Does the NITL Tour validate Chinese Democracy?

[Sydney Fan]

3 hours ago, Bono said:

The album sucks and this reunion if anything invalidates that entire era of the band. And thank god. Nobody at these shows really cares about the CD songs at all. It's a lame footnote in the legacy of GnR.  Mostly because it's not a GnR album. It's just fucking Axl and some guys. The only reason those songs are being played is for Axl to save face. He has to throw those songs out there because he can't and won't ever admit the whole CD era was a failure and a waste of time and was NOT worth ending the original/Illusion era band. The only reason they have those songs in the set is so Axl can desperately attempt to validate the CD era. 

Bono good to see you again!

[default_]

Chinese Democracy is the ruin of the band, nothing will ever justify what we lost because of this album and Axls weird shit. 

Not that it is a bad album, it just degenerated our favorite band and we'll never have that again. 

[UsedYourIllusion]

The thing is, I don't think it matters. What matters is that Axl Rose, Slash, Izzy, and Duff couldn't work out over time. Things fell apart for A LOT of reasons. The beauty of the Nu-GNR era, regardless of the lineups and music was that everyone, Slash, Axl, Duff, and Izzy became free. Free to live according to what they wanted to do, to create on their own with Velvet Revolver, solo albums and CD. I love that as a fan. Would I have preferred UYI III or live albums. Yeah, but at the same time, would we even get that unless the band went under these cathartic moments for themselves organically? The NITL tour validates that CD and all the solo acts together as a part of the GN'R story, whether or not it's what we deserved or wanted. Let's just hope for live UYI or Appetite era music and a new album

[RussTCB]

Album didn't need validation for me. It was and still is my favorite Guns N Roses album. 

[Tom-Ass]

9 hours ago, wasted said:

It’s not really a solo record because Axl didn’t write the music. It’s much more a band album in scope and dynamics. 

Plenty of solo artists release music that they didn't write.. And there is no question Axl was in charge of every note that made it on the album. 

[Tom-Ass]

6 hours ago, default_ said:

Chinese Democracy is the ruin of the band, nothing will ever justify what we lost because of this album and Axls weird shit. 

Not that it is a bad album, it just degenerated our favorite band and we'll never have that again. 

So many years lost and that is a bummer for the fans.. 

1 hour ago, RussTCB said:

Album didn't need validation for me. It was and still is my favorite Guns N Roses album. 

such a confused soul

[wasted]

6 hours ago, Tom-Ass said:

Plenty of solo artists release music that they didn't write.. And there is no question Axl was in charge of every note that made it on the album. 

When Axl was collabing snd even just waiting for the band to make finished tracks it’s hard to see it as solo. Only solo song is This I Love. If you look at the credits there’s various writers so many parts to each song. I guess you could call like The David Lee Roth Band, a solo band. But CD is not like Prince or Lenny with multi instrumentalist writing and playing all the songs. It doesn’t seem like an Elvis or Jagger album either where they just sing the songs with a band. CD was constructed and decontructed by various band line ups to the point where the songs aren’t the issue it’s more which band or member got to right. 

You’re sort of saying AFD and UYI were Axl solo records because he oversaw every track. It’s more that Izzy had lyrics on AFD and even sang UYI that makes them more obviously not an Axl solo. Bucket and Finck basically did the Slash role on CD. They made tracks for Axl to sing on which we’re saying is what made it a band.

But if we’re saying it’s lyrics and vocal melodies then maybe CD is a solo album, whereas AFD and UYI had lyrics from Izzy. 

Edited November 19, 2018 by wasted

[DieselDaisy]

Slash and Duff playing Chinese material somewhat does legitimise nugnr proceedings I suppose as it is not like most reunions whereby you usually consign the stuff that followed whatever band formation you are returning to to the toilet which is basically like regarding succeeding stuff as (at worst) an aberration, (at best) an interregnum. I don't believe Ozzy, upon rejoining Sabbath, sang too many Tony ''The Cat'' Martin songs, nor can I recall Roth singing Sammy Hagar material? Conversely Ace and Peter Criss were playing '80s Kiss songs ("Lick It Up" and "Heaven's on Fire" as I recall) after the initial goodwill of the Kiss reunion had evaporated.

Will the reunited Spice Girls (minus sour face) play material from the oft-overlooked post-Halliwell dud, 2000's Forever, one wonders - they did in 2008?

Slash and Duff playing the material sort of puts over an aura of continuity (from the nugnr era) - as does Fortus's presence.

 

Edited November 19, 2018 by DieselDaisy

[Draguns]

On 11/17/2018 at 9:51 AM, Edward Nigma said:

Bon Jovi toured extensively in the mid 90's and throughout the 00's, last I heard his voice sounds shot.

Not to turn this into a Bon Jovi discussion since this is GNR, but Jon's voice wasn't shot when I saw Bon Jovi perform in May of this year. Now it's true that Jon can't hit the high notes anymore like he did back in the day, but his voice was actually good.

I find it funny how fans and  in Jon's case media state that both Axl's and Jon's voices are  shot when that's not the case.  

[gnfnrs1972]

26 minutes ago, Draguns said:

Not to turn this into a Bon Jovi discussion since this is GNR, but Jon's voice wasn't shot when I saw Bon Jovi perform in May of this year. Now it's true that Jon can't hit the high notes anymore like he did back in the day, but his voice was actually good.

I find it funny how fans and  in Jon's case media state that both Axl's and Jon's voices are  shot when that's not the case.  

Yep, thats why I'm not gonna argue with this person.

[wasted]

4 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

Slash and Duff playing Chinese material somewhat does legitimise nugnr proceedings I suppose as it is not like most reunions whereby you usually consign the stuff that followed whatever band formation you are returning to to the toilet which is basically like regarding succeeding stuff as (at worst) an aberration, (at best) an interregnum. I don't believe Ozzy, upon rejoining Sabbath, sang too many Tony ''The Cat'' Martin songs, nor can I recall Roth singing Sammy Hagar material? Conversely Ace and Peter Criss were playing '80s Kiss songs ("Lick It Up" and "Heaven's on Fire" as I recall) after the initial goodwill of the Kiss reunion had evaporated.

Will the reunited Spice Girls (minus sour face) play material from the oft-overlooked post-Halliwell dud, 2000's Forever, one wonders - they did in 2008?

Slash and Duff playing the material sort of puts over an aura of continuity (from the nugnr era) - as does Fortus's presence.

 

Is that something about singer egos. Diamond won’t play Hagar songs. Ozzy won’t whoever sang in Sabbath. 

In a way it’s much more surprising that Axl plays Slither. And I think some of it is Slash and Duff respectin that Axl wasn’t all to blame for the split, that these were songs he gives a shit about. Whether they are GNR or not. 

I think it would be worse without a few new songs. With Slash reworking them his way it’s not unlike the old GNR way. 

In a way we got the best of all worlds. Each member got to what they wanted. Now they are giving back to the fans with a huge tour. Nobody seems that bothered about new songs at the shows. 

They still have a future I think. One more record, go out legends. 

[DieselDaisy]

1 hour ago, wasted said:

Is that something about singer egos. Diamond won’t play Hagar songs. Ozzy won’t whoever sang in Sabbath. 

In a way it’s much more surprising that Axl plays Slither. And I think some of it is Slash and Duff respectin that Axl wasn’t all to blame for the split, that these were songs he gives a shit about. Whether they are GNR or not. 

I think it would be worse without a few new songs. With Slash reworking them his way it’s not unlike the old GNR way. 

In a way we got the best of all worlds. Each member got to what they wanted. Now they are giving back to the fans with a huge tour. Nobody seems that bothered about new songs at the shows. 

They still have a future I think. One more record, go out legends. 

Yes but there is also an element of historic revisionism.

Inherently reunions are retrograde and rather an admission of defeat by the person who continued with the name through declining fortunes, Rose, Iommi, Stanley/Simmons, Corgan, etc., so the very act of reuniting rather nullifies everything that occurred between the first tenure (for Guns this year would commence 1995) and the reunion itself (for Guns, 2016). It is also about invoking pure nostalgia. Ultimately nobody cares about everything that came between: promoter, fans, band to a large part unless the name holder's ego is under siege. Sabbath fans were not annoyed that reunited (Ozzy) Sabbath were not playing shite from Seventh Star and Headless Cross. It was all about albums like Paranoid and Vol. 4.

If NITL were going about proceedings in a more ''traditional reunion way'', it would be the Appetite or Illusion line-up (or some combo of the two) and every song would be from Appetite, Lies and Illusion.

[Bailey96]

I wouldn’t say this tour validates the album but it definitely made me look at the album with a better look (no pun intended). I don’t really consider it a gnr album but it’s not terrible by any means. I think seeing slash and duff was cool for a minute but It became a bit overkill when every new song that was added into the setlist was either a cd song or a cover and then having over 5 cd songs at one point in the setlist I believe. They’ve played about 9 cd songs out of 14 on this tour and 9 out of 12 of appetite. Kind of surprise considering even casual fans going to these shows don’t really know cd songs. 

[wasted]

3 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

Yes but there is also an element of historic revisionism.

Inherently reunions are retrograde and rather an admission of defeat by the person who continued with the name through declining fortunes, Rose, Iommi, Stanley/Simmons, Corgan, etc., so the very act of reuniting rather nullifies everything that occurred between the first tenure (for Guns this year would commence 1995) and the reunion itself (for Guns, 2016). It is also about invoking pure nostalgia. Ultimately nobody cares about everything that came between: promoter, fans, band to a large part unless the name holder's ego is under siege. Sabbath fans were not annoyed that reunited (Ozzy) Sabbath were not playing shite from Seventh Star and Headless Cross. It was all about albums like Paranoid and Vol. 4.

If NITL were going about proceedings in a more ''traditional reunion way'', it would be the Appetite or Illusion line-up (or some combo of the two) and every song would be from Appetite, Lies and Illusion.

This isn’t really a reunion, it’s just Axl continuing in his own special way. After he had done what he wanted to do with CD, getting back with his old friends was a good move all round. Even Slash has been quoted as saying it’s not really like it used to be, it’s something new. What does Reprise mean? It feels more like a flashback than a reunion. There’s more a sense of deja vu than nostalgia. 

There’s also the dynamic where Diamond and Ozzy left and then came back. So everything they did without them was rubbish. Whereas Axl stayed and made sure it wasn’t, but also he wasn’t coming back into a band where Slash had been recording with Myles as GNR, so that isn’t a problem.

The main songwriter and lyricist stayed and made a record with other guitarists, but songs themselves are pretty similar. I’m sure Finck said they used to listen to old GNR and come up with stuff Axl might like to sing over. 

Maybe it’s because there was always a sense of nostalgia from 2000, most fans went to see the old songs and were intrigued by the new line ups. And that’s what CD was about, the funeral of GNR, it was like the comedown after the party. Whereas when Slash and Duff comeback it’s like a ressurection. I’ll get my robe. There’s something about posting in a robe. Gravitas. 

Edited November 19, 2018 by wasted

[DieselDaisy]

7 minutes ago, wasted said:

The main songwriter and lyricist stayed and made a record with other guitarists

Izzy Stradlin stayed in Guns and made a GN'R record with other guitarists?

 

[SoulMonster]

CD doesn't need validation. It is and will remain part of the GN'R discography regardless of the feelings of people who don't like it or what happened to the band. Facts aren't subjective to one's feelings. That being said, it is good to see Slash and Duff embrace CD songs, it really shows there are no pettiness among the band members. If only fans would follow suit….

[wasted]

31 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Izzy Stradlin stayed in Guns and made a GN'R record with other guitarists?

 

Axl had like 40% of writing credits?

I know Izzy wrote a lot and gets almost no credit, but Axl just seemed to have more strings to his bow as it progressed. 

[DieselDaisy]

Just now, wasted said:

Axl had like 40% of writing credits?

I know Izzy wrote a lot and gets almost no credit, but Axl just seemed to have more strings to his bow as it progressed. 

Izzy is the beating heart of that band. 

[wasted]

13 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

CD doesn't need validation. It is and will remain part of the GN'R discography regardless of the feelings of people who don't like it or what happened to the band. Facts aren't subjective to one's feelings. That being said, it is good to see Slash and Duff embrace CD songs, it really shows there are no pettiness among the band members. If only fans would follow suit….

As you get older you tend to see life a different way, and merch becomes much more important to world peace. 

[wasted]

1 minute ago, DieselDaisy said:

Izzy is the beating heart of that band. 

He was on AFD. He sort of wrote a couple of hits for UYI then disappeared. 

However, Axl can ttake credit for a lot of credit for songs like Jungle, Scom, Paradise,YCBM, DC, Nov rain, Estranged, Civil War. Not to mention bringing them to life live. 

[SoulMonster]

Here is something I have written before when I tried to quantify each band member's contribution to the music. It is of course to some extent subjective, but I think the end result isn't too far away from what most people "feel" about this.

Quote

The question about how important each band member has been in the song writing process came up in another thread. I tried to calculate this some time before, but spent some more time now trying to do it better. My sources are the listed song credits in the albums sleeves and any interviews where band members have talked about the song writing process. There is often a difference between these two things, the song credits may state something but statements from band members at a later date may contradict these. Who to trust? This is a hard one. There will always be a subjective part to this, and this is undeniable. One must assume Steven came up with all the drum parts to AFD, this should certainly be given some weight, his drumming is unique and adds a lot to the songs, even if he is never listed as a song writer. But how many percent should he get? And what about Duff's bass parts? He probably came up with all of them, but how important are they? I have decided to add more weight to the vocal melodies and the lead guitar, simply because in my opinion they are more dominate in the song than rhythm and drum and bass. But again, this is subjective, other people may put more emphasis on bass than solos. So no right answer. My general method has been to assign 20 % to Axl for lyrics and vocal melodies, 20 % to Slash (or whoever did lead guitar), and 10 % each to the remaining guys, UNLESS it is stated they added more than just coming up with their instrumental parts. So for instance when Axl did the vocals to Think About You, he got less than 20 % because Izzy wrote most of the lyrics and the vocal melodies, and more for Sweet Child O' Mine where Axl was more involved in shaping the song structure. For songs where I have no info I assign the default 20 or 10 % score.

APPETITE FOR DESTRUCTION

Anyway, I am not going to bore you with all the data, but here are the end percentages for Appetite for Destruction, in order of who were most responsible for creating the music on that record:

Slash: 26 %, Izzy: 24 %, Axl: 20 %, Duff 16 % and Steven 10 %.

Yes, these numbers don't add up, that is because of credits to West Arkeen and Chris Weber.

So, in terms of who was the most important musician for this fantastic record, according to my system it was Slash marginally before Izzy.

Quote

LIES

Fewer songs, some older songs. This means that Axl and Izzy gets higher song writing credits, although like AFD this record is still very much a band effort where all members add their signature touch to each song.

Axl 28 %, Izzy 25 %, Slash 20, Duff 14 %, Steven 8 %.

Quote

Use Your Illusion I.

It's getting more complicated now. The band didn't write as a team to the same extent as before and weren't all as involved as before. Steven is out, replaced with Matt. I have chosen to give Matt a score of 7 % due to his drumming being more "generic" than Steven's who I feel put more of a signature on the sings through his playing. Again, subjective and other people will fiercely disagree. Dizzy is also inn and adds organ parts here and there. I have added Paul Huge. He wasn't a band member at this time, but he will become later and he's got song writing credits for UYI1.

Anyway, here are the scores:

Axl 28 %, Slash 24 %, Izzy 21 %, Duff 11 %, Matt 7 %, Dizzy 3 %, Paul Huge 2 %.

Quote

Use Your Illusion II.

Same as for UYI1.

The scores:

Axl 35 %, Slash 21 %, Izzy 16 %, Duff 15 %, Matt 6%, Dizzy 3%, Steven 1 %.

Should also be noted here that Matt may copied Steven's drum parts on already demoed songs, so Steven should perhaps have some credit for the Illusions.

Quote

Combined scores for AFD, LIES, UYI1 and UYI2.

Tada.

Axl 28 %.

Slash 23 %.

Izzy 21 %.

Duff 14 %.

Steven & Matt 4 %.

Dizzy 2 %.

Paul Huge 1 %.

I don't think this is very off from what I hear people say. The three most important song writers/contributors in the "old guns" period was Axl, Slash and Izzy. They are usually mentioned as the three most important guys when it came to writing the songs, so I believe this correlates pretty well with what most people feel. I probably would have put Izzy somewhat higher, and Axl a little lower, if I were to guess, but these are details. Steven and Matt both got about 4  % score. This reflects the fact that I don't put a lot of weight on drumming. Hah. They got the same score due to me being partial to Steven's drumming which despite him playing on fewer songs, which is definitely subjective, I believe had more impact on the music than Matt who was a bit less unique. It was a bit surprising to me that Dizzy didn't get higher score, I always subconsciously assumed he did more when writing the music, but a lot of what he plays in concert today was written and/or played by Axl on the records.

 

[nikothebellic]

I've become addicted to GnR around 2009 and even so, I didn't consider CD as a real Guns N' Roses album as well as the band which existed then. I mean, of course, I've listened to some songs in educational purposes and have been following band's news, but never fully accepted neither of it. Maybe titular song had and still has some more wieght in my eyes, but still the overall sound was different from classical GnR. But now, "for all I've seen has changed my mind" - I discover more songs and even listen them occasionally, preferably live versions from NITL. I can't say that the album is suddenly become great now (it alwas was "okay"), but when it's played by classical members, it's just more joyful to listen. And it's not only about the fact that Slash and Duff play and accept it, it's about the sound. It has changed to more classical GnR, becoming more "glammy" and heavy, less electric. So, I think it's fully justified, that CD is validates nowadays more than before.   

Edited November 19, 2018 by nikothebellic

[DieselDaisy]

At the end of the day, if Little Mix acquired the rights to the name ''Guns N' Roses'', subsequently altering their band name and plastering ''Guns N' Roses'' on their album overs, Little Mix and those albums will no more be Guns N' Roses than Rose's ego driven nugnr project was. The essence of Guns N' Roses is disseminated among the Appetite bandmembers and you need a quorum of that band (3/5 say?) to produce something that can legitimately be called Guns N' Roses. 

[RussTCB]

2 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

CD doesn't need validation. It is and will remain part of the GN'R discography regardless of the feelings of people who don't like it or what happened to the band. Facts aren't subjective to one's feelings. That being said, it is good to see Slash and Duff embrace CD songs, it really shows there are no pettiness among the band members. If only fans would follow suit….

We actually made points similar to this on @Gambit83's podcast yesterday. Episode should be up at some point today, but we were talking about exactly this at one point.

[soon]

CD is a fucking epic album! Does Slash noodling on those tracks do anything good for them? Not as often as I'd hope for.

Also would've been cool if Slash didn't walk away in the 90's. Axl stuck to his values:"Your only validation is in living your own life"