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4 hours ago, Euchre said:

I've thought about this before as well.....pick the dozen songs that the band like the best, strip them back, have Adler re-record the drums and Izzy record rhythm where he was cut out, mix it afresh in a rawer way and have it sound like it should have if all the drama didn't happen (ie a genuine GNR effort).

Axl takes the remainders and modernise and package them however he likes. EP of all the ballads would work for some for example - and a series of EP's was one of the bands original intents.

Package it up with the original re-mastered or whatever so you aren't trying to erase history (as much as I personally don't care for Sorum/Reed, I think it would be silly to try and pretend they didn't exist or contribute - and the piano does work on some songs) and you've got the beginnings of an interesting anniversary box set - and will settle a lot of stuff once and for all.

 

This revisionist pushback against the UYIs is reallllllyyy annoying. No one complained about the UYIs until Slash started bashing them in his interviews and books. They were successes. They represented the height of GN'R's popularity. They do not need to be rerecorded. Leave them alone. 

"A genuine GN'R effort." It was. Again, revisionism. It's not a "fakeGN'R" record. 
Don't George Lucas GN'R's discography. 

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20 hours ago, Azifwekare said:

You can't hear it? The whole album is drowning in it. It's so dated that anyone not familiar with it would be able to pinpoint the exact year it was mixed. Even Axl complained about it, and cited it as one of his reasons for redoing it with the new band. 

Are we criticising an album from the 80's for sounding like an album from the 80's?

I know we all love Guns and love to pick apart every single little thing to find fault / something to debate, but expecting them to be able to foresee the future to know how to mix and master their 1987 album so it sounded like an album from the future is asking a bit a think!

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3 hours ago, ToonGuns said:

Are we criticising an album from the 80's for sounding like an album from the 80's?

I know we all love Guns and love to pick apart every single little thing to find fault / something to debate, but expecting them to be able to foresee the future to know how to mix and master their 1987 album so it sounded like an album from the future is asking a bit a think!

There's plenty of albums from the 80s that have a more timeless mix.

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7 minutes ago, Fashionista said:

There's plenty of albums from the 80s that have a more timeless mix.

Completely true. But that is due to the benefit of hindsight which none of the mixing guys (both those that mixed timeless albums, and those that didn't) could have known. They were only doing what they felt was right for the status of the market, and their knowledge at the time.

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3 hours ago, Fashionista said:

 

This revisionist pushback against the UYIs is reallllllyyy annoying. No one complained about the UYIs until Slash started bashing them in his interviews and books. They were successes. They represented the height of GN'R's popularity. They do not need to be rerecorded. Leave them alone. 

"A genuine GN'R effort." It was. Again, revisionism. It's not a "fakeGN'R" record. 
Don't George Lucas GN'R's discography. 

Nothing revisionist about it at all - those that lived through the Illusion era would recall how polarising they were at the time amongst fans and also that within a year of that tour GNR were pretty much considered a joke.

I can assure you I didn’t think much of them at the time and if anything like them a little better now, but still don’t think they are anything on Appetite or Lies. Didn’t regard them as real GNR at the time, still don’t now and doubt I ever will.

All the 80s GNR fans I knew had moved onto Metallica and then Pantera during that era. A lot gets talked about Nirvana killing this scene, but Pantera did way more damage IMO. GNR on the local metal show just sounded weak alongside Mouth For War. I remember photos of Slash’s Snakepit playing Donnington and it was just sad the way they looked compared to the other bands.

ill tell you who they did pick up as fans though due to the NR videos and the like - the pop fans - and there were a lot of them. My neighbour went from Kylie Minogue to UYI era GNR !!! Completely different fan base to prior.

I also remember the Adler v Matt debates on the Boerio fan site and that was well before Slash left the band. I had to chuckle when the Adler v Frank debates come up now. Time will do to the Frank fans what it did to the Sorum fans. It is Appetite that has and will stand the test of time, the UYI just don’t cut it.

Lastly it’s pretty clear the band knows this as well. This last tour has pretty much been an repeat of th Illusion tours however all the imagery is Appetite. Now I wonder why that is ?

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8 hours ago, Apollo said:

But would we get eight different versions of IRS on it? And would they spell band members names incorrectly?

Hopefully we'll get 10 mixes of Silkworms and 5 versions of Bryan May's Catcher solo.

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4 hours ago, Euchre said:

Nothing revisionist about it at all - those that lived through the Illusion era would recall how polarising they were at the time amongst fans and also that within a year of that tour GNR were pretty much considered a joke.

I can assure you I didn’t think much of them at the time and if anything like them a little better now, but still don’t think they are anything on Appetite or Lies. Didn’t regard them as real GNR at the time, still don’t now and doubt I ever will.

All the 80s GNR fans I knew had moved onto Metallica and then Pantera during that era. A lot gets talked about Nirvana killing this scene, but Pantera did way more damage IMO. GNR on the local metal show just sounded weak alongside Mouth For War. I remember photos of Slash’s Snakepit playing Donnington and it was just sad the way they looked compared to the other bands.

ill tell you who they did pick up as fans though due to the NR videos and the like - the pop fans - and there were a lot of them. My neighbour went from Kylie Minogue to UYI era GNR !!! Completely different fan base to prior.

I also remember the Adler v Matt debates on the Boerio fan site and that was well before Slash left the band. I had to chuckle when the Adler v Frank debates come up now. Time will do to the Frank fans what it did to the Sorum fans. It is Appetite that has and will stand the test of time, the UYI just don’t cut it.

Lastly it’s pretty clear the band knows this as well. This last tour has pretty much been an repeat of th Illusion tours however all the imagery is Appetite. Now I wonder why that is ?

If i remember when pantera started getting big other bands like motley crue started changing their style.

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7 hours ago, ToonGuns said:

Are we criticising an album from the 80's for sounding like an album from the 80's?

I know we all love Guns and love to pick apart every single little thing to find fault / something to debate, but expecting them to be able to foresee the future to know how to mix and master their 1987 album so it sounded like an album from the future is asking a bit a think!

Don't get me wrong, the album kicks ass, but the drums just sound like crap. There are plenty of rock albums from the same time that are of a much higher standard mix-wise. Even if it didn't sound dated at the time, it most definitely would after just a few short years (and no, that's not a "omg grunge is awsum" statement).

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Posted (edited)

I have similar recollection about the Illusions and their reception by the hard core metal fans. It depended on what kind of music fan you were.

In the 80s, metal was the dominant, in terms of popularity, rock genre. But also every contemporary loud guitar-based and long-haired band, with the exception of the Ramones, was labeled as metal regardless of how those bands defined themselves (I remember the term "rock" being used only for the older, classic rock bands like the Stones and contemporary acts like Springsteen - then there was new wave up to a point, and indie/alternative which was the umbrella term for different things, from the remnants of punk to 60s influenced bands, goth, avant-gard, etc.). And the main criterion for metal fans to like a band was whether it was "real" metal or not, so bands like Bon Jovi and Poison were discarded as "pop metal". One ballad in an album was acceptable (the "metal ballads" were also a bridge between the metal heads and the pop/rock audience) but more ballads or "softer" songs meant that the band wasn't metal or it had sold out. Even the Black album had alienated the most hard core Metallica fans because it had two ballads and it was "commercial".

At the same time, metal was despised by the prestigious music press and its writers, as well as by alternative fans. But AFD GnR, although not totally accepted by the critics (being seen by some of them as derivative and or "crude"), was kind of a bridge between the two 'worlds", because of its old-school quality and "believability". A portion of the GnR fans were metal heads (both of the Sunset Strip kind and of the more hardcore kind that despised the glam metal bands), but they also attracted other fans: classic rock fans, punks (in the US mostly), kids who were just getting their music fan identity, etc. 

When the Illusion albums came out, a portion of the people who had liked GnR as a "metal band" was alienated. Not only ballads, but piano too - that was unacceptable for the metal purists; add the machismo of the genre and the "confusion" caused by Axl's UYI era look. In most of the reviews of the time, however, although the albums were seen as uneven, they were praised for the amount of good songs in them (different ones depending on each one's taste), as well as for the band's boldness and progression. The UYI era GnR was massive, although part (not the majority, I believe) of their fanbase had changed - and indeed they had crossed-over to a more pop audience with November Rain and the videos (I had a problem with that at the time, although I wasn't a metal fan or a purist and I still liked them, but piano ballads wasn't what I was looking for then - however, irrespective of taste, I think NR is a great song). They had become that larger-than-life rock band, simultaneously contemporary and from another time, while maintaining much or some of their edge, and that was their appeal. And they were still massive when the "alternative" wave hit the mainstream.

The UYI revisionism has to do with the retrospective narrative that with those albums GnR became automatically irrelevant because they deviated from their roots and, as a result, they were swept out by the emerging "alternative" bands.

Edited by Blackstar
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10 hours ago, Apollo said:

Some People are complaining simply because GnR never seems to go all the way in giving fans what they really want and desire. 

I get your point, but the band does not own anything to us. We bought a copy of their work, that's it, done, we chose to follow them.

Should have, could have.

I think your suggestion is great. But this is not a rental business, you buy their work, you buy tickets to their concerts, you follow them, if you want to. That does not turn you or anyone else the owner of the band or it does not give us the right to tell them what to do.

This band is like this since the get go. Or do you really think LIES is a brand new one record (there was only 3 new songs in there - Patience, One in a Million and Used to Love Her).

There's tons of unreleased material on Youtube: Crash Diet, Bring Back Home, Sentimental Movie, Too Much Too Soon, Going Down, Blood in The Water, Cornshucker, Sailing, Under My Wheels, Magic Carpet Ride, American Band, Silkworms, Oh My God, just to name a few.

There's also tons of footage on Youtube, there's even the lost I Don't Care About you video.

Once again COMPLAINTS, COMPLAINTS, COMPLAINTS.

THE BAND DOESN'T OWN US ANYTHING, WE CHOSE TO FOLLOW THEM.

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22 hours ago, Euchre said:

Nothing revisionist about it at all - those that lived through the Illusion era would recall how polarising they were at the time amongst fans and also that within a year of that tour GNR were pretty much considered a joke.

I can assure you I didn’t think much of them at the time and if anything like them a little better now, but still don’t think they are anything on Appetite or Lies. Didn’t regard them as real GNR at the time, still don’t now and doubt I ever will.

All the 80s GNR fans I knew had moved onto Metallica and then Pantera during that era. A lot gets talked about Nirvana killing this scene, but Pantera did way more damage IMO. GNR on the local metal show just sounded weak alongside Mouth For War. I remember photos of Slash’s Snakepit playing Donnington and it was just sad the way they looked compared to the other bands.

ill tell you who they did pick up as fans though due to the NR videos and the like - the pop fans - and there were a lot of them. My neighbour went from Kylie Minogue to UYI era GNR !!! Completely different fan base to prior.

I also remember the Adler v Matt debates on the Boerio fan site and that was well before Slash left the band. I had to chuckle when the Adler v Frank debates come up now. Time will do to the Frank fans what it did to the Sorum fans. It is Appetite that has and will stand the test of time, the UYI just don’t cut it.

Lastly it’s pretty clear the band knows this as well. This last tour has pretty much been an repeat of th Illusion tours however all the imagery is Appetite. Now I wonder why that is ?

Oh but it is revisionist to the extent that they're basically borderline considered "fakegnr albums" by some, and considered a horrible misstep by others. They were polarizing because they were more than just, well, rockers. GN'R was considered a joke more for Axl's antics, the late starts, the rants, and his odd clothes than anything else. I was a kid in the 90s, but my sister was a MASSIVE Metal/Guns fan in this era - she saw GN'R as early as their L'Amour show; She even ran a local rock music magazine. According to her, the UYIs were received well (but the ballads - mainly Estranged and NR - were puzzling and a bummer). My sister is a woman who only until recently came to terms with the Black Album as a Metallica record. She only recently saw Metallica live again for the first time since 1996 or 1997 because she felt utterly betrayed by Load and ReLoad. She was 19 when the UYIs were released. According to her and her friends' I've spoken to (all of the same scene), waiting 3 hours for GN'R to show up on stage is what turned them off - not the music. Axl ranting against Metallica and causing riots turned them off. Her and her friends considered TSI - at least, Since I Don't Have You - to be cringey, horribly cringey - and dropped out. She still bought the Snakepit record when it dropped in '95, though. I would say she is a fair representative of your average Metal chick here in NYC in the late 80s/early 90s. Her favorite band in the world is Metallica and she had tapes of stuff like Ugly Kid Joe, Damn Yankees, Skid Row, and everything you could think of as being popular with the metal scene from that era. She GN'R at L'Amour, on tour in '88, at MSG in '91, and at Giant Stadium in '92 before dropping off and moving on.

Why is that as far as this tour? Because AFD is one singular iconic album which the band has fond memories of making. The UYIs are two uneven records which the band have very turbulent memories of making and recording. The AFD era was generally a better received era by the public and has a better public memory because Axl's BS and the riots and such didn't really happen in the 80s, and because there is a massive wave of nostalgia for the 80s in general. The UYI tour has a lot of negative public memory attached to it, and when you think of the 90s, you think of grunge, you don't think of hard rock/metal like GN'R, so going with AFD imagery is a pretty obvious choice if you're doing a nostalgia tour.

People act like the UYIs are packed full of just piano based ballds, but those songs constitute a minority of the songs on there. You have some of the heaviest sludgiest rock songs of their discography like Garden of Eden, Coma, Perfect Crime and such in there. 

 

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On 8/30/2018 at 9:27 AM, Legendador said:

I get your point, but the band does not own anything to us. We bought a copy of their work, that's it, done, we chose to follow them.

Should have, could have.

I think your suggestion is great. But this is not a rental business, you buy their work, you buy tickets to their concerts, you follow them, if you want to. That does not turn you or anyone else the owner of the band or it does not give us the right to tell them what to do.

This band is like this since the get go. Or do you really think LIES is a brand new one record (there was only 3 new songs in there - Patience, One in a Million and Used to Love Her).

There's tons of unreleased material on Youtube: Crash Diet, Bring Back Home, Sentimental Movie, Too Much Too Soon, Going Down, Blood in The Water, Cornshucker, Sailing, Under My Wheels, Magic Carpet Ride, American Band, Silkworms, Oh My God, just to name a few.

There's also tons of footage on Youtube, there's even the lost I Don't Care About you video.

Once again COMPLAINTS, COMPLAINTS, COMPLAINTS.

THE BAND DOESN'T OWN US ANYTHING, WE CHOSE TO FOLLOW THEM.

Owe - not own. 

Conversely, we also don’t owe them anything either. There is no rule that says people must kiss the ass of a band and praise their every move. We live in a free society where people are allowed to share their opinions - whether they are positive or criticism. Axl is famous for bashing and criticizing people. Do you get mad about that? 

Put your demand into perspective. You are telling people they shouldn’t complain about something....while YOU are complaining about gnr fans. So only you are allowed to voice your complaints? Why the double standard?

Also. Look up quotes from all your favorite artists. You will find almost every single one of them with a quote saying “we owe our success to the fans.” Most people realize that it is a relationship. Without fans, Axl would be fronting an 80s cover band at the Whisky opening for Ratt. With fans.....dude is worshiped and is worth more than 200 million dollars. 

TL/DR - 90% of the comments about GnR positive. It’s perfectly fine for fans to share their positive and negative comments. 

And unless you are a member of GnR, then you shouldn’t care if some anonymous screen name from a guy in Seattle wishes Izzy would have been part of the reunion. Do you work for GnR?

 

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@Euchre

@Fashionista

Great debate. You both are making excellent points. 

The rock crowd in my area loved the Illusions. But the fans into the harder rock definitely started moving away from the band. 

Pretentious is a word that was used a lot. Axl’s late starts, rants, diva behavior, etc really started turning some fans off of the band. 

I remember watching Estranged with a group of friends and when Axl is swimming with the Dolphins one of them turned to me and said “dude, really? What happened to Axl Fucking Rose?” 

Money and fame really changed the attitude of GnR as a band. 

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9 hours ago, Apollo said:

@Euchre

@Fashionista

Great debate. You both are making excellent points. 

The rock crowd in my area loved the Illusions. But the fans into the harder rock definitely started moving away from the band. 

Pretentious is a word that was used a lot. Axl’s late starts, rants, diva behavior, etc really started turning some fans off of the band. 

I remember watching Estranged with a group of friends and when Axl is swimming with the Dolphins one of them turned to me and said “dude, really? What happened to Axl Fucking Rose?” 

Money and fame really changed the attitude of GnR as a band. 

The UYIs came out probably two years too late. I mean, in the college and underground scene before Nirvana broke mainstream, it was all about stripping things down. R.E.M. for example was a harbinger of what was to come, really (a producer once said Nirvana was simply R.E.M. with distorted guitars to him). Simple, melodic, poppy rock that held no real pretenses. The frontmen who led the vanguard of Grunge and Alternative music were interesting, but harmless - politically correct, nice guys who held no questionable views or acted in any diva way. Rockstars who dressed like regular people, who even eschewed long hair. The music scene changed really quickly. If the UYIs as is - let's say Steven is kicked out earlier - came out in 1989 or even in 1990 - it would've sold twice as much as it did and been considered a classic along the lines of Exile on Main Street. 

Image is a powerful thing in music, and it was especially in rock music. Let's compare GN'R and how they dressed and the presence they gave off vs. their contemporaries.

gnr+dead.jpg

metallica-1991.jpg

GettyImages-181809003-920x584.jpg

p01bqhl6.jpg

GN'R look like cartoon caricatures by comparison, rich guys in really expensive costumes playing roles.


Not only did it come out at the wrong time, but AXL ROSE, his actions, his bizarre statements, his diva attitude as you say, really overshadowed the music. Reviews from the era would talk more about GN'R's punctuality than about the songs played. When you're waiting 3 or 4 hours for a show to start, you're not gonna care to remember the songs you heard there, you're just gonna be happy they showed up and that you got home safe - and you're gonna be turned off by them. Axl said he wanted to bury Appetite, but his actions actually buried the UYIs. By the time they came out, St. Louis had greatly tarnished the band's reputation, late starts were the norm and people were tired of it, and while the band gave 30 songs, essentially 4 LPs, people didn't wait for 4 years between records for Axl to make them wait four hours to play.

The UYIs also were in some ways too much at once. 75 minutes of music per CD in 1991 is a lot to digest, and each song is radically different from the next (whereas on AFD and Lies, every song is in exactly the same style). You'll go from one skate park thrash song, to Izzy (who the fuck is this guy singing?) on vocals doing a Stonesy classic rock number, to a James Bond cover, to a folksky acoustic campfire song, to a short, fast punk metal song. It's like musical whiplash. There's no consistency. There's a lot of great songs, but it feels like a compilation set of great songs with no glue holding them together rather than a cohesive album, which, after a four year wait, probably was a turn off. Outside of the ballads, there was no singular direction to grasp onto; GN'R has no musical identity on those records. Compare this to the Black Album, where, as offputting to hard core fans as it was, the album is cohesive as fuck, or to Nevermind, or Ten. UYIs songs are mostly really amazing songs, but they sound like they come off of 4 different albums instead of two. Just when you're like, okay, "wow, that was great, I hope the next song is like that one", you get a number in a completely different genre. It's schizophrenic.

It wasn't the absence of Adler, or the mixing, or Dizzy Reed. It was all I said above.

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43 minutes ago, Fashionista said:

Image is a powerful thing in music, and it was especially in rock music. Let's compare GN'R and how they dressed and the presence they gave off vs. their contemporaries.

Axl's look in the UYI era may have turned off fans of certain categories, however some of his outfits were seen as trend-leading. I have read articles of the time about the kilt, and he was even seen as the one who introduced the flannel fashion.

5b89ef165356e_flannelfashion-St__Louis_Post_Dispatch_Thu__Aug_27__1992_cropped.jpg.e8f2f5a4147887fa9f6d061a643ed34c.jpg

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Doesn’t it always seem that the Appetite version of any AFD song is better than any demo or other recording of those songs? Maybe it’s just me.. But I wouldn’t change AFD one bit, warts n all.

 

Illusions on the other hand, I’d love to hear what those songs sound like from a tight GNR. I love Illusions, but most of its songs are a collection of individual parts who come off as a million miles apart. 

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AFD is really the crown jewel of GNR. A UYI box set will probably pale in comparison. The material just isn't as strong and concise.

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18 hours ago, Apollo said:

Owe - not own. 

Conversely, we also don’t owe them anything either. There is no rule that says people must kiss the *** of a band and praise their every move. We live in a free society where people are allowed to share their opinions - whether they are positive or criticism. Axl is famous for bashing and criticizing people. Do you get mad about that? 

Put your demand into perspective. You are telling people they shouldn’t complain about something....while YOU are complaining about gnr fans. So only you are allowed to voice your complaints? Why the double standard?

Also. Look up quotes from all your favorite artists. You will find almost every single one of them with a quote saying “we owe our success to the fans.” Most people realize that it is a relationship. Without fans, Axl would be fronting an 80s cover band at the Whisky opening for Ratt. With fans.....dude is worshiped and is worth more than 200 million dollars. 

TL/DR - 90% of the comments about GnR positive. It’s perfectly fine for fans to share their positive and negative comments. 

And unless you are a member of GnR, then you shouldn’t care if some anonymous screen name from a guy in Seattle wishes Izzy would have been part of the reunion. Do you work for GnR?

 

Thanks for correcting me, dude! If that's what it takes to validate yourself, so be it! Althought English is not my second or third, or forth language.

Why are you so bothered with my comments/opinions? I am, indeed, complaining about all the imature, spoiled GNR fans, like YOU!

The band is great, they sound better than ever, I'm happy with what I got. Wish I had more? HELL YES! But that's life.

Unfortunately I don't work for the band (or do I?), but since I'm a ~Brazilian~, let's get out of the forum and head out to the beach!

 

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18 hours ago, Apollo said:

TL/DR - 90% of the comments about GnR positive. It’s perfectly fine for fans to share their positive and negative comments. 

And just to let you know, 90% of the comments on this board/forum is negative, vicious shit from people that started to like the band from 2002 and on.

Those are REAL fans that seem to know A LOT!

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There are a few different threads at the moment covering the same theme, so I’m bringing a few things together in this post.

What often get forgotten today, is that there is way more info on Guns and even the early days of Guns now than there was in 1990. Back then there was no internet, there was I think 2 books out and other than that all you had was an interview you might have got in that months magazine. Hence things may only come out much later if at all and it was only the big stuff that really came out.

Hence, the main thing the average music buyer saw was the albums, the videos and the t-shirts. So if you want to get a feel for how the band was perceived back then go and look at those and you’ll notice all 5 members pretty much had equal billing. Albums were equal. Videos, Axl had a bit more prominence in Jungle, but all 5 members featured in the off stage scenes, same with Patience and Sweet Child and in Paradise City, Izzy and Axl were missing from the NY shots, so if anything Slash, Adler and Duff had more priminance in that video. T shirts were the same - every shirt was either a logo or if it was a photo it was all 5. Right near the end just before Steven was fired they bought out these Lies shirts that had individual members on the front with a song lyric - but that was 5 different shirt designs one for each member - again all equal. There were virtually no shows in 89/90 and GNR was blowing up ever bigger, particularly in 89 and all the public saw at that time was all 5 members with similar prominence and that is how the band got defined in a lot of people’s minds. Actually the other thing that you could see from time to time was the Ritz show - and again guys like Adler were just as prominent in that as Axl was. Guns was one the last bands where the buying public knew every members name. It was only after UYI came out that it really became the Axl & Slash show but more on the later.

Add to the above they came across as a really tight knit group. Knowing what we know now from the Net we know that wasn’t really the case, but at the time the perception was they were almost a gang who really had each other’s back - it is really hard to find any interviews from that ere where they talk any shit about each other. They were also perceived very much so as a drug orientated band.

So when it started coming out that Steven was fired and fired for drugs it was very much a WTF moment and alienated a lot of fans. (Again remember sometimes it would take months for interviews to be published - so there was a large cross over period where Adler was out but interviews, pics etc coming out were still from when he was in and people didn’t really know what has going on until the YCBM vid came out - not every interview was in every mag, and you couldn’t get every mag anyway so you’re only getting snippets). Those band member shirts were still out right up to the UYI designs came in, so well after Steven was fired you could still get the Guns Steven Adler shirt with Anything Goes/Lies on it.

Subsequenlty you start getting pics coming out with Axl bearded up and in bike shorts and it is increasingly like WTF and then more and more of the stupid antics,changing clothes, disappearing off stage, shows go on for ever and lose their intensity. Izzy disappears adds to it all, there’s a keyboardist in there, then another. The albums are completely different to Appetite, there are the back up singers, the ridiculous videos. They go from basically being lights and bands show - famously in Oz not even a drum riser then they play the Entertianment Centre - to the very thing the claimed to hate a few years before on the Maiden tour this big stage show with inflatables and pyro and these huge banners on the side of the stage. People were legitimately going this is a completely different band in terms of outlook and sound to the one I loved so much a couple of years back.

The other thing that gets forgotten now days is that the UYI singles didn’t go that great at first, it was Nov Rain that really took off and if you look at that single it has Sweet Child and Patience on the b-side. In fact pretty much every UYI single has the original band on it which is pretty ironic as no one in the band was saying anything nice about Adler or even Izzy at this point. It was only late 90s/early 2000’s that started to change.

The other thing is during this period between when Apetite/Lies era ends and UYI come out there are 4 major personnel changes - and in hindsight they are critical. And even though spaced out in most of the public’s eye they pretty much come at the same time.

Adler/Izzy/Niven out, Reed in. The first 3 are critical to the balance within the band as these were the 3 most likely to call Axl out. With them gone, Axl goes more down the Axl path. Similarly with Izzy gone Slash exerts more control, although to be fair this was already happening prior as Izzy was heavil sidelined in the UYI albums. Also, suddenly songs aren’t written by Guns N Roses anymore, they are written by individuals the gang mentality is fracturing, 

So much gets talked about Adler and Civil War but most forget that Izzy doesn’t even appear on the track. Both Adler and Izzy had very unique styles that brought a lot to the Guns sound. Steven aside from the unique parts would vary his timing with the emotion of the song which caused it to soar when it needed to and bring it back down when it needed to. Izzy brought a very down to earth element to the band. Slash has said he hates Izzy’s parts in Jungle, but they add so much to the song but if it was on UYI you would hear Izzy’s guitar and the song would be inferior IMO, which is part of what affected the other songs on UYI. Beat in mind as well that Guns started out Axl/Izzy on one side, Slash/Steven on the other and Duff in the middle, so Adler going initially certainly tipped a voting balance in the band.

Niven was also key, up until he was fired the guy was heavily praised for what he achieved with Guns. He was really in it for all 5 and wasn’t afraid to call Axl out. I think Axl did the no show on the first gig Niven was manager and he made the rest of the band go on without Axl. I don’t think he did it again. This was  much better way to deal with late starts than accomodating it the way it was during UYI, I’m not sure how often Axl would show up late if by the time  he walked on stage the band was already half way through the set. Anyway without Niven handling this, it was the sort of stuff that happened.

Dizzy I don’t think had much influence on the actual band other than they felt the need to cram keyboards into every song now he was a member,  it certainly at the time keyboards weren’t viewed as that cool in the metal world, so it was a bit of a WTF and certainly added to this is a whole different band now vibe.

i think the saving grace for the UYI was that they were developed so much by the original band, it was really only right at the end that the personnel changes happened. The notorious Chicago trip where the went to focus on that material was mid 89 for instance, and as we know now many of the tunes pre dated Appetite. One of the best indicators for me is Back of Bitch as it allows you to compare UYI to Appetite via the Sound City demos. The Appetite turns on Sound City are inferior to the album, but Back off Bitch IMO is superior. How an 86 demo sounds better than this hugely expensive album speaks volumes, but also indicates how much better UYI could be.

The other thing that bothers me with those albums, is that they get talked about today like they are these atypical albums, but at the time Appetite and Lies were much more atypical. Every band from Metallica to Poison to pick any were doing power ballads. Motley had the big hit with Home Sweet Home which combined the piano. Appetite had none of that and it made it stand out. With Lies it seemed you had to go back to the early 70’s to get that style. Remember this was years before MTV Unplugg took off with Clapton. UYI however just seemed to go with the formula that everyone else was using - more blah IMO.

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The UYI albums were still massive successes despite the metalhead contingent being unhappy. And you're trying to claim NR was only successful because of SCOM. What a joke. I guess people requested the video for the song on MTV in 1992 ironically, too, right? Massive failure all around, right?

The revisionist hatred for anything past 1990 has now pushed the UYIs into Star Wars prequel territory as being massive failures and bad albums who destroyed GN'R. It's amazing. All because they're bitter Adler wasn't there.

Edited by Fashionista

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7 hours ago, Fashionista said:

The UYI albums were still massive successes despite the metalhead contingent being unhappy. And you're trying to claim NR was only successful because of SCOM. What a joke. I guess people requested the video for the song on MTV in 1992 ironically, too, right? Massive failure all around, right?

The revisionist hatred for anything past 1990 has now pushed the UYIs into Star Wars prequel territory as being massive failures and bad albums who destroyed GN'R. It's amazing. All because they're bitter Adler wasn't there.

Out of everything I said in the prior post, the thing you choose to comment on is the NR single - and even then try and put words into my mouth. If you can find anywhere that I claim the Illusion about, tour or NR were not big then quote me direct, and I’ll stand corrected. My point the whole time is that they picked up a different fan base, alienated a lot of fans of the original line up and still used the original band to push things along (although far less so than they do today). If you were a pretty casual fan that liked NR but didn’t own Appetite and Lies (remember no internet to stream or download, no greatest hits at the time), so if you wanted the big 3 GNR softer songs you either bought 3 albums that would have been $60 - $90 at the time (in Oz) or you bought that single that was $5 to $7 from memory. A lot bought the single because of this. So I’m not claiming that NR was a success because of this, but I’m certainly claiming it helped sales along.

You seem hell bent on this revisionist line even though you have basically said you weren’t there to experience it first hand, and everyone else that has commented that was, and also your sister more or less are confirming what I’m saying to some degree. Your position is akin to looking back in 20 years and saying NITL was a success so anyone who claims a lot of fans didn’t like it at the time is a revisionist. There are plenty of people expressing their displeasure or dislike and the where’s Adler/Izzy comments are rife, but it doesn’t mean the shows aren’t selling a lot.

The thing with UYI and I expect the same will happen with NITL is that at the time everyone was caught up in the hype and euphoria as it was massive. People went along because it was a huge event. However once all that emotion died down and people looked back, it pretty quickly turned into well actually it wasn’t really that great - if that is what you mean by revisionist then you are correct in that regard, but that didn’t mean a lot of people weren’t also saying it at the time.The band is the same - at the time you can’t find any interviews where they are critical of the Illusions or the tour, but it didn’t take long for them to start saying they hated it and it was one of the worst periods of their life. At the Oz shows the comment immediately after the shows was pretty much universally GNR were ok, but Skid Row blew them away - very quickly after that tour GNR completely faded from prominence.

The Adler/Izzy stuff has been going since 91. It’s not going to go away. As I mentioned before I remember the Adler v Sorum debates back in the mid 90s on the Boerio forums. Now it’s Adler v Frank. I doubt anyone genuinely believed at the time Matt was a preferable drummer for GNR they were just arguing for who was in the band at the time. And it’s the same now for Frank. And it will be the same in 5 & 10 years from now - just as you don’t see Sorum v Frank debates, you won’t see Frank v whoever is drumming then, it will be Adler v whoever. The 5 was the way the band was defined and the group that made the best albums and delivered the best performances. The things that have happened subsequently were predominantly around control, money and ego - and whilst there has been periods of success the reality is the band hasn’t delivered anywhere near the potential it could have and ironically, hasn’t had as much regular or on going success as it could have. Anyone who thinks the current tour is about some sort of artistic statement or integrity is crazy. It is 100% about $$. It is no surprise that the 3 original members involved, no more, no less are the 3 that have voting stake in the sales and marketing of the name or back catalogue. Everything is designed to maximise the $$ for those 3, and I doubt the band are really int9 it. Post tour I expect we’ll start seeing similar statements emerge to post UYI. Funny how they still look back on Appetite era with fondness though. I’ve seen plenty of wealthy people fall into this trap where, even though they have the financial means to do whatever they what, they choose decisions to unnecessarily try and maximise their bank accounts rather than their happiness.

Edited by Euchre

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9 hours ago, Euchre said:

Out of everything I said in the prior post, the thing you choose to comment on is the NR single - and even then try and put words into my mouth. If you can find anywhere that I claim the Illusion about, tour or NR were not big then quote me direct, and I’ll stand corrected. My point the whole time is that they picked up a different fan base, alienated a lot of fans of the original line up and still used the original band to push things along (although far less so than they do today). If you were a pretty casual fan that liked NR but didn’t own Appetite and Lies (remember no internet to stream or download, no greatest hits at the time), so if you wanted the big 3 GNR softer songs you either bought 3 albums that would have been $60 - $90 at the time (in Oz) or you bought that single that was $5 to $7 from memory. A lot bought the single because of this. So I’m not claiming that NR was a success because of this, but I’m certainly claiming it helped sales along.

You seem hell bent on this revisionist line even though you have basically said you weren’t there to experience it first hand, and everyone else that has commented that was, and also your sister more or less are confirming what I’m saying to some degree.

The Adler/Izzy stuff has been going since 91. It’s not going to go away. As I mentioned before I remember the Adler v Sorum debates back in the mid 90s on the Boerio forums.

 The 5 was the way the band was defined and the group that made the best albums and delivered the best performances. The things that have happened subsequently were predominantly around control, money and ego - and whilst there has been periods of success the reality is the band hasn’t delivered anywhere near the potential it could have and ironically, hasn’t had as much regular or on going success as it could have. 

1) I'm speaking of America. You both overestimate the audience they alienated and the new audience they picked up. I am sure some metal head were unhappy  with the ballads but the ballads constitute a minority of songs on the records. Some of GnR's most metal in sound material is on UYI I. There aren't really any GNR songs as metal as Garden of Eden. Likewise, I doubt many pop fans crossed over to a homophobic sexist rock band with baggage because of NR.

If the single alone only had success the impact of SCOM as a b side might be more relevant but the success of the video shows that people were into the song itself.

I mentioned that my sister and her friends liked the Illusions but were mainly turned off by Axl's antics the late starts and GnR becoming increasingly out of touch with reality. Those stand independent of Dizzy Reed, ballads or anything else. 

The Adler Sorum debate might have been among hardcore fans in the mid 90s, after the tour was over and the dust settled but if you go back to Usenet in 91/92 the only things you'll see about Adler is what a joke it was that a band of drug addicts fired him for doing drugs. Do you really think your average rock fan cared that much about who the drummer was in 91? Izzy leaving was a different story.

its your opinion that the 5 made the best albums and delivered the best performances. As far as what could've been the songs were written with Izzy and Adler in the band and would not have been all that much different with either in tow. Adler did not have a say in musical direction and Izzy was not interested. The Mates Rehearsal in 89 shows as much. Don't damn Me, Locomotive etc are essentially the same as on the record. 

Edited by Fashionista

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1 hour ago, Fashionista said:

1) I'm speaking of America. You both overestimate the audience they alienated and the new audience they picked up. I am sure some metal head were unhappy  with the ballads but the ballads constitute a minority of songs on the records. Some of GnR's most metal in sound material is on UYI I. There aren't really any GNR songs as metal as Garden of Eden. Likewise, I doubt many pop fans crossed over to a homophobic sexist rock band with baggage because of NR.

If the single alone only had success the impact of SCOM as a b side might be more relevant but the success of the video shows that people were into the song itself.

I mentioned that my sister and her friends liked the Illusions but were mainly turned off by Axl's antics the late starts and GnR becoming increasingly out of touch with reality. Those stand independent of Dizzy Reed, ballads or anything else. 

The Adler Sorum debate might have been among hardcore fans in the mid 90s, after the tour was over and the dust settled but if you go back to Usenet in 91/92 the only things you'll see about Adler is what a joke it was that a band of drug addicts fired him for doing drugs. Do you really think your average rock fan cared that much about who the drummer was in 91? Izzy leaving was a different story.

its your opinion that the 5 made the best albums and delivered the best performances. As far as what could've been the songs were written with Izzy and Adler in the band and would not have been all that much different with either in tow. Adler did not have a say in musical direction and Izzy was not interested. The Mates Rehearsal in 89 shows as much. Don't damn Me, Locomotive etc are essentially the same as on the record. 

There are a couple of good points in here and I do like your Sorum v Frank thread !!!

I’m not denying that during the UYI tour there wasn’t much being said by the fans about Adler/Izzy. The point I keep trying to make/explain is that all the fans I knew of that original band had turned off GNR by that point. They were the ones that cared about Adler/Izzy and they no longer cared for GNR. The new batch of fans they picked up probably barely knew who Adler/Izzy were - by this stage it was the Axl and Slash show, but it never used to be. This is what I keep trying to say, it was a different crowd and a lot more fickle one - when GNR were out of fashion they moved on again - they were in it for the hype and the event, not for the music. I saw this again this time around, people I went to school with who were never fans of GNR for either the Appetite/Lies or the Illusion era were contacting me to go so NITL. I literally don’t know anyone who was a fan back in the day that went to these shows.

I also agree that UYI wouldn’t have been materially different song wise had the band stayed together. I think this was the saving grace for those albums actually that the original band had developed them so far. Where they would have been different IMO was in production, artwork, song credits and song selection. I wouldn’t be surprised if the original idea of a series of EP’s materialised alongside a shorter album. It is hardly surprising that the ‘band’ has barely released anything outside of those songs that the original 5 worked on.

You can look back at sales and tour figures and everything that gets written on the net now and try and form a picture but I can’t emphasis how much at the time this band was viewed as a tight knit group that just did whatever they wanted and didn’t compromise at all. They stood out massively in that regard. As I mentioned all the songs were written by ‘Guns N’ Roses’ in the interviews they’d say stuff like it could only ever have been us 5 in the band, equal billing in the videos, t-shirts and album sleeves, all band members would be interviewed from time to time in the mags, no power ballads on the album. They were different to other bands in this regard and all members had a solid fan base. When it emerged that Adler and Izzy were out and then all the subsequent things that went on with the album/tour that were so diametrically opposite to what they represented during the Appetite/Lies era, just turned so many of the original fans away - and those people did know and care about all 5. Even the band itself acknowledges that the original 5 are the real band, unfortunately money and ego gets in the way now.

Don’t get me wrong, Adler certainly screwed it and people talk about him now as a hopeless addict, but at the time Slash was perceived as a much bigger junkie than Adler. Also, OIAM is a much bigger controversy today than it was back then, small waves at the time but more a storm in a tea cup, outside of the people I knew that liked the band, no one had even heard of the song - the drug use was a much bigger controversy at the time - for crying out loud they put out a shirt with all the band members on the front with the line ‘Stoned in LA’’. I also definitely agree that Axl turned a lot of people away - most thought he was a bit of a dick by the end of that tour - I’m not sure if I mentioned it before but those bike pants definitely alienated a lot of people !!! I remember years later hearing one of those 87 Pasadena shows as they came at as unofficial CD releases in Oz in the late 90s and Axl goes on this rant about musicians who think they are rock stars and how down to earth he is - which is exactly how he and the whole band came across in the 80s, but I was just thinking at the time how things have changed and what the hell happened to this guy ??

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@Euchre made a really noteworthy point earlier about the difference between how informed the fans were back then, in the pre-internet era, and later, and how that affected their perception of the band, which puts some things into perspective; and that's mainly why I liked his post and not because I necessarily agree with all his opinions (I surely don't agree that the Illusions were typical in comparison to Appetite and went with the metal formula just because they had ballads, piano and synths - I think they were anything but. And the idea that GnR could in any way have been blown away by a band like Skid Row is inconceivable in my mind).

My posts in discussions like this are a combination of what I remember and of the broader view I've obtained since then. That's because I can't generalise my personal recollection from a peripheral European country.

But it's true that we didn't have much information. Although here we had free MTV for a period, which was the main source of information for us about GnR, there are many MTV interviews on youtube from back then that I don't remember seeing at the time, either because I'd missed them (naturally I didn't watch MTV all day) or most likely because they were exclusive to MTV U.S.A. and not broadcasted here in in Europe. So we didn't know and we (I, at least) couldn't possibly imagine, for example, that Axl played the piano or that the band could do a song like November Rain until the Illusions came out (even though we'd heard Civil War and about Dizzy being added in 1990). There were people who liked what the band did with the Illusions and people who didn't, but nonetheless we didn't know beforehand. I reckon that the U.S. fans were much more informed because there were many magazines over there and the daily press also reported about them; but still, there were, for example, interviews the band did in Japan in 1988 where they talked shit and are on youtube now, but I doubt anyone outside Japan had watched them then.

There were other things that were known though. I have the opposite recollection about OIAM and drugs. The drugs weren't a big issue for the rock crowd or the press here, because it was kind of seen as something that bands do. OIAM, on the other hand, had caused a reaction. I remember vividly, among other things, a radio show I was listening to that presented new releases. When Lies was released they played Patience (the comments weren't positive - they didn't like the band anyway) and then they talked about OIAM with one of the hosts saying that Axl was a brainless, low-minded .... [Greek derogatory word for people from rural areas] etc. and then there were phone calls from listeners saying similar things. And, from what I've read, there was a lot of controversy in the U.S about that song.

Anyway, my perception is that GnR didn't lose the majority of its fans with the Illusions, although there was a portion that was indeed alienated.

Edited by Blackstar

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