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Which orchestras have played on Chinese Democracy


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34 minutes ago, EvH said:

Wasn't it all synths?

Axl: I have a lot of respect for people that do that. On Chinese Democracy most of the Orchestration on that is kind of like three electronic orchestras and two real orchestras. One's Marco Beltrami, one's Paul Buckmaster- who did a lot of Rolling Stones and Man Across the Water Elton John stuff and we blended all of those orchestras together. It was like I did an electronic one, Chris Pitman and Dizzy Reed both did theirs then we would blend those and blend them with two real orchestras. So it's like a five hundred piece orchestra that [indecipherable as interviewer talks over him].

 

Edited by Sosso
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12 hours ago, Sosso said:

Axl: I have a lot of respect for people that do that. On Chinese Democracy most of the Orchestration on that is kind of like three electronic orchestras and two real orchestras. One's Marco Beltrami, one's Paul Buckmaster- who did a lot of Rolling Stones and Man Across the Water Elton John stuff and we blended all of those orchestras together. It was like I did an electronic one, Chris Pitman and Dizzy Reed both did theirs then we would blend those and blend them with two real orchestras. So it's like a five hundred piece orchestra that [indecipherable as interviewer talks over him].

 

There is most certainly real orchestra playing on the album. I dont know who either. I cant believe that as such a nerdy fan base that this info about who played on the album isn't common knowledge! Its also odd that they aren't credited in the booklet - at least the standard version.

I googled about the LA Philharmonic and it seems they can be ruled out. I wonder if there's some orchestras in holywood that play exclusively on albums and film scores? And maybe they dont get credited the way a publicly performing orchestra would?

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Ya know, I always figured that Beltrami and Buckmaster also conducted the orchestral performances. But the more I read today the less it sounds like they did:

 

IGN: Since we're talking about rock musicians, what was the deal with you arranging some orchestral sections for the impending Guns N Roses album?

Marco Beltrami: That was sort of just work for hire. I guess they'd heard some of my orchestral music of mine. I met with Axl and he played me these songs, asked me my ideas about them, and I told him what I thought they needed. They gave me four songs to orchestrate. A couple of them I did more than orchestrating, I actually wrote some melodies and stuff. It was a fun project. I really enjoyed it. The music was eclectic and at the time that I was doing it there were no lyrics on the songs that I was working on. People ask me about the album and I really have no idea about the release. I thought it was coming out last September. I'm the wrong person to ask about that.

IGN: He came to you with the tracks then, so you weren't ever in the studio with the musicians or anything like that

Marco Beltrami: No, they had finished tracks. On one song I actually wrote a guitar part, but they pretty much had the band tracks down and then I added orchestral stuff on top of it.

IGN: What songs were they, by chance?

Marco Beltrami: A song called "Seven," which is the one that I did the most work on, I actually did some writing on. There was one called "Thyme," one called "The General," one called "Leave Me Alone."

https://ca.ign.com/articles/2003/07/18/more-with-marco

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4 hours ago, soon said:

There is most certainly real orchestra playing on the album. I dont know who either. I cant believe that as such a nerdy fan base that this info about who played on the album isn't common knowledge! Its also odd that they aren't credited in the booklet - at least the standard version.

I googled about the LA Philharmonic and it seems they can be ruled out. I wonder if there's some orchestras in holywood that play exclusively on albums and film scores? And maybe they dont get credited the way a publicly performing orchestra would?

I'm afraid that in post-1993 GNR (and maybe to some extent even the post-AFD era) it is extremely unreliable to just go and read the booklet, thinking that everything what's in there is correct or complete.

I mean, just check SOYL single - it is in fact partly re-recorded by the NITL lineup, but there's not a single note about it in any liner notes. same about some other tracks. and I believe this is the same story about ChiDem tracks - much of the real credits is simply omitted from the booklets. just think about OMG single - Robin says his work was deleted from there, but Axl said the opposite. 

a long and very very confusing history, which I think will never be completely uncovered.

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25 minutes ago, zombux said:

I mean, just check SOYL single - it is in fact partly re-recorded by the NITL lineup, but there's not a single note about it in any liner notes. 

I keep seeing this repeated as a gospel fact by fans with absolutely no sources or evidence to back it up. 

Pretty much everyone from within the Guns has stated that it's the original version of the song when asked about it. The only semi-credible source saying it's been re-recorded is Adler, and he's spent the vast majority of his post GNR years strung out on heroin, so his recollection is hardly going to be the sharpest.

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13 minutes ago, MildlyArtistic said:

I keep seeing this repeated as a gospel fact by fans with absolutely no sources or evidence to back it up. 

Pretty much everyone from within the Guns has stated that it's the original version of the song when asked about it. The only semi-credible source saying it's been re-recorded is Adler, and he's spent the vast majority of his post GNR years strung out on heroin, so his recollection is hardly going to be the sharpest.

I tend to agree with you on all points. but still, I get different reports by people who seem to be "insiders" and who I fully trust and they always proved to be right in the long run. so I still consider all the liner notes correct on one side, with a star on the other :) 

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1 hour ago, zombux said:

I'm afraid that in post-1993 GNR (and maybe to some extent even the post-AFD era) it is extremely unreliable to just go and read the booklet, thinking that everything what's in there is correct or complete.

I mean, just check SOYL single - it is in fact partly re-recorded by the NITL lineup, but there's not a single note about it in any liner notes. same about some other tracks. and I believe this is the same story about ChiDem tracks - much of the real credits is simply omitted from the booklets. just think about OMG single - Robin says his work was deleted from there, but Axl said the opposite. 

a long and very very confusing history, which I think will never be completely uncovered.

Well said. And it is sad fr those of us who would love to know as part of being fans, or even for growth as musicians. Especially with Beltrami stating he wrote melodies. Which melodies? Vocal melodies?

You know why better that I, but I dont think Axls re-recorded vocals were credited in Live Era notes, either.

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7 minutes ago, soon said:

Well said. And it is sad fr those of us who would love to know as part of being fans, or even for growth as musicians. Especially with Beltrami stating he wrote melodies. Which melodies? Vocal melodies?

You know why better that I, but I dont think Axls re-recorded vocals were credited in Live Era notes, either.

yes, Live Era re-recordings are the same story and we can only guess (and some people tried very hard and thoroughly!) how it all actually was.

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2 hours ago, zombux said:

I'm afraid that in post-1993 GNR (and maybe to some extent even the post-AFD era) it is extremely unreliable to just go and read the booklet, thinking that everything what's in there is correct or complete.

I mean, just check SOYL single - it is in fact partly re-recorded by the NITL lineup, but there's not a single note about it in any liner notes. same about some other tracks. and I believe this is the same story about ChiDem tracks - much of the real credits is simply omitted from the booklets. just think about OMG single - Robin says his work was deleted from there, but Axl said the opposite. 

a long and very very confusing history, which I think will never be completely uncovered.

Where is your evidence? 

That's like me saying all the parts on UYI and AFD were all recorded by outside musicians.... I just made that up but who cares right. Spread it around! 

Adler can't remember the session, and doesn't seem to realize that a remixed recording can sound sonically different from a late 80s mix compared to tech from 2017.

Remember, Adler does have 25-30yrs of solid alcohol and drug abuse so it's fair to say his recollection isn't going to hold as much water as some of the other members who didn't dabble as much.

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On 09/12/2018 at 11:35 PM, soon said:

Ya know, I always figured that Beltrami and Buckmaster also conducted the orchestral performances. But the more I read today the less it sounds like they did:

 

IGN: Since we're talking about rock musicians, what was the deal with you arranging some orchestral sections for the impending Guns N Roses album?

Marco Beltrami: That was sort of just work for hire. I guess they'd heard some of my orchestral music of mine. I met with Axl and he played me these songs, asked me my ideas about them, and I told him what I thought they needed. They gave me four songs to orchestrate. A couple of them I did more than orchestrating, I actually wrote some melodies and stuff. It was a fun project. I really enjoyed it. The music was eclectic and at the time that I was doing it there were no lyrics on the songs that I was working on. People ask me about the album and I really have no idea about the release. I thought it was coming out last September. I'm the wrong person to ask about that.

IGN: He came to you with the tracks then, so you weren't ever in the studio with the musicians or anything like that

Marco Beltrami: No, they had finished tracks. On one song I actually wrote a guitar part, but they pretty much had the band tracks down and then I added orchestral stuff on top of it.

IGN: What songs were they, by chance?

Marco Beltrami: A song called "Seven," which is the one that I did the most work on, I actually did some writing on. There was one called "Thyme," one called "The General," one called "Leave Me Alone."

https://ca.ign.com/articles/2003/07/18/more-with-marco

Leave Me Alone is Soul Monster? 

What songs did Buckmaster work on?

 

 

 

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I think that Marco Beltrami was hired twice during the recording process of Chinese Democracy. 

CD 1: Street of Dreams / There Was A Time / Madagascar / Prositute 

CD 2: Thyme / The General / Seven / Leave Me Alone 

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12 hours ago, wasted said:

Leave Me Alone is Soul Monster? 

What songs did Buckmaster work on?

 

 

 

I dont know about track names.

Im not sure but I think theres the possibility that they both appear on the same tracks sometimes.

Interesting to note that Beltrami worked with Manson. Figures into the debate about how goth/industrial Axl was looking to go. Whereas Buckmaster is more of a sound track guy iirc.

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Whoever they brought in were musicians doing studio work. Could have been part of a local orchestra that rehearsed with each other, or could have been a random collection of musicians that someone brought in. Those people don’t necessarily need to be credited. It’s paid work for hire 

As far as other recordings, studio trickery has been done many times before. Live albums get touched up in the studio on a lot of releases by many artists. Uncredited studio musicians do get used from time to time to play other members work, however it’s usually done for budget reasons if the player can’t play or they can’t get a quick useable take without the budget being blown.

As far as SOYL, the only reason they’d do something like that is if the original tapes weren’t useable. I find it hard to believe they’d go to that length and re-record the foundation of an old song for a reissue campaign if that we’re the case. You’re listening to a 30 yr old tape that was meant to be a demo that has been polished up with compression, eq, and mastering in 2018

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11 hours ago, wasted said:

Beltrami worked on 4, one of which was Leave Me Alone aka Soul Monster. 

Street of Dreams - The General 

Madagascar - Seven

There was a Time - Thyme

?

it's possible, I just can't be totally sure cause as you know, even if Beltrami said he worked on 4 tunes, Axl still confirmed those were legitimate song titles after Chinese was released

Edited by Rovim
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10 hours ago, soon said:

I dont know about track names.

Im not sure but I think theres the possibility that they both appear on the same tracks sometimes.

Interesting to note that Beltrami worked with Manson. Figures into the debate about how goth/industrial Axl was looking to go. Whereas Buckmaster is more of a sound track guy iirc.

Yes, they both are on SOD, TWAT, Madagascar, Prostitute. Beltrami is on THis I Love. 

Axl was saying Buckmaster worked on Elton John Madman across the Water?

Beltrami does movie soundtracks like Terminator 3 I think. So you got Queen’s producer, Elton’s string guy and a movie soundtrack guy. Manson does have dramatic atmosperes in some of his songs. 

Beavan was Manson’s producer. I think Axl wanted that NIN and Manson sound. That’s what he mainly said he wanted to change the sound of GNR. Not everything in how GNR made a record. 

I could imagine the first Beavan recordings were like early Manson but songs like The Blues and Twat weren’t as grand. That’s why Iovine wanted to bring in the Queen producer. That’s where the money is, the Nov Rains. Around 2000 the rec comp were hoping to be saved by the big GNR record. They spent 10 mil knowing Slash wouldn’t be involved. It was that Interscope era of Eminem and Manson. Fred Durst and Kid Rock were the new Axl Rose. 

Axl might have been into those scenes of grunge and rap rock but he still had his songs and the Queen thing. In a way the 90s Alt rock was just another influence to the basically 70 rock style songwriting. That’s why people moan about Catcher, it’s obviously very close to another Illusion classic but the Alt Rock messes it up. In a weird way by the time CD came out 90s rock was sort of classic rock.

These are elements that CD is very much like AFD, UYI. The mixing pot of old and new styles with the soul of the artist still very much intact. Like on AFD you have Aerosmith and Stones stuff but there was also a lot of Thrash production going on. Clink worked with Megadeth. AFD could really compete with those 80s thrash bands. CD is like that too, you have 90s alt rock that has some 00s sound and motifs. Ron brought that 00s prog element and pomp was back in with bands like My Chemical Romance and Evanessence. CD is still very glam metal here and there. 

 

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6 hours ago, Rovim said:

it's possible, I just can't be totally sure cause as you know, even if Beltrami said he worked on 4 tunes, Axl still confirmed those were legitimate song titles after Chinese was released

My thinking is he confirmed real working titles. But he did talk about Soul Monster as if it would be on CD II. 

Considering the breadth of the recording process it’s possible he worked on This I Love, SOD, Twat, Madagascar, Prostitute at a later date. I’m not sure when he did TIL it could have been 2006. 

The General, Thyme, Seven, Leave me Alone aka Soul Monster could have been done around or before RTB. Then later he does the 5 tracks on CD after the re-record. 

CD II and Remix are done. Let’s assume finished to any normal person. Would it be too strange that there are 4 songs on CD II that have strings?

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On 09/12/2018 at 5:09 PM, MildlyArtistic said:

I keep seeing this repeated as a gospel fact by fans with absolutely no sources or evidence to back it up. 

Pretty much everyone from within the Guns has stated that it's the original version of the song when asked about it. The only semi-credible source saying it's been re-recorded is Adler, and he's spent the vast majority of his post GNR years strung out on heroin, so his recollection is hardly going to be the sharpest.

Exactly. Does anyone think that if Shadow was newly recorded that fact wouldn't be milked for all it was worth?

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15 hours ago, wasted said:

The General, Thyme, Seven, Leave me Alone aka Soul Monster could have been done around or before RTB. Then later he does the 5 tracks on CD after the re-record. 

The General was written by Brain and Bucket (so possibly Pete Scaturro was involved also), and the others were from around the same time. So that would be 2001-2004, definitely RTB era.

And there is no way that those 4 songs appear on CD under any other name. Anything that implies otherwise is wishful thinking.

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