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Thoughts on Axls' essay "Fear N' Freedom"


Serpens Albus

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9 minutes ago, Serpens Albus said:

I find Mr. Axl Roses' essay in the Chinese Democracy liner notes very interesting. I would like to know what you guys think about it.

Here it is without the images in the liner notes. https://highexistence.com/topic/fear-n-freedom-an-essay-by-axl-rose/

Link doesn't work. It's been discussed many times over the years though. 

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Here is the full essay in text form:

Quote

 

Freedom N’ Fear: The Future of China and Western Society

What if you lived in constant fear… knowing that you could be arrested at any time without cause; without warning; thrown in prison; tried and convicted; sentenced with virtually no chance for appeal or reprieve; even executed without representation by a jury or family?

What if you were informed by the government that you and your family were allowed to visit your loved one in prison, but before you were allowed to do so, you were suddenly informed that without notice the State had them executed?

What if the degree of force brought against much less than minor misdemeanors – or outright innocence – was as extreme as for the strongest offenses and nearly a part of your every existing minute? What if you knew that a friend or a family member, a loved one, could be ripped from your life instantly with little or no recourse?

What if nearly everyone and anyone could literally be a government informant for information regarding remedial discussions in areas of human rights; Buddhism, Tibet, the Dali Lama, different systems of government, religion or spirituality or conversing about and with anything other than disdain for the way of life, government and commerce in western society? If you were born into such a predicament and circumstance, what would you do?

What if you felt so helpless and afraid that you were compelled to sell your own child you love because you cannot afford the financial penalty and other consequences due to China’s ‘one-child’ rule?

What if your contact with the world outside your country was controlled by your government to the degree that you had no real awareness of even basic global current events? What if you lived in a country where the discussion of a word associated with the name of your country, such as "democracy," in any manner but disdain could bring severe consequences, what would you do?

In my opinion, on some level what obviously is an understatement, is that the true core of a multifaceted perception, and the reality of life for an entire country with the largest population in the world – and my particular focus – is that you would suffer… daily. Unless your mind and/or education could maneuver through the minefield of communist law enforcement and government bureaucracy, where the risk is so real and psychologically devastating that living in obvious fear and denial are nearly positive forms of action, reaction, and daily survival or protection for yourself and loved ones… You would see suffering and you may even choose to simply see suffering as a means of survival.

I have no disrespect for the People of The Republic of China whatsoever. In fact, for reasons I can’t explain, I have a deeply rooted and firm respect, compassion and love for the Chinese people.

Our song, "Chinese Democracy," in its irreverance, is for positive purposes and communication with all segments of society; music fans (Guns N’ Roses fans in particular) and, especially, the western media, to open a dialogue in areas not necessarily focused on both current events and global social responsibilities.

When I was fortunate enough to visit both Hong Kong and Mainland China, I experienced different levels of fear at all times in relation to the particular area I visited. I did not experience the fear in the sense of having feared for myself, I witnessed it in others everywhere around me, and kept my demeanor calm, observant and extremely polite. What I felt was emotional heartbreak. I’ve never witnessed so many individuals going about their lives in such a degree of visible fear, especially the average citizen in the spectrum of social, economic or social position. The military were nearby in some form or another, from one lone sentry to marching drill teams. It was not like a movie as it was much more exreme in the sense that this was real. I did not ask or talk about any of these issues with anyone in public.

The use of the two words "Chinese" and "Democracy" was intentional, though perhaps not in the way many may think. I do not purport to know what system of government is best for the people of China. I feel that the prejudice and closed mindedness of at least many outspoken Guns N’ Roses fans seems to warrnat an awareness of the realities of a constantly evolving and ever growing world where China continues to play an ever increasing role.

China, whether anyone likes it or not, will become more and more a part of our daily lives and an integral force to the future of our planet. To that, without acquainting ourselves to severe realities of China as a super power, with all she has to offer and brings both to the future and into our lives, this continuing transition will be less than pleasant and can go in diverse directions most would feel are either inhibiting, unacceptable or unconscionable. Yet, economics and government position could force us into accepting these conditions, as is the case now.

There is no way I can touch on all the issues important to such a subject here. Nor do I claim to be an authority or even knowledgeable of all the facts of China. What I do claim, as an ibhabitant of our world, that through my own eyes I have perceived a deep level of pain not evident in the average citizen in western society that is directly related to how the people in China are governed. Why would a government want their people to be under such a level of fear, stress and emotional bondage?

I do not entertain delusions that change will happen overnight. What I do know is that whether anyone likes it or not, China is coming and she brings an oppressive force with her beyond anything we have experienced in our daily lives and until we familiarize ourselves, it will be increasingly difficult for many. Tensions may prove much more taxing than need be and have many unsatisfactory conclusions.

Basic human rights are at the forefront of these concerns, not just for China but for the planet. The obligation to offer and maintain these rights for ourselves and all citizens of this planet is a responsibility shared by all. The request and plea is for the government of China to recognize that her people love her and give all that they must to see her survive. China can prosper, grow and thrive without the unnecessary level of fear instilled by the government and the intolerable degree of oppression, social and basic human rights abuse exercised by those in power.

Religious freedoms, those chosen by the people and not the government, and the recognition and respect of cultures and religions of others is imperative to both the health of the nation and the planet as a whole. Those who rule with fear in my opinion have a deeper and greater fear that rules them from inside (which must be addressed, diminished and steered in alternate directions), than those that form the basis for governing people who willingly seek to follow, fight for and love their country.

Please forgive me if I’ve said too much or you feel this is not my place or my business. As an inhabitant of our planet, I respectfully disagree as in my opinion this is our obligation to each other.

These are merely a few thoughts out of many to keep in mind as we move forward in this century. Thank you for taking the time to read some of mine.

All the best and God Bless,
Sincerely, Axl Rose

 

 

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I wonder how can you judge a whole society if you've been there just for a month or so, didn't interact with their people, do not know what is really like living there and you watch all of it from the limited lens of your western mind.

Painting China as a monster is part of the job of discrediting this huge country that has been rising up and turning into the fear of Western bullies.

Unlike other superpowers, China has never tried to invade other countries and they seem very respectful of other cultures. So I do not agree with Axl, that China is coming and bringing their "oppressive force" with them. That's the twisted Western (U.S.A.) interpretation but it does not translate to reality. At least, not by now.

Axl fails to understand the Chinese culture. He thinks everybody has to be act western, or follow the USA's way of living. There's nothing more wrong and more oppressive than that. Let people be whatever they want to be, with their religion, their culture, their customs, their idiosincracy. They do not bother you, they do not try to impose their beliefs onto anyone else, unlike certain superpowers, who think they rule the world and their views of life are the only ones that are valid.

 

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28 minutes ago, killuridols said:

I wonder how can you judge a whole society if you've been there just for a month or so, didn't interact with their people, do not know what is really like living there and you watch all of it from the limited lens of your western mind.

Painting China as a monster is part of the job of discrediting this huge country that has been rising up and turning into the fear of Western bullies.

Unlike other superpowers, China has never tried to invade other countries and they seem very respectful of other cultures. So I do not agree with Axl, that China is coming and bringing their "oppressive force" with them. That's the twisted Western (U.S.A.) interpretation but it does not translate to reality. At least, not by now.

Axl fails to understand the Chinese culture. He thinks everybody has to be act western, or follow the USA's way of living. There's nothing more wrong and more oppressive than that. Let people be whatever they want to be, with their religion, their culture, their customs, their idiosincracy. They do not bother you, they do not try to impose their beliefs onto anyone else, unlike certain superpowers, who think they rule the world and their views of life are the only ones that are valid.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-45474279

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System

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I would have more respect for axl if he was part of those that help injured bears in china that use barbaric acts to take out certain fluids because the chinese believe in its medicines. Axl writing notes about the pain of chinese people that he has seen through touring only, not because he lived there for a year talking to the people doesnt give him much cred.unless muscians are willing to make a difference through human intervention STFU.

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Being arrested at any time without cause happens in Latin America too :rolleyes:

2 minutes ago, Sydney Fan said:

I would have more respect for axl if he was part of those that help injured bears in china that use barbaric acts to take out certain fluids because the chinese believe in its medicines.

What about helping people in his own country?

Human rights violations in the USA occur daily but he has to put his eyes miles and miles away, as if staying in a fabulous hotel in Honk Kong would give him any deep insight of what is really like to live in China.

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1 hour ago, killuridols said:

I wonder how can you judge a whole society if you've been there just for a month or so, didn't interact with their people, do not know what is really like living there and you watch all of it from the limited lens of your western mind.

Painting China as a monster is part of the job of discrediting this huge country that has been rising up and turning into the fear of Western bullies.

Unlike other superpowers, China has never tried to invade other countries and they seem very respectful of other cultures. So I do not agree with Axl, that China is coming and bringing their "oppressive force" with them. That's the twisted Western (U.S.A.) interpretation but it does not translate to reality. At least, not by now.

Axl fails to understand the Chinese culture. He thinks everybody has to be act western, or follow the USA's way of living. There's nothing more wrong and more oppressive than that. Let people be whatever they want to be, with their religion, their culture, their customs, their idiosincracy. They do not bother you, they do not try to impose their beliefs onto anyone else, unlike certain superpowers, who think they rule the world and their views of life are the only ones that are valid.

 

:question: It's well-known how Chinese citizens are oppressed by their government. Just at the top of my head there's people who are imprisoned, tortured, killed and sometimes even have their organs harvested simply for practicing Falun Gong, of all things (referenced in the title track); citizens aren't even allowed to access news from outside the government's control, becoming oblivious to the world around them; the infamous 'one-child policy' that lead to increased abandonments, abortions and straight up infanticide (although thankfully rarer in recent times); etc etc, hence why many choose to live in Hong Kong instead, leading to huge overpopulation there too.

Of course no country is perfect, but do you really think someone in China can criticise their government the way that Americans criticise Trump and expect to stick around much longer? That's pretty oppressive if you ask me.

China is a beautiful country and culture, but it's government are downright terrifying.

Axl even said that he didn't claim to know what was right for China politically, and was just writing about what he witnessed in regard to the effects the current regime had on it's people, and trying to encourage the rest of the world not to take what they had (i.e freedom) for granted. I thought everything in the essay was pretty much standard, although I agree that the invasion part wasn't relevant. 

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1 hour ago, killuridols said:

I wonder how can you judge a whole society if you've been there just for a month or so, didn't interact with their people, do not know what is really like living there and you watch all of it from the limited lens of your western mind.

Painting China as a monster is part of the job of discrediting this huge country that has been rising up and turning into the fear of Western bullies.

Unlike other superpowers, China has never tried to invade other countries and they seem very respectful of other cultures. So I do not agree with Axl, that China is coming and bringing their "oppressive force" with them. That's the twisted Western (U.S.A.) interpretation but it does not translate to reality. At least, not by now.

Axl fails to understand the Chinese culture. He thinks everybody has to be act western, or follow the USA's way of living. There's nothing more wrong and more oppressive than that. Let people be whatever they want to be, with their religion, their culture, their customs, their idiosincracy. They do not bother you, they do not try to impose their beliefs onto anyone else, unlike certain superpowers, who think they rule the world and their views of life are the only ones that are valid.

 

You obviously havent paid attention to what China has been doing in the last 30 years... Granted, the US and west aren't free of crimes or anything like that. But you're painting china in a very, "we can't understand them" light. I don't think Axl knows china at all. But man, they have some bloody hands, even relatively recently; doing some shady things

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3 minutes ago, Azifwekare said:

:question: It's well-known how Chinese citizens are oppressed by their government

How is it well known? By the reports of biased media like the BBC?

Most of what we get from China is a narrative built up in the Western media. Why should I take all those reports as the holy word?

If people in China cant do anything or talk to anyone, how do these western journalists know what's going on over there for real? I wouldn't be talking to foreign media if I knew my life is under risk.

9 minutes ago, Azifwekare said:

Of course no country is perfect, but do you really think someone in China can criticise their government the way that Americans criticise Trump and expect to stick around much longer? That's pretty oppressive if you ask me.

If the country is such a mess then why there's no revolution against the government? If the country is so bad and people are so sad, how come China is becoming a rising power?

Because there are many oppressed countries in the Western side and none of them has developed in the way China has. So I wonder how it is possible for defeated people living in fear to be at the same time the ones carrying the future? That narrative makes no fucking sense to me.

14 minutes ago, Azifwekare said:

Axl even said that he didn't claim to know what was right for China politically, and was just writing about what he witnessed in regard to the effects the current regime had on it's people,

I think Axl has failed to read the culture of Chinese people. Maybe what he perceives as fear is nothing but humble, discretion, a different way of being. Unlike him, who is loud and outspoken.

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55 minutes ago, killuridols said:

How is it well known? By the reports of biased media like the BBC?

Most of what we get from China is a narrative built up in the Western media. Why should I take all those reports as the holy word?

If people in China cant do anything or talk to anyone, how do these western journalists know what's going on over there for real? I wouldn't be talking to foreign media if I knew my life is under risk.

If the country is such a mess then why there's no revolution against the government? If the country is so bad and people are so sad, how come China is becoming a rising power?

Because there are many oppressed countries in the Western side and none of them has developed in the way China has. So I wonder how it is possible for defeated people living in fear to be at the same time the ones carrying the future? That narrative makes no fucking sense to me.

I think Axl has failed to read the culture of Chinese people. Maybe what he perceives as fear is nothing but humble, discretion, a different way of being. Unlike him, who is loud and outspoken.

Tibet, Taiwan. Predatory loans with higher than normal interest rates to get African and South American countries indebted to them, violating EEZs of nearly every country around them as they claim the sovereign territory of other nations to benefit Chinese exports. 

 

No one is saying that the west is perfect or doesn't have it's oppressive past or isn't oppressing people currently. youre straw Manning people. I didn't even have to bring up the tiananmen square incident.. low wages, child labor, factories that have suicide nets to catch workers who can't make a fair wage.. 

 

Beneath the governents control IS  a deep culture that is largely misunderstood by the west. But most of the economic progress they've had is due to turning towards captialist practices (for better or worse). If you really wanna know more about china, I can link you to the email of my native Chinese undergrad professor who I wrote my graduation paper for. She can point you to dozens of monographs that detail china, in the past and now. Don't just assume everyone is an ostrich or a nitwit mouthbreather who only listens to the BBC or Western news

Edited by UsedYourIllusion
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9 minutes ago, UsedYourIllusion said:

No one is saying that the west is perfect or doesn't have it's oppressive past or isn't oppressing people currently. youre straw Manning people. I didn't even have to bring up the tiananmen square incident.. low wages, child labor, factories that have suicide nets to catch workers who can't make a fair wage.. 

I'm not denying China has its wrongdoings like any other country in the planet.

My point is that I'm bothered by the hypocrisy of the Western man and Axl's essay is full of that western-centric crap.

Creating an enemy out of China is what these governments and media want. It is necessary for some people's agendas that China, a major competitor, is perceived in the worst light possible and I think Axl's essay contribute to that.

I believe that before pointing fingers at others, one must have their own house pretty clean and that's something the USA and many other superpowers can't do.

Bloody hands, dictatorships, regimes, massive killings, citizen survilleance, death penalty, rapes, child abuse, child labor, etc.... there's plenty of that on this side of the world so it is my duty to stay focused on that and remind everyone that we are not in position of accussing China of anything, much less now.

19 minutes ago, UsedYourIllusion said:

Don't just assume everyone is an ostrich or a nitwit mouthbreather who only listens to the BBC or Western news

Not everyone but a vast majority of people don't have a clue about China and they consume what media feeds them.

If you have interesting links to papers or serious work, post them here and share them with everyone. You will be doing a community service.

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10 hours ago, killuridols said:

I wonder how can you judge a whole society if you've been there just for a month or so, didn't interact with their people, do not know what is really like living there and you watch all of it from the limited lens of your western mind.

Painting China as a monster is part of the job of discrediting this huge country that has been rising up and turning into the fear of Western bullies.

Unlike other superpowers, China has never tried to invade other countries and they seem very respectful of other cultures. So I do not agree with Axl, that China is coming and bringing their "oppressive force" with them. That's the twisted Western (U.S.A.) interpretation but it does not translate to reality. At least, not by now.

Axl fails to understand the Chinese culture. He thinks everybody has to be act western, or follow the USA's way of living. There's nothing more wrong and more oppressive than that. Let people be whatever they want to be, with their religion, their culture, their customs, their idiosincracy. They do not bother you, they do not try to impose their beliefs onto anyone else, unlike certain superpowers, who think they rule the world and their views of life are the only ones that are valid.

 

:lol:

Are you for real?

I don't think you know many things about China, the history of China, or have met many Chinese people.

The problem now is China doesn't let people be what they want.

And about the media: where else would you get Chinese news but on Western media, if you live here? Still seems a better option than the state censored Chinese media and internet, no? We're talking about a country that censors the internet, censors the press, and gets rid of independent journalists.

Is it wrong to say that's awful? I don't think so. It doesn't mean you think everything is great in the west.

Oh, and we have lots of Chinese immigrants here and could always ask them how it was over there if we don't trust the media. But I would assume it's better here, or they'd be going back, right?

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It’s difficult because most Chinese people are happy with their government because literally billions of people have been pulled out of poverty. 

There’s no doubt China has less on the freedom scale. It’s not North Korea by any means. I think some of the fear westerners see isn’t there really. Try posting a letter or getting on the subway nobody gives a fuck. 

I guess I would say think of democracy as terrorism is to the west. Terrorists want to destroy the stability of the west. That’s kind of what democracy does, it destabalizes things in certain countries. 

What is weird is that in many ways the Democrats really would like the US to be like China in many ways. 

But from a more Libertarian perspective Axl makes some valid points. I just don’t know what his context is. It seems caring and issue based. Defintely Chinese gov done some bad things. It’s just within the context of US foreign policy it’s not that bad. But on priciple yes, but why pick on China specifically. I think honestly any tourists coming here, seeing the country, you are safe, much safer than a lot of countries. Yuge. I know I sound like Trump. I guess I’m just a socialist who likes to dance part 2. 

The song itself I see more personally, you oppressed fight back or stand up. It could apply to Trump more than China. 

I’m watching Man in the high Castle. If they beat me to death with sticks I’m happy how my life turn out. Such as it is. 

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