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Michael Jackson

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a child rapist isn't "since you were born, the best father you ever had, and you love him so much".

child rapists abuse their own children (and jackson had three).

if MJ had this secret scheme to lure innocent children in his bed, then why are there so many (now adult) children who were "not" raped? Why was he involved with THEM? I don't fucking know it, I don't claim to have an explanation, but no one will deny that MJ had a really curious mind who liked to hang out with children. Most of them had a great time with him, by their own accounts. Even their parents were ok with it all (I would never let my own kid do the same, but they clearly did). 

what about mcaulay culkin, who by his own account was not raped by MJ. MJ reached out to him because he reckognised some of his own life in that of mcaulay. they probably did odd and silly stuff in his playground, but again, nothing that warrants the massive witch hunting that we see today. Is that forbidden too? Probably prevented culkin from being an even bigger wreck than he is today.

does it ever occur to the haters, that maybe, due to MJ's own abuse he suffered, that MJ was mentally ill and that explains his behaviour?

What is crystal clear, and you don't need to be a fucking rocket scientists to see this, is MJ was rich and mentally unstable, hanging out with children and thus making him an easy victim. Hell, I was 12 when the jordy case was a thing, and even then my first reaction was "some scumbag wants to get MJ's money".

So far I have not seen one single ounce of evidence of criminal offence. I have seen many evidence that MJ liked to hang out with children, but I class that as a mental oddity. artists are weird and twisted, all of them. Being weird and being an artist go hand in hand.

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a child rapist isn't "since you were born, the best father you ever had, and you love him so much".

Why not?  Ted Bundy was lovely and charming to most who weren't a victim of his.

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if MJ had this secret scheme to lure innocent children in his bed, then why are there so many (now adult) children who were "not" raped?

Rapists dont rape at each and every given oppertunity.

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does it ever occur to the haters, that maybe, due to MJ's own abuse he suffered, that MJ was mentally ill and that explains his behaviour?

As long as that explanation doesn't involve accusing him of abuse apparently.

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6 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

Why not?  Ted Bundy was lovely and charming to most who weren't a victim of his.

Rapists dont rape at each and every given oppertunity.

As long as that explanation doesn't involve accusing him of abuse apparently.

take any convicted child rapist, and you'll find that most of the time they have abused their own children / nephews. because that's what child rapists do: they rape children. that probability increases when the oppurtunity is there. child rapists have much more opportunity to abuse a child in their close circle, than an occasional visitor. but MJ didn't. that's merely an observation. I don't think that Ted Bundy makes a good comparison. He was a serial killer, not a child rapist. I don't see the comparison. I also don't see the relevance of Ted Bundy's behaviour against people that weren't his victims.

no rapists don't rape at every opportunity, but I think it's fair to ask for an explanation for his involvement with people like macaulay culkin (off the top of my head) who he reportedly never raped, but still had a big involvment with. If MJ hypothetically was a child rapists, then why did he spend so much time with macaulay culkin? he had all the opportunity in the world to have his way, but he didn't. And macaulay wasn't alone, many other children never had a problem with MJ, they only had a good time at neverland. It just doesn't make sense why he wouldn't harm them, supposing he was a child rapist and such were his motives. MJ has given explanations for his behaviour in many interviews, and they seem in line with this.

an accusation of abuse requires proof. That should really not be a problem if MJ was really a child rapist. there should be an abundance of proof. Only proof I see, is of MJ's weird obsession with underage boys and girls. But for society to take it one step further, and to claim he abused them, is just mass hysteria. If you're a reasonable, cautious person, you review the facts, you make your observations, and you make up your own mind. I have no interest in joining mass hysteria and witch hunting. Frankly, I find it all a bit trivial.

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2 hours ago, action said:

Probably prevented culkin from being an even bigger wreck than he is today.

Who says he's a wreck? Don't believe everything you read.

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1 hour ago, action said:

I have seen many evidence that MJ liked to hang out with children, but I class that as a mental oddity. artists are weird and twisted, all of them. Being weird and being an artist go hand in hand.

I don't think hanging out with children is weird. I often prefer childrens company over adults, cause sometimes I get bored with all the grown up discussion about politics etc... Sometimes I much prefer playing around with my nephew or something.

But that being said sleeping with kids is weird and especially if Michael Jackson kept pictures of naked children and enjoyed barely legal kind of porn magazines, it's just all very disturbing. I am usually the last person to judge anybody, but you gotta admit Michael Jackson's case looks pretty bad. I'm sure that he genuinely enjoyed to hang out with children and I'm sure that he didn't do anything wrong to many of them. He probably was a good father too, but the thing is, not all pedophiles molest their own children. The world isn't black and white, there's a good side in every pedophile and every murderer. Nobody is a 100% bad person and I'm sure that there was a lot of good in MJ but many things point to the direction that he had a much more disturbing side to him as well.

Like you said, MJ lived a rough life in many ways and he might have been mentally ill. But that doesn't justify molesting children. Every single pedophile is mentally ill. If someone had abused you when you were a child, I'm sure you would want justice and you would want the world to know how horrible that person was who abused you. So try to keep that in mind. 

He was a great artist nevertheless and personally I've never had a problem separating art from the artist. No matter what kind of a person MJ was in private, nothing changes the fact that he was a great artist.

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take any convicted child rapist, and you'll find that most of the time they have abused their own children / nephews. because that's what child rapists do: they rape children. that probability increases when the oppurtunity is there. child rapists have much more opportunity to abuse a child in their close circle, than an occasional visitor. but MJ didn't. that's merely an observation. I don't think that Ted Bundy makes a good comparison. He was a serial killer, not a child rapist. I don't see the comparison. I also don't see the relevance of Ted Bundy's behaviour against people that weren't his victims.

Bundy was also a rapist whose killings were sexually motivated, hence the comparison, the proposition you were putting forward was that an abuser of children will necessarily abuse his own because the option is there, which is simply untrue, in much the same way a raper of adult women doesn't necessarily rape every female he ever had an oppertunity to.

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no rapists don't rape at every opportunity, but I think it's fair to ask for an explanation for his involvement with people like macaulay culkin (off the top of my head) who he reportedly never raped, but still had a big involvment with. If MJ hypothetically was a child rapists, then why did he spend so much time with macaulay culkin? he had all the opportunity in the world to have his way, but he didn't. And macaulay wasn't alone, many other children never had a problem with MJ, they only had a good time at neverland. It just doesn't make sense why he wouldn't harm them, supposing he was a child rapist and such were his motives. MJ has given explanations for his behaviour in many interviews, and they seem in line with this.

Perhaps he didn't fancy McCauley, perhaps he did rape him and he's lying, or perhaps he just didn't rape him, who knows.

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an accusation of abuse requires proof. That should really not be a problem if MJ was really a child rapist. there should be an abundance of proof. Only proof I see, is of MJ's weird obsession with underage boys and girls. But for society to take it one step further, and to claim he abused them, is just mass hysteria. If you're a reasonable, cautious person, you review the facts, you make your observations, and you make up your own mind. I have no interest in joining mass hysteria and witch hunting. Frankly, I find it all a bit trivial.

I agree completely. 

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I see a lots of "most rapists do X, but not all" and "ok so MJ was a good father, didn't rape his own children, but..."

a lot of "if's" and "but's".

MJ made many, many children happy. He gave a lot of money to child foundations, he genuinly cared for children with fire burns and so on.

yes he did, he didn't, but.. but ... that's a lot of positives and contra-indications for an alleged child molester. I'm sorry, I don't buy it. 

I'll probably piss off a lot of people. but here is the thing: he made incredible music, he did a hell of a lot for children in need (when was the last time you or me did something like that?) and I'm just not casually inclined to believe every outrageous story about him. 

I think we can conclude with the observation that MJ had a very unusual interest in underage boys and girls, and you can accept that or criticise that, but that there has never been hard proof of anything else.

 

 

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MJ made many, many children happy. He gave a lot of money to child foundations, he genuinly cared for children with fire burns and so on.

Jimmy Saville raised millions for charity.

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I'll probably piss off a lot of people. but here is the thing: he made incredible music, he did a hell of a lot for children in need (when was the last time you or me did something like that?)

Is a human beings value raised somehow by making good music, does it have any bearing on their sense of ethics/principles, morality?

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I think we can conclude with the observation that MJ had a very unusual interest in underage boys and girls, and you can accept that or criticise that, but that there has never been hard proof of anything else.

Coupled with the numerous accusations it seems as good a reason as any for extensive investigation.

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3 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

Jimmy Saville raised millions for charity.

Is a human beings value raised somehow by making good music, does it have any bearing on their sense of ethics/principles, morality?

Coupled with the numerous accusations it seems as good a reason as any for extensive investigation.

he did, but there is proof he was a rapist.

no, but it explains why I even more cautious than I would usually be (yes, i'm hypocrythical). so sue me :P

accusations mean jack shit. 25 years ago, I was invited by MJ in person (I met him on the corner just outside of his ranch), and I had a very good time in his private theme park. I even got a T-shirt, and he never layed a finger on me. 

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he did, but there is proof he was a rapist.

A lot of it seemed pretty thin, given the time thats passed.

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accusations mean jack shit. 25 years ago, I was invited by MJ in person (I met him on the corner just outside of his ranch), and I had a very good time in his private theme park. I even got a T-shirt, and he never layed a finger on me. 

The question is did he lay a finger IN you? :lol:  He had T shirts, what did it have on it? :lol:

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27 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

A lot of it seemed pretty thin, given the time thats passed.

The question is did he lay a finger IN you? :lol:  He had T shirts, what did it have on it? :lol:

"sorry I'm late. Michael gave me a drink, and now my butt hurts"

:( 

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16 minutes ago, action said:

"sorry I'm late. Michael gave me a drink, and now my butt hurts"

:( 

To be fair if I was a kid and Jacko offered me that chance I would've jumped at it.  I was a little terror at 11/12 though, he woulda probably slung me out after a bit :lol:

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Is there a sizable number of children who entered Neverland who state now that nothing untoward happened, and I don't mean ''celebrity'' kids like Culkin? The allegations now emanate from four individuals, correct? Jordan Chandler, Arvizo and the two in this documentary, Wade Robson and James Safechuck? Quantifiably how large a proportion is that, of the many who must have visited Neverland.

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29 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Is there a sizable number of children who entered Neverland who state now that nothing untoward happened, and I don't mean ''celebrity'' kids like Culkin? The allegations now emanate from four individuals, correct? Jordan Chandler, Arvizo and the two in this documentary, Wade Robson and James Safechuck? Quantifiably how large a proportion is that, of the many who must have visited Neverland.

guess there were kids there all the time. wasnt the door 'always open', so to speak? kind of like the playboy mansion, in a weird way

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1 hour ago, RussTCB said:

thanks russ. it's good to maintain a bit of balance against the hyperbole.

for a moment there I thought having porn magazines and action figures in your house means you're a child molester. Guess that goes for 80 % of the male population between 20 and 35

The only thing I wanna know now, is where do I get that awesome lara croft statue. would fit nicely in my man cave

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Those two guys who swore under oath that Michael never molested them are lying for sure now. It's all about the money.

Michael was a child at heart and I don't believe he would ever harm or do anything sexual with a child. I hope their lies get exposed and the Jackson can stop this shit.

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No kiddie porn was found at Neverland, that's bullshit. If that had been the case he would have directly gone to jail since that's a crime in itself.

BTW, Off the Wall is a fucking excellent album, a hundred times more consistent than Thriller. A pop masterpiece.

Edited by North Korean Democracy
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17 hours ago, North Korean Democracy said:

No kiddie porn was found at Neverland, that's bullshit. If that had been the case he would have directly gone to jail since that's a crime in itself.

BTW, Off the Wall is a fucking excellent album, a hundred times more consistent than Thriller. A pop masterpiece.

Personally, I like his post-Thriller works the most but I completely understand that I am in the minority on that. Having said that, I totally agree that Off The Wall is superior to Thriller in just about every way.

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Without any real evidence we will probably never know what really happened. The fact that the guy was so incredibly eccentric doesn't make it easier to know what to believe. I like to think he was still a kid at heart and only had good intentions and therefore surrounded himself with children because they were his equals, but then you have someone like Corey Feldman who has always defended him and said MJ never touched him in an inappropriate way, but that he did show him nude pictures when he was a kid. Was that just extreme naivety and poor judgement on MJ's part? It's a tough one. That MJ episode on South Park is probably pretty spot on.

Edited by EvanG

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