If Slash quit GNR again would the brand survive?

[Tom-Ass]

On 12/31/2018 at 10:31 AM, Tom2112 said:

Ok, put in Myles and the conspirators then and call it GNR THEN we'll see how big the venues are, and how people actually care enough to go and check it out. 

Slash was a highlight for many, but it was the combination of Slash AND Axl that people had been waiting 23yrs for. 

I also like to point out that there are lots of people who don't use social media, as well as lots of live reviews that said things along the lines of "I love Slash, and he's a iconic guitar player, but we came for songs! Not 20 minute blues indulgences" that's also my opinion, he actually made the shows drag in places and It was Axl who had to come back out on stage who got the crowd interested again. People put up with guitar Solos, they prefer to sing along.

Sorry dude but I wasn't insinuating that they would sell out Stadiums without Axl. My point was simply that the vast majority consider Slash the highlight of the show.  I was just sharing my experience of peoples reactions of the 3 shows I went too. Not just online and on social media but I went to these shows with large groups of friends, I think their were 13 of us hanging at one of them. 99% of the feedback I read and or received from friends, acquaintances and even people I work with was about how bad ass Slash was.  Praising him for being the only one on stage the whole show.. Or Being the only one that wasn't changing his clothes throughout the show. A couple that were only there to see Slash (100% truth).  Females commenting on how sexy they think Slash was.  Not everyone enjoys the same things and I am sure there are people out there that get bored during solos. You are obviously do so there is living proof right there.  But other than you, your friends or people you saw at shows, I really don't hear much negative about Slash's performance. You are also the only one I frequently hear complain about "Slash's Bends".  I believe the show you went to was a festival where you saw people bored. I 100% believe that you would run into more people at a festival that my get bored during Slash's solo spots and go grab a beer because they aren't exclusively there to see Guns N' Roses. There is probably a pretty good portion of people that are there to see other bands on the bill and aren't even Guns fans.  At an actual Guns show you don't see a ton of that.  At the shows I attended I certainly didn't see any mad dash for the bathrooms when Slash was soloing.  Never personally heard or saw one negative (outside of here) about Slash myself.  I definitely can't say that about everyone on the stage. 

 

 

[Tom2112]

30 minutes ago, Tom-Ass said:

Sorry dude but I wasn't insinuating that they would sell out Stadiums without Axl. My point was simply that the vast majority consider Slash the highlight of the show.  I was just sharing my experience of peoples reactions of the 3 shows I went too. Not just online and on social media but I went to these shows with large groups of friends, I think their were 13 of us hanging at one of them. 99% of the feedback I read and or received from friends, acquaintances and even people I work with was about how bad ass Slash was.  Praising him for being the only one on stage the whole show.. Or Being the only one that wasn't changing his clothes throughout the show. A couple that were only there to see Slash (100% truth).  Females commenting on how sexy they think Slash was.  Not everyone enjoys the same things and I am sure there are people out there that get bored during solos. You are obviously do so there is living proof right there.  But other than you, your friends or people you saw at shows, I really don't hear much negative about Slash's performance. You are also the only one I frequently hear complain about "Slash's Bends".  I believe the show you went to was a festival where you saw people bored. I 100% believe that you would run into more people at a festival that my get bored during Slash's solo spots and go grab a beer because they aren't exclusively there to see Guns N' Roses. There is probably a pretty good portion of people that are there to see other bands on the bill and aren't even Guns fans.  At an actual Guns show you don't see a ton of that.  At the shows I attended I certainly didn't see any mad dash for the bathrooms when Slash was soloing.  Never personally heard or saw one negative (outside of here) about Slash myself.  I definitely can't say that about everyone on the stage. 

 

 

Nope, I've never seen them at a festival. All guns only shows.

As for the bends, take a video clip of some (not all) of the NV or KOHD performances to a good guitar instructor, or even a good musician (not just your friend who plays some guitar) I guarantee they will tell you his bending accuracy is off. I'm not saying he's bending in tune, but I just don't like it. I'm saying his bending is out of tune... I have been playing guitar for  the guts of 20yrs and I have listened and played most of his solos at this point... It's not something I'm just pulling out from thin air.

As for the other point, I agree Slash is a big plus for most people... But it is the Slash and Axl show... I don't particularly care what order you put them in. Why do we need to diminish one over the other?

And yeah I agree there's people that are going just for Slash... I wouldn't dispute that. I think you can agree that those people are a little biased all the same. Doubtful they were attending new guns shows. Reason being they don't like Axl, for all the shit he pulled through the majority of his career and took for gospel all the things they read and heard. 

I will start again that I loved seeing Slash, it was fantastic, he's probably my favourite guitar player or at least very high on my list.... but my preference for a live show was the previous line up.

[Draguns]

19 minutes ago, Tom2112 said:

Nope, I've never seen them at a festival. All guns only shows.

As for the bends, take a video clip of some (not all) of the NV or KOHD performances to a good guitar instructor, or even a good musician (not just your friend who plays some guitar) I guarantee they will tell you his bending accuracy is off. I'm not saying he's bending in tune, but I just don't like it. I'm saying his bending is out of tune... I have been playing guitar for  the guts of 20yrs and I have listened and played most of his solos at this point... It's not something I'm just pulling out from thin air.

As for the other point, I agree Slash is a big plus for most people... But it is the Slash and Axl show... I don't particularly care what order you put them in. Why do we need to diminish one over the other?

And yeah I agree there's people that are going just for Slash... I wouldn't dispute that. I think you can agree that those people are a little biased all the same. Doubtful they were attending new guns shows. Reason being they don't like Axl, for all the shit he pulled through the majority of his career and took for gospel all the things they read and heard. 

I will start again that I loved seeing Slash, it was fantastic, he's probably my favourite guitar player or at least very high on my list.... but my preference for a live show was the previous line up.

The previous lineup was not good live. I saw the 2006 show at Hammerstein and 2011 Izod. I was only there to see Axl. The rest of the band was just not good tbh. I think Fortus has been a better guitarist as a result of having Slash there. I do agree with you that this is the Axl and Slash show. 

[avahland]

27 minutes ago, Tom2112 said:

.... but my preference for a live show was the previous line up.

Already felt a bit lonely but definately +1

[Gordon Comstock]

18 hours ago, Bitchisback said:

The show I saw in 2016 in New York they played 22 songs not including solos.  The show they played in 2017 they played 27 songs without solos and it was amazing.

 

Different strokes for different folks but I enjoy GnR and I want them to play as much as possible.

I totally get that, but when I saw them in 2017 the 'extra songs' were Black Hole Sun, I Feel Good and Wichita Lineman. They played both Don't Cry and Patience instead of just one, which is cool I guess, but honestly I don't care much for this line-ups version of Don't Cry so that wasn't a big deal. I preferred the 2016 shows, setlist-wise. Less covers, more cohesive show, more in your face GNR songs (like OTGM or My Michelle).

[Tom2112]

2 hours ago, Draguns said:

The previous lineup was not good live. I saw the 2006 show at Hammerstein and 2011 Izod. I was only there to see Axl. The rest of the band was just not good tbh. I think Fortus has been a better guitarist as a result of having Slash there. I do agree with you that this is the Axl and Slash show. 

My honest opinion is that both line ups are good live, not great. Both shows suffered from being too long (2006 Dublin, being the exception clocking in at 2hrs or so). I prefer being left wanting more.

I just think the previous line up had more power, I liked the 3 guitar arrangements. Yep I know old guns didn't do it live, but it was on the studio and it sounded great live. 

I almost guarantee that if Slash was thrown into DJs spot in the 2009 line up your opinion would be completely different.

Edited January 1, 2019 by Tom2112

[GnR Chris]

On 12/30/2018 at 6:51 AM, Propaganda said:

I believe it was DJ who brought that sponsor to Guns btw...

He brought this charismatic Chinese Democracy start:

 

He brought his clothing line to the play and Axl even copied it and started wearing jeans like his.

 

Not to mention that Axl finally felt comfortable to release a live dvd with him in the band. He was the missing key. Axl saw the potential in him, which is why he wanted to bring him to the mix in the reunion gig.

As for his talent as a guitar player. He's certainly a better songwriter than Bumblefoot. He even wrote songs for Motley Crue, so that is enough to prove my point. He's in a successful band, which Bumblefoot is not. To me he's much better doing solos. It's a shame his contributions weren't on Chinese Democracy, for obvious reasons, because I think his input would have done much more creatively than what Bumblefoot's did.

I think it's fair to say that a lot of people didn't like Bumblefoot's contributions on Chinese Democracy, namely his guitar parts.

If you look at the shows solo spots, he even contributed more to that than Bumblefoot. So to me his input on GNR was of much more value.

Not to say that Bumblefoot isn't talented. I'm not a big fan of his solo work but the dude obviously has talent. He's also a very nice guy, and has been a very nice guy to the fans. But so is DJ. I have interacted with both and DJ and was quite nice too.

 

@RussTCB When you quoted me I still hadn't edited my post. Sorry about that. 

DJ's image fit GNR, and he was fan-friendly, but his ability as a lead guitarist was lacking. I've never heard an Ashba-penned song I enjoyed. I'm glad he didn't mar Chinese Democracy and that he is no longer in the band. Onward and upward.

[GnR Chris]

On 12/31/2018 at 8:05 AM, Tom-Ass said:

Not according to almost everyone I talked to after the shows around here and I know quite a few people that went. That can also be said for all the people I know posting on social media during and after the shows. Not to mention the majority of the people here. Slash is absolutely the highlight of the tour. There really is no case that can be made for anyone else on that stage. 

I saw Slash several times prior to seeing him in the current GNR lineup. Man ALIVE did he blow me away AGAIN during the NITL gigs. There is something awe-inspiring about his playing. His tone and the way he bends the notes. There's so much charisma and feel to his sound. I can't really explain it in musical terms because I'm not a musician. But as a HUGE Axl Rose fan, I gotta say for me, I enjoyed Slash during this tour JUST as much. He is one of the last of the guitar heroes, man. 'Cause mainstream music doesn't make stars out of guitarists anymore (since there no guitars in songs anymore, haha).

Previous GNR lineup was very good live. No complaints. Hearing Duff on backing vocals blows away Bumble and Pittman (yuck). Stinson was great though. I didn't like anything Ashba touched. Melissa does a good job of thickening the sound of the band in lieu of a third guitarist. No issues there either.

Edited January 1, 2019 by GnR Chris

[Tom-Ass]

4 hours ago, Draguns said:

The previous lineup was not good live. I saw the 2006 show at Hammerstein and 2011 Izod. I was only there to see Axl. The rest of the band was just not good tbh. I think Fortus has been a better guitarist as a result of having Slash there. I do agree with you that this is the Axl and Slash show. 

That was my experience in 2002 and I was at a show that NuGuns fans rave about.  Axl was great.. The rest if the band, not so much. 

[Tom-Ass]

3 hours ago, Gordon Comstock said:

 They played both Don't Cry and Patience instead of just one, which is cool I guess, but honestly I don't care much for this line-ups version of Don't Cry so that wasn't a big deal.

I thought I was the only one who doesn't care for this lineups version of Don't Cry.. That was one of the songs I was looking forward to seeing the most too.

[Draguns]

2 hours ago, Tom-Ass said:

That was my experience in 2002 and I was at a show that NuGuns fans rave about.  Axl was great.. The rest if the band, not so much. 

Axl was really the only reason to go back then. The other people in the lineup didn't really intrigue me. I don't think I'll ever forget seeing how half empty Izod Center looked that night. It shouldn't have been the case since GNR was popular in the NJ/NYC area back then as well as now. 

 

[gnfnrs1972]

2 hours ago, Draguns said:

Axl was really the only reason to go back then. The other people in the lineup didn't really intrigue me. I don't think I'll ever forget seeing how half empty Izod Center looked that night. It shouldn't have been the case since GNR was popular in the NJ/NYC area back then as well as now. 

 

I dont go to many concerts but in 2011 I saw GNR at Nashville, barely half sold out. Nosebleeds curtained off. Is this normal for concerts? Bon Jovi without Sambora sold out even behind the stage at this venue.

[RussTCB]

Personally, I couldn't care less how many people are at a show as long as I'm enjoying myself. 

[F*ck Fear]

11 hours ago, Draguns said:

The previous lineup was not good live. I saw the 2006 show at Hammerstein and 2011 Izod. I was only there to see Axl. The rest of the band was just not good tbh. I think Fortus has been a better guitarist as a result of having Slash there. I do agree with you that this is the Axl and Slash show. 

That's your opinion. Just like how I enjoyed the 2002, 2006 and 2010 shows more than anything in 2017 & 2018.

[Free Bird]

On 29.12.2018 at 3:35 AM, RONIN said:

Agreed. Slash has wanted back into GnR for years. I wouldn't be surprised if his current deal is even worse than the one Axl gave him in 1995. There were actually rumors about that back when the reunion was first announced iirc.

Is it a fact that Slash wanted back into the band for years? I don't say you made this up but it's more of a rumor. Other rumors say Axl wanted him back in 2003 for some songs. I call that all bullshit.

Slash himself said he has no contract that makes him a hired hand. And that's not a rumor.

[Sydney Fan]

6 hours ago, Free Bird said:

Is it a fact that Slash wanted back into the band for years? I don't say you made this up but it's more of a rumor. Other rumors say Axl wanted him back in 2003 for some songs. I call that all bullshit.

Slash himself said he has no contract that makes him a hired hand. And that's not a rumor.

Makes me wonder if slash accepted axls contract as being a hired hand, but still kept some ownership as im sure he still does now as part of the partnership of the old band around 96 what would have eventuated in terms of gnr music.

Edited January 2, 2019 by Sydney Fan

[PatrickS77]

6 hours ago, Free Bird said:

Slash himself said he has no contract that makes him a hired hand. And that's not a rumor.

If he doesn't have a contract, how does that make him a hired hand? He's not hired if he doesn't have a contract. Or have you deliberately ommitted the comma or dot and mean just that?

[Draguns]

19 hours ago, F*ck Fear said:

That's your opinion. Just like how I enjoyed the 2002, 2006 and 2010 shows more than anything in 2017 & 2018.

It is your opinion. Mine is that the lineup wasn't good enough. With Slash and Duff back in GNR, it's a million times better!!

[Draguns]

9 hours ago, Sydney Fan said:

Makes me wonder if slash accepted axls contract as being a hired hand, but still kept some ownership as im sure he still does now as part of the partnership of the old band around 96 what would have eventuated in terms of gnr music.

You can't be a hired hand and still have ownership. It's one or the other.

It's pretty obvious that this is a partnership between Axl, Slash, and Duff again. 

[Gordon Comstock]

16 minutes ago, Draguns said:

You can't be a hired hand and still have ownership. It's one or the other.

In the case of GNR, I don't think that's really true? GNR has existed as multiple entities since the 90's; there's the 'business partnership', meaning the back-catalogue and merch with the '86-93 logo's, which is Axl, Slash and Duff. That's why Axl and Slash needed each-other to sign off on their respective live releases pre-2015. And then there's the 'band' that legally belongs to Axl. I guess we don't actually know if Axl still completely owns the band name, but it's a safe assumption that he does. So Slash (and Duff) could technically have been hired to be in Axl's band, while still having ownership of the majority of the catalogue.

Edited January 3, 2019 by Gordon Comstock

[Gordon Comstock]

On 1/1/2019 at 3:18 PM, Tom-Ass said:

I thought I was the only one who doesn't care for this lineups version of Don't Cry.. That was one of the songs I was looking forward to seeing the most too.

I was looking forward to that song too, I usually enjoyed it in the 2010-14 era but there's just something 'off' about the NITL versions, it's just 'mediocre' instead of the highlight it should be.

[RONIN]

16 hours ago, Free Bird said:

Is it a fact that Slash wanted back into the band for years? I don't say you made this up but it's more of a rumor. Other rumors say Axl wanted him back in 2003 for some songs. I call that all bullshit.

In GnR land there are no facts mate, only speculation. But iirc Slash's interviews post-Aint life Grand seemed to be angling towards a reconciliation. There's also the 2006 incident when he showed up at Axl's door and "allegedly" badmouthed his VR bandmates.

Quote

 

Slash himself said he has no contract that makes him a hired hand. And that's not a rumor.

 

Agreed. Marc Canter also said in one of his final posts here that the partnership has been reactivated. What strikes me as bizarre is if the three of them are equal partners again, how is Team Brazil running the show still? Surely a multi-million dollar mega brand like GnR wouldn't be run by rank amateurs with Duff and Slash back in the picture?

And then there's this rumor from around the time of the reunion (make of it what you will):

Guns N’ Roses insider MSL have shared new rumors on GNRTruth regarding Slash’s negotiations to rejoin Guns N’ Roses.

“Slash is returning under worse terms than the ones he rejected in 1995.”

He later posted in another thread in response to another user, “You and I may realize that most musicians are primarily motivated by finance, but that reality ruins the fantasy for many fans, which is why the industry as a whole goes to great lengths to protect the images of the artists so it’s not rubbed in fans’ faces that 99% of artists’ decisions are primarily motivated by finance. Nobody gains anything from fans realizing that reality and as we can see even on this site where we have a more educated and informed fanbase, people still prefer to buy into the fantasy that a band is a group of friends acting as equal teammates to conquer the world.

What makes this particular situation a bit different is that Axl has always been that 1% that was willing to leave millions on the table to do what he felt was ‘right.’ That is very rare in this business. So why this is happening now . . . and not earlier . . . is more complicated than just the money. Resolving the sync rights dispute that had dragged on forever was a huge part of things thawing. Even though the intention at the time wasn’t to work together, even just agreeing to not interfere with each other was a huge step. The removal of Perla was huge as well as she was the “brains” behind so many of the sabotage attempts and I think it allowed for some of the hurt feelings to dissipate with her out of the picture. Then of course . . . Axl needed a guitarist! Duff was already back either way. With the lead guitar spot open and the ‘feud’ with Slash already resolved, at that point what obstacle was there really to at least trying to make this happen?

Friends to some extent? Maybe. But either way, for this to work, they just have to be able to tolerate each other. We’ll see how long it lasts. Maybe 25 more shows. Maybe 250 shows. Too early to tell. Many bands have tried to fake it out on stage. Not uncommon. No way for us to really know. But I will say that I’ve been told Slash already pulled some shady stuff before the ink was dry and this thing almost collapsed. What saved it? More money of course. How would Axl feel about that? I’m not sure, but I think they’re too scared to tell him. Either way, the ink is dry now and if Slash was able to squeeze out a few more dollars, I’m not knocking his hustle. All the way around, for this thing to happen, everyone had to compromise.”

https://www.alternativenation.net/slash-guns-n-roses-contract-last-minute-demands/

[Sydney Fan]

3 hours ago, RONIN said:

In GnR land there are no facts mate, only speculation. But iirc Slash's interviews post-Aint life Grand seemed to be angling towards a reconciliation. There's also the 2006 incident when he showed up at Axl's door and "allegedly" badmouthed his VR bandmates.

Agreed. Marc Canter also said in one of his final posts here that the partnership has been reactivated. What strikes me as bizarre is if the three of them are equal partners again, how is Team Brazil running the show still? Surely a multi-million dollar mega brand like GnR wouldn't be run by rank amateurs with Duff and Slash back in the picture?

And then there's this rumor from around the time of the reunion (make of it what you will):

Guns N’ Roses insider MSL have shared new rumors on GNRTruth regarding Slash’s negotiations to rejoin Guns N’ Roses.

“Slash is returning under worse terms than the ones he rejected in 1995.”

He later posted in another thread in response to another user, “You and I may realize that most musicians are primarily motivated by finance, but that reality ruins the fantasy for many fans, which is why the industry as a whole goes to great lengths to protect the images of the artists so it’s not rubbed in fans’ faces that 99% of artists’ decisions are primarily motivated by finance. Nobody gains anything from fans realizing that reality and as we can see even on this site where we have a more educated and informed fanbase, people still prefer to buy into the fantasy that a band is a group of friends acting as equal teammates to conquer the world.

What makes this particular situation a bit different is that Axl has always been that 1% that was willing to leave millions on the table to do what he felt was ‘right.’ That is very rare in this business. So why this is happening now . . . and not earlier . . . is more complicated than just the money. Resolving the sync rights dispute that had dragged on forever was a huge part of things thawing. Even though the intention at the time wasn’t to work together, even just agreeing to not interfere with each other was a huge step. The removal of Perla was huge as well as she was the “brains” behind so many of the sabotage attempts and I think it allowed for some of the hurt feelings to dissipate with her out of the picture. Then of course . . . Axl needed a guitarist! Duff was already back either way. With the lead guitar spot open and the ‘feud’ with Slash already resolved, at that point what obstacle was there really to at least trying to make this happen?

Friends to some extent? Maybe. But either way, for this to work, they just have to be able to tolerate each other. We’ll see how long it lasts. Maybe 25 more shows. Maybe 250 shows. Too early to tell. Many bands have tried to fake it out on stage. Not uncommon. No way for us to really know. But I will say that I’ve been told Slash already pulled some shady stuff before the ink was dry and this thing almost collapsed. What saved it? More money of course. How would Axl feel about that? I’m not sure, but I think they’re too scared to tell him. Either way, the ink is dry now and if Slash was able to squeeze out a few more dollars, I’m not knocking his hustle. All the way around, for this thing to happen, everyone had to compromise.”

https://www.alternativenation.net/slash-guns-n-roses-contract-last-minute-demands/

Wonder if slash upped more money because his divorce proceedings were in full swing and wanted to make a few more dollars up front as soon as possible. Dont blame him. I love slash but he should have just compromised amd potentially not fucked things up for us fans benefit. 

Regarding tb managing tge whole band wi tyh the amount of money involved, im sure duff and slash have gone in with both eyes open and taking things as they come. Would habe been interesting times if azoff would have been managing this lineup.

Edited January 3, 2019 by Sydney Fan

[Free Bird]

3 hours ago, RONIN said:

In GnR land there are no facts mate, only speculation. But iirc Slash's interviews post-Aint life Grand seemed to be angling towards a reconciliation. There's also the 2006 incident when he showed up at Axl's door and "allegedly" badmouthed his VR bandmates.

Agreed. Marc Canter also said in one of his final posts here that the partnership has been reactivated. What strikes me as bizarre is if the three of them are equal partners again, how is Team Brazil running the show still? Surely a multi-million dollar mega brand like GnR wouldn't be run by rank amateurs with Duff and Slash back in the picture?

And then there's this rumor from around the time of the reunion (make of it what you will):

Guns N’ Roses insider MSL have shared new rumors on GNRTruth regarding Slash’s negotiations to rejoin Guns N’ Roses.

“Slash is returning under worse terms than the ones he rejected in 1995.”

He later posted in another thread in response to another user, “You and I may realize that most musicians are primarily motivated by finance, but that reality ruins the fantasy for many fans, which is why the industry as a whole goes to great lengths to protect the images of the artists so it’s not rubbed in fans’ faces that 99% of artists’ decisions are primarily motivated by finance. Nobody gains anything from fans realizing that reality and as we can see even on this site where we have a more educated and informed fanbase, people still prefer to buy into the fantasy that a band is a group of friends acting as equal teammates to conquer the world.

What makes this particular situation a bit different is that Axl has always been that 1% that was willing to leave millions on the table to do what he felt was ‘right.’ That is very rare in this business. So why this is happening now . . . and not earlier . . . is more complicated than just the money. Resolving the sync rights dispute that had dragged on forever was a huge part of things thawing. Even though the intention at the time wasn’t to work together, even just agreeing to not interfere with each other was a huge step. The removal of Perla was huge as well as she was the “brains” behind so many of the sabotage attempts and I think it allowed for some of the hurt feelings to dissipate with her out of the picture. Then of course . . . Axl needed a guitarist! Duff was already back either way. With the lead guitar spot open and the ‘feud’ with Slash already resolved, at that point what obstacle was there really to at least trying to make this happen?

Friends to some extent? Maybe. But either way, for this to work, they just have to be able to tolerate each other. We’ll see how long it lasts. Maybe 25 more shows. Maybe 250 shows. Too early to tell. Many bands have tried to fake it out on stage. Not uncommon. No way for us to really know. But I will say that I’ve been told Slash already pulled some shady stuff before the ink was dry and this thing almost collapsed. What saved it? More money of course. How would Axl feel about that? I’m not sure, but I think they’re too scared to tell him. Either way, the ink is dry now and if Slash was able to squeeze out a few more dollars, I’m not knocking his hustle. All the way around, for this thing to happen, everyone had to compromise.”

https://www.alternativenation.net/slash-guns-n-roses-contract-last-minute-demands/

Yeah dude, that's exactly what I mean. There are very few facts and a lot of rumors but I'm very careful in taking them seriously, especially when their source is MSL or alternativenations.

[Free Bird]

13 hours ago, PatrickS77 said:

If he doesn't have a contract, how does that make him a hired hand? He's not hired if he doesn't have a contract. Or have you deliberately ommitted the comma or dot and mean just that?

No contract = no hired hand