Thoughts on Axls' essay "Fear N' Freedom"

[killuridols]

1 hour ago, Lio said:

Are you for real?

I don't think you know many things about China, the history of China, or have met many Chinese people

What about you, are you well versed in everything China? 

I dont brag of knowing about China, the history of China or having met many Chinese people, even though they are an important community in my country, Chinese supermarkets are a thing here, and the Chinese government just signed more than 30 agreements of collaboration with the Argentina government.

But maybe you can tell me more about all of that, since you must be the China expert of the board. 

[Lio]

1 minute ago, killuridols said:

What about you, are you well versed in everything China? 

I dont brag of knowing about China, the history of China or having met many Chinese people, even though they are an important community in my country, Chinese supermarkets are a thing here, and the Chinese government just signed more than 30 agreements of collaboration with the Argentina government.

But maybe you can tell me more about all of that, since you must be the China expert of the board. 

Not an expert by a long stretch. I don't know a lot, but at least I do know China isn't always respectful of other cultures and I do know they have invaded countries.

[killuridols]

52 minutes ago, wasted said:

I’m watching Man in the high Castle. If they beat me to death with sticks I’m happy how my life turn out. Such as it is.

Your opinion is important, I think and your experience pretty interesting. 

If you don't mind, I might ask how do you feel living there ? For how long have you lived there? Is your life similar to the rest of Chinese people, have you assimilated their culture or do you stay within your own?

[UsedYourIllusion]

9 hours ago, killuridols said:

I'm not denying China has its wrongdoings like any other country in the planet.

My point is that I'm bothered by the hypocrisy of the Western man and Axl's essay is full of that western-centric crap.

Creating an enemy out of China is what these governments and media want. It is necessary for some people's agendas that China, a major competitor, is perceived in the worst light possible and I think Axl's essay contribute to that.

I believe that before pointing fingers at others, one must have their own house pretty clean and that's something the USA and many other superpowers can't do.

Bloody hands, dictatorships, regimes, massive killings, citizen survilleance, death penalty, rapes, child abuse, child labor, etc.... there's plenty of that on this side of the world so it is my duty to stay focused on that and remind everyone that we are not in position of accussing China of anything, much less now.

Not everyone but a vast majority of people don't have a clue about China and they consume what media feeds them.

If you have interesting links to papers or serious work, post them here and share them with everyone. You will be doing a community service.

I think the most important thing to take away from stuff like this, is almost no countries hands are clean. Criticizing government's for their actions, even if we are also guitly is what's responsible; as long as you're willing to do the same for your own government. A murder can still be correct in telling you murder is wrong. Although in context to Axl, I think Axl is well intentioned but a product of the cold war and his time.

[wasted]

16 minutes ago, killuridols said:

Your opinion is important, I think and your experience pretty interesting. 

If you don't mind, I might ask how do you feel living there ? For how long have you lived there? Is your life similar to the rest of Chinese people, have you assimilated their culture or do you stay within your own?

It’s been 18 years of pain. I’m integrated to a certain degree but I’m not chinese or making my living selling vinegar in the countryside. I’m part of the financial capital of china. I experience some of the realities of life here. You can argue about the principles or morality of certain aspects. 

I think Axl was making ideological points mostly. Just like in Russia, as much as we paint them as the enemy, there’s Russian people who just want a loaf of bread and to feel safe.  

I gues I’m just saying within the context of US foreign policy I don’t think China is that bad. Then compared to other countries like NK, middle east it’s not a bad place to live or go on holiday. 

 

Edited December 5, 2018 by wasted

[killuridols]

6 minutes ago, UsedYourIllusion said:

Criticizing government's for their actions, even if we are also guitly is what's responsible; as long as you're willing to do the same for your own government. A murder can still be correct in telling you murder is wrong. Although in context to Axl, I think Axl is well intentioned but a product of the cold war and his time.

Right.

Axl never got critical with his own government before going after China and he had plenty of things to talk about.

I do agree with you that he seems to have good intentions in what he expresses, but he falls into the westercentric narrative way too often, so in my view, that makes the whole essay something I can't take much too seriously.

8 minutes ago, wasted said:

It’s been 18 years of pain. I’m integrated to a certain degree but I’m not chinese or making my living selling vinegar in the countryside. I’m part of the financial capital of china. I experience some of the realities of life here. You can argue about the principles or morality of certain aspects. 

I think Axl was making ideological points mostly. Just like in Russia, as much as we paint them as the enemy, there’s Russian people who just want a loaf of bread and to feel safe.  

Wow, that's a long time, haha. Awesome! 

Yeah, that happens everywhere I think. Like, people living in New York do not experience the same kind of life of someone in Idaho.

[wasted]

9 minutes ago, killuridols said:

Right.

Axl never got critical with his own government before going after China and he had plenty of things to talk about.

I do agree with you that he seems to have good intentions in what he expresses, but he falls into the westercentric narrative way too often, so in my view, that makes the whole essay something I can't take much too seriously.

Wow, that's a long time, haha. Awesome! 

Yeah, that happens everywhere I think. Like, people living in New York do not experience the same kind of life of someone in Idaho.

That’s sort of it. I’m like a chinese person living in NYC. Although there’s no Englandtown, but there is a expat bar street that I never go to. I live in Japanese area of the Hai. So I’m a Immigrant. Nobody talks to me. I just got this bottle of Suntory and a copy of CD and mygnrforum.com. Death could be forgiveness. 

 

[Ratam]

2 hours ago, Lio said:

Are you for real?

I don't think you know many things about China, the history of China, or have met many Chinese people.

The problem now is China doesn't let people be what they want.

And about the media: where else would you get Chinese news but on Western media, if you live here? Still seems a better option than the state censored Chinese media and internet, no? We're talking about a country that censors the internet, censors the press, and gets rid of independent journalists.

Is it wrong to say that's awful? I don't think so. It doesn't mean you think everything is great in the west.

Oh, and we have lots of Chinese immigrants here and could always ask them how it was over there if we don't trust the media. But I would assume it's better here, or they'd be going back, right?

we here have lots chinese immigrants, most they has supermarkets, almost has  one for block, is impressive, chinese people has great work ethic.

[soon]

This thread:

Wasted cant watch it because he lives in China where YT is censored. Fucking YouTube?! Incredible.

 

[killuridols]

6 minutes ago, wasted said:

That’s sort of it. I’m like a chinese person living in NYC. Although there’s no Englandtown, but there is a expat bar street that I never go to. I live in Japanese area of the Hai. So I’m a Immigrant. Nobody talks to me. I just got this bottle of Suntory and a copy of CD and mygnrforum.com. Death could be forgiveness. 

Why nobody talks to you? Do you have family of your own there?

[wasted]

6 minutes ago, killuridols said:

Why nobody talks to you? Do you have family of your own there?

You know when you walk into Harlem? It seems gamg related. Forget it Wasted, it’s J-Town. 

 

[wasted]

11 minutes ago, soon said:

This thread:

Wasted cant watch it because he lives in China where YT is censored. Fucking YouTube?! Incredible.

 

It’s not censored, it’s just that nobody in China wants to watch youtube. Can you access Youku.com? Maybe but nobody wants to. I think there is somekind of censorship on both sides. It’s mostly a cultural or language thing. 

Another thing is that just about anyone in China thinks thay are better than anyone else in the world. Because they are from the middle kingdom, they aren’t victims. They don’t want to use youtube. Huawei built and owns the internet infrastructure. China owns half of Texas. 

[soon]

I was in a band with a guy from China and we became pretty close. His parents were professionals back home in China and sent him to Canada in time for high school. They couldn't stand the thought of him living his life there. His parents, therefore, weren't allowed to travel to see him because of the Chinese Govts fears that they wouldn't come back to China where they serve as DRs. And he had to wait until he was a full citizen of Canada to go see them. Was very sad. Last I spoke with him he still wasn't a citizen. He got married and his parents couldn't be there.

I live on the edge of China Town and see the many Chinese Christian churches. I've spoken with some who fled China to practice their faith, freely. They do a lot to serve the non-Chinese poor people who populate the area, and they cant comprehend how we allow for all this poverty given that we have choice, opportunity and the ability to elect officials who will alleviate poverty. Also in China Town is that famous 'better the in USA' Canadian Chinese Food!!!!!

Many of the kids in my life are learning Mandarin. I think that's pretty common now for those with the ability and resources? And I think the shift towards kids learning Chinese kinda started around the time Axl was making CD. So I don't think its so random it would have his attention. The phrase "learn how to say 'do you want fries with that?' in Chinese" comes to mind but I cant recall where it came from. And then 9/11 rocked the collective US psyche. The new normal, that Fortress America was hit, that they are vulnerable and loosing global dominance. This was all happening during the germination of CD. So I think it was in the zeit geist to be thinking about these things. So for Axl to take the angle of concern for the people of China, rather then fear of its million-strong standing Army and ability to call in debt, is kinda interesting and nuanced by comparison to the larger Western Narrative, imho.

3 minutes ago, wasted said:

It’s not censored, it’s just that nobody in China wants to watch youtube. Can you access Youku.com? Maybe but nobody wants to. I think there is somekind of censorship on both sides. It’s mostly a cultural or language thing. 

 

True or false: you cannot see YouTube videos?

And you don't know the content of the one you are responding to?

[wasted]

3 minutes ago, soon said:

I was in a band with a guy from China and we became pretty close. His parents were professionals back home in China and sent him to Canada in time for high school. They couldn't stand the thought of him living his life there. His parents, therefore, weren't allowed to travel to see him because of the Chinese Govts fears that they wouldn't come back to China where they serve as DRs. And he had to wait until he was a full citizen of Canada to go see them. Was very sad. Last I spoke with him he still wasn't a citizen. He got married and his parents couldn't be there.

I live on the edge of China Town and see the many Chinese Christian churches. I've spoken with some who fled China to practice their faith, freely. They do a lot to serve the non-Chinese poor people who populate the area, and they cant comprehend how we allow for all this poverty given that we have choice, opportunity and the ability to elect officials who will alleviate poverty. Also in China Town is that famous 'better the in USA' Canadian Chinese Food!!!!!

Many of the kids in my life are learning Mandarin. I think that's pretty common now for those with the ability and resources? And I think the shift towards kids learning Chinese kinda started around the time Axl was making CD. So I don't think its so random it would have his attention. The phrase "learn how to say 'do you want fries with that?' in Chinese" comes to mind but I cant recall where it came from. And then 9/11 rocked the collective US psyche. The new normal, that Fortress America was hit, that they are vulnerable and loosing global dominance. This was all happening during the germination of CD. So I think it was in the zeit geist to be thinking about these things. So for Axl to take the angle of concern for the people of China, rather then fear of its million-strong standing Army and ability to call in debt, is kinda interesting and nuanced by comparison to the larger Western Narrative, imho.

True or false: you cannot see YouTube videos?

And you don't know the content of the one you are responding to?

I can if I get a VPN?

I can find out, I’ve just never bothered to check. 

Just wanting to win doesn’t really reveal the truth. There’s a lot more at stake. US propaganda can cause a lot of unneeded violence and unrest. It’s a distraction from their own foreign policy. 

 

 

[wasted]

3 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

China is currently livid with NZ because my government/our spy agency decided not to grant Huawei security clearance meaning government officials etc aren't allowed to use Huawei phones. And they're openly pissed off about it because they want to spy on us more easily lol. 

It’s not really that, it’s just they want the money to stay in the west.  Fair enough. Same happens in China. They want people using Chinese social media/products. There’s a lot of commercial interests. Just don’t demonize each other. 

Edited December 5, 2018 by wasted

[LadyMarian]

13 hours ago, killuridols said:

I wonder how can you judge a whole society if you've been there just for a month or so, didn't interact with their people, do not know what is really like living there and you watch all of it from the limited lens of your western mind.

Painting China as a monster is part of the job of discrediting this huge country that has been rising up and turning into the fear of Western bullies.

Unlike other superpowers, China has never tried to invade other countries and they seem very respectful of other cultures. So I do not agree with Axl, that China is coming and bringing their "oppressive force" with them. That's the twisted Western (U.S.A.) interpretation but it does not translate to reality. At least, not by now.

Axl fails to understand the Chinese culture. He thinks everybody has to be act western, or follow the USA's way of living. There's nothing more wrong and more oppressive than that. Let people be whatever they want to be, with their religion, their culture, their customs, their idiosincracy. They do not bother you, they do not try to impose their beliefs onto anyone else, unlike certain superpowers, who think they rule the world and their views of life are the only ones that are valid.

 

Umm.. Wait, what!?  China has never tried to invade other countries and seem respectful? I assume you’ve never been there? Or read the news? 

I went there for the first time in 1992, just in time to see it before the huge reforms going on at the same time started to take effect. 

I also finally managed to get a travel permit to Tibet a few years ago. I think e.g. the Tibetans would gravely disagree with your statement.  Having seen the destruction of old Lhasa and the snipers on the roofs with my own eyes and the check points around the countryside roads, it’s just ridiculous to claim that China is a nice country that never invaded anyone. Tibet is only one example of more current history. Maybe you want to look into the history of China too? 

From my own experience, I would say that the article is quite spot on. But maybe you have more insights into this.  

They’re also all over Africa, buying the countries with money this time and not invading in the normal way. In general what I’ve seen and heard they are quite racist too. 

 

[wasted]

Just seems very one sided in the context of US foreign policy. China and the US are now working together to mutual benefit. That’s what soon was talking about up there. There is somekind of partnership going on amongst the other stuff. 

9 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

They're specifically getting pissed off because my government won't be using their phones. The phones are still sold here to the public and I'm using one to write this. It's because they're wanting to spy.

Elon Musk thinks you silly. 

[killuridols]

35 minutes ago, soon said:

And he had to wait until he was a full citizen of Canada to go see them. Was very sad. Last I spoke with him he still wasn't a citizen. He got married and his parents couldn't be there.

That's funny.  Same happened to some acquaintances of mine.  They have their father living in the USA for 16 years and they can't go visit him since the USA government will not grant them the visa. Actually, if you say you have family or friends in the USA, they won't give you the visa here. Grandmas crying at the U.S. ambassy because they are not allowed to go see their grandchildren....

39 minutes ago, soon said:

Many of the kids in my life are learning Mandarin. I think that's pretty common now for those with the ability and resources? And I think the shift towards kids learning Chinese kinda started around the time Axl was making CD.

Yes, same here. Actually it started way before CD release time for us. There are many Mandarin courses in my city, each year there is more opportunity to learn and I've been thinking about it for quite some time now. 

The Chinese presence in Argentina has got more prominent in the last decade and after the agreements signed during G20 it will only rise up.

We have a second generation of Chinese immigrants with their children assimilated to our culture and customs. They are hard workers and mostly respectful. 

[wasted]

1 minute ago, Oldest Goat said:

If you or Elon Musk think that then you're stupid. It's silly not to be extremely naive? Whatever.

I seriously doubt China care about spying on US citizens with Huawei phones man. Really none of us are that interesting. The corporate interests outweigh these personal invasions of privacy However immoral. I mean possibly but you have to take it globally not just China. Just because they came up building your iphones and making shit for you, now suddenly they are the enemy again? 

[killuridols]

2 minutes ago, wasted said:

I seriously doubt China care about spying on US citizens with Huawei phones man. Really none of us are that interesting. The corporate interests outweigh these personal invasions of privacy However immoral. I mean possibly but you have to take it globally not just China. Just because they came up building your iphones and making shit for you, now suddenly they are the enemy again? 

Haha what about what was found on the iPhone's a while ago? 

Accussing China of spying is so ridiculous because almost every country in the world now spies on their citizens, not with phones, with their digitalized life and omg Google, Apple, Facebook are the biggest spies on earth!! 

[wasted]

4 minutes ago, killuridols said:

That's funny.  Same happened to some acquaintances of mine.  They have their father living in the USA for 16 years and they can't go visit him since the USA government will not grant them the visa. Actually, if you say you have family or friends in the USA, they won't give you the visa here. Grandmas crying at the U.S. ambassy because they are not allowed to go see their grandchildren....

Yes, same here. Actually it started way before CD release time for us. There are many Mandarin courses in my city, each year there is more opportunity to learn and I've been thinking about it for quite some time now. 

The Chinese presence in Argentina has got more prominent in the last decade and after the agreements signed during G20 it will only rise up.

We have a second generation of Chinese immigrants with their children assimilated to our culture and customs. They are hard workers and mostly respectful. 

But there are also a lot of Chinese that study abroad that comeback to China and bring back a lot of talent and new ideas. I think to demonize China as some sort of evil superpower and the people isn’t the best way forward. 

[wasted]

1 minute ago, killuridols said:

Haha what about what was found on the iPhone's a while ago? 

Accussing China of spying is so ridiculous because almost every country in the world now spies on their citizens, not with phones, with their digitalized life and omg Google, Apple, Facebook are the biggest spies on earth!! 

I think that’s my whole point. Just context. Obama built the biggest spying network in the history of the world, yet Huawei is a threat because they are Chinese company. It’s a joke. 

[killuridols]

1 minute ago, wasted said:

But there are also a lot of Chinese that study abroad that comeback to China and bring back a lot of talent and new ideas. I think to demonize China as some sort of evil superpower and the people isn’t the best way forward. 

The Empire losing power and that reflects on their agenda with their media synchronized to echo their bullshit.

It's an old mechanism, though. We've seen this shit for centuries.

[wasted]

3 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

For like the 3rd time: China has expressed outrage because my government officials and spy agency are not allowed to use Huawei.

Yes that’s pretty offensive. It’s like saying Chinese can’t eat NZ Lanb because they are trying to poison chinese people. 

[killuridols]

2 minutes ago, wasted said:

I think that’s my whole point. Just context. Obama built the biggest spying network in the history of the world, yet Huawei is a threat because they are Chinese company. It’s a joke. 

Huawei is huge in Chile. I saw it last year when I was there, most people had a Huawei phone.

Apple is just jealous, lol