requested shows and make them available for a couple bucks apiece  

2018 - brand new GnR album

2019 - Axl autobiography

2020 - DVD live album, EP featuring four new songs and four covers or live songs 

2021 - Illusions Box

No fans would be complaining.   

TL/DR - new music and a real reunion and most complaints go away  

 

 

 

 

[Fashionista]

4 hours ago, Euchre said:

I've thought about this before as well.....pick the dozen songs that the band like the best, strip them back, have Adler re-record the drums and Izzy record rhythm where he was cut out, mix it afresh in a rawer way and have it sound like it should have if all the drama didn't happen (ie a genuine GNR effort).

Axl takes the remainders and modernise and package them however he likes. EP of all the ballads would work for some for example - and a series of EP's was one of the bands original intents.

Package it up with the original re-mastered or whatever so you aren't trying to erase history (as much as I personally don't care for Sorum/Reed, I think it would be silly to try and pretend they didn't exist or contribute - and the piano does work on some songs) and you've got the beginnings of an interesting anniversary box set - and will settle a lot of stuff once and for all.

 

This revisionist pushback against the UYIs is reallllllyyy annoying. No one complained about the UYIs until Slash started bashing them in his interviews and books. They were successes. They represented the height of GN'R's popularity. They do not need to be rerecorded. Leave them alone. 

"A genuine GN'R effort." It was. Again, revisionism. It's not a "fakeGN'R" record. 
Don't George Lucas GN'R's discography. 

[ToonGuns]

20 hours ago, Azifwekare said:

You can't hear it? The whole album is drowning in it. It's so dated that anyone not familiar with it would be able to pinpoint the exact year it was mixed. Even Axl complained about it, and cited it as one of his reasons for redoing it with the new band. 

Are we criticising an album from the 80's for sounding like an album from the 80's?

I know we all love Guns and love to pick apart every single little thing to find fault / something to debate, but expecting them to be able to foresee the future to know how to mix and master their 1987 album so it sounded like an album from the future is asking a bit a think!

[Fashionista]

3 hours ago, ToonGuns said:

Are we criticising an album from the 80's for sounding like an album from the 80's?

I know we all love Guns and love to pick apart every single little thing to find fault / something to debate, but expecting them to be able to foresee the future to know how to mix and master their 1987 album so it sounded like an album from the future is asking a bit a think!

There's plenty of albums from the 80s that have a more timeless mix.

[ToonGuns]

7 minutes ago, Fashionista said:

There's plenty of albums from the 80s that have a more timeless mix.

Completely true. But that is due to the benefit of hindsight which none of the mixing guys (both those that mixed timeless albums, and those that didn't) could have known. They were only doing what they felt was right for the status of the market, and their knowledge at the time.