Vintage: Doug Goldstein's hilarious letter to Axl ~2009

[Sydney Fan]

Im sure there are interviews with axl where the reason why he owned the name was incase the other band members died and didnt want the name to be challanged by ex wives or girlfriends. I think this was around 89/90 when the band were in their drug haze.

[DurhamGirl]

On 1/13/2019 at 6:32 AM, SoulMonster said:

The notion that Axl was controlled under Niven and uncontrollable under Goldstein, is a bit imprecise. Axl was quite a problem to the band throughout both periods, but seems to have gradually become worse. The way I see it, there is no clear demarcation where he went from being a highly functional band member (not that he ever really was) to being a mess. It swung back and forth, but it seems the band of brothers mentality in the 80s and the fact that Axl hadn't become the de facto leader of the band, helped to control things. And possibly Niven's no-nonsense attitude. Axl simply couldn't get away with stuff the same way as he did in the 90s, or didn't even try. With the lineup disintegrating (Steven and Izzy gone), with Axl more estranged from his band mates and having his own entourage of followers, his ego and issues were more unchecked or in some ways stimulated. So Niven and Goldstein had somewhat different challenges at hand, although Axl always presented a problem to the managers of the band.

There is also not a fixed date when Goldstein replaced Niven; Goldstein was there throughput Niven's period (more or less), and they were both co-managers for a period, before Niven was sacked. I find it pure speculative to argue that Niven would have done better if he was in charge post-1991, or that Goldstein would have done worse if he was solely in charge pre-1991. It is just conjecture. It can all be explained by the dynamics of the band changing and by Axl's swinging mental issues.

In late 1989 and early 1991, when Axl really was off the hinges due to pressure with finishing the follow-up records, Niven didn't cut it. He simply wasn't able to manage Axl efficiently. As a Geffen representative said, "Axl's got everybody by the balls" and in the words of Clearmountain (who tried mixing the records), "[Axl] would threaten to quit every three weeks". Axl refused to finish his work on the records if Niven wasn't fired. So ultimately, the presence of Niven helped to delay the release of the 'Use Your Illusion' records. It was obvious that whatever Niven had to give was not good enough at the time. His managerial approach didn't cut it anymore...unfortunately, I guess.

In my opinion, what happened is mostly a result of a band disintegrating, addictions out of control and a frontman with serious mental issues, and there was little any manager could do to fix these issues. It seems, in Axl's case, it almost had to burn out before he reached a more mellow state of mind again with Team Brazil after having gone through plenty of managers again during the CD era. Arguing that Niven was the hero here and that Goldstein was the villain, or vice versa, is in my opinion giving way too much credit to both of them. I am sure they did what they could with the means at hand, with different strategies adapted to shifting circumstance, but in the end the tide couldn't be turned. And it if obviously now in hindsight that they are both flawed people.

Excellent analysis.

[rumandraisin]

He was right about Azoff though

[jamillos]

I would love to have read any Axl's reply, if there was any... 

[HollyWoodRose84]

It’s beyond crazy that this guy was THE manger for Guns and Axl for all those years. Imagine if this band actually  proper, long term management like The Stones or Aerosmith? 

[HollyWoodRose84]

8 hours ago, rumandraisin said:

He was right about Azoff though

But honestly, a reunion did take place, which was Azoff’s long term goal. 

[SilverMachine]

Goldstein's track record with seminal bands isn't great.

The Stone Roses - the epitome of a "last gang in town group", imploded while under his wing.

[DurhamGirl]

Interesting I did not know he was involved with Stone Roses, a great band that eventually fell apart.

[Nice Boy]

I was always amazed (in retrospect) how GnR managed to gain such a secure foothold and presence in the U.K., and I think a lot of it was down to how clever Alan Niven was in manipulating the British press and rock scene. He deserves credit for that.

I don't think Goldstein became an Axl "yes man" simply for his own financial gain (although he did gain) - I think he simply saw that the only way to appease Axl and keep the band together was to become that Yes man. Ultimately though it was a mistake to effectively let Axl believe he could do anything he wanted. That's why Slash and Duff disliked him. 

Didn't one of the managers allegedly get a bit too close to one of Axl's wives?

[Euchre]

Niven helped 2 bands with difficult personnel break out simultaneously in Great White and GNR. That is pretty impressive. I think he was a great manager and the thing that hurt him in the end was he could be a bit insensitive at times - but at the same time that was needed to a degree.

Goldstein was a great tour manager but terrible band manager and being all about appeasement and not making the tough, right decisions things very quickly nosedived.

 

I’ve said it before but it is always underestimated what the personnel changes in basically that 1 year period starting mid-1990 had on the band.

 

Adler, Niven, Izzy out - the 3 voices most prepared to stand up to Axl.

Keyboard player bought in by Axl against the will of the others - so u know who he is going to support.

Grovelling manager brought in obsessed with appeasing Axl.

So suddenly the whole balance shifts and you end up with the band effectively in hands of one person with let’s be frank, mental issues - and things grind to a halt.

If the balance was this way in ‘86 we wouldn’t have even heard of GNR.

Remember as well UYI was majority written at this point, so since the shift mentioned above there hasn’t been much creative output to show for 30 years - one original album.

 

[Blackstar]

9 hours ago, SilverMachine said:

Goldstein's track record with seminal bands isn't great.

The Stone Roses - the epitome of a "last gang in town group", imploded while under his wing.

Goldstein never managed the Stone Roses. There were only discussions and negotiations.

[rumandraisin]

What order do the managers go in? 

Doug until 2001

Merck 2002 till 2006?

Azoff 2008 till 2009?

Doc something 2010 till 2011

Team Brazil 2011 onwards

[Tadsy]

I think the big takeaway from this thread is this, how anyone could take any of these people at their word is impossible. Good luck trying to figure out the truth amongst a mentally ill frontman, drug addicts and/or alcoholic band mates, greedy, lying manipulative individuals (managers) and people who call themselves family by sliding into the lead singers life. 

I love the band they were (on stage) in their heyday! But let’s get one thing straight! Every single person involved in this band can be call out for being shady. They all have their own versions of the truth, which is fine. But let’s not forget that if they were up in the dock under cross examination, they’d all be torn to shreds 🤣

 

every last one of them! 

[jamillos]

5 minutes ago, Tadsy said:

I think the big takeaway from this thread is this, how anyone could take any of these people at their word is impossible. Good luck trying to figure out the truth amongst a mentally ill frontman, drug addicts and/or alcoholic band mates, greedy, lying manipulative individuals (managers) and people who call themselves family by sliding into the lead singers life. 

I love the band they were (on stage) in their heyday! But let’s get one thing straight! Every single person involved in this band can be call out for being shady. They all have their own versions of the truth, which is fine. But let’s not forget that if they were up in the dock under cross examination, they’d all be torn to shreds 🤣

 

every last one of them! 

Except for Dizzy and Melissa, they never done no wrong to nobody! 

[megaguns1982]

Haha.... sad

Until del says it... I won’t believe anything..... he wrote some shit book, right?

[SilverMachine]

4 hours ago, Blackstar said:

Goldstein never managed the Stone Roses. There were only discussions and negotiations.

He looked after them briefly for a three month period in early '95 as a try out when they did a US promotional run (radio and press interviews) and filmed the US Love Spreads video.

During that time they sacked off a UK tour and Reni left.

[Sisyphus]

This letter made me question Doug's sanity. When I heard Axl say Doug ended up in an insane asylum I wasn't surprised at all.

[Blackstar]

29 minutes ago, SilverMachine said:

He looked after them briefly for a three month period in early '95 as a try out when they did a US promotional run (radio and press interviews) and filmed the US Love Spreads video.

During that time they sacked off a UK tour and Reni left.

Oh, I see. I didn't realise they had actually tried him out. It's hard to blame anything of what happened at that time on him, though. From a quick search I did in articles and interviews it seems that they liked him.

[Legendador]

On 1/13/2019 at 10:45 PM, Sydney Fan said:

Im sure there are interviews with axl where the reason why he owned the name was incase the other band members died and didnt want the name to be challanged by ex wives or girlfriends. I think this was around 89/90 when the band were in their drug haze.

I really don't get all the fuzz around the name!

Guns N' Roses was called like that because it started as the Tracii GUNS and Axl ROSE band, Tracii left, didn't care about the name, Axl kept going and it was uphill from there!

That's his name in it, the band is his, the name is his! It always has! It was just a formality and imagine being "sober or using recreationally" and working 24/7 with people out of their minds?

By the end of the day it's a multi-million dollar business, of course he was right to do it, at any minute Slash or Duff could sell their rights for drugs at that time, they could die and their families or wives would want to have a share of "their" business. That's what Axl was being protective of. Also, Izzy and Steven sold their rights to the band and that's why we have a TRIO and not all 5 allumini in the fold.

This is a no win discussion, Axl did nothing wrong.

Edited February 4, 2021 by Legendador

[Sisyphus]

1 hour ago, Legendador said:

I really don't get all the fuzz around the name!

Guns N' Roses was called like that because it started as the Tracii GUNS and Axl ROSE band, Tracii left, didn't care about the name, Axl kept going and it was uphill from there!

There's his name in it, the band is his, the name is his! It always has! It was just a formality and imagine been "sober or using recreationally" and working with people 24/7 out of their minds?

By the end of the day it's a multi-million dollar business, of course he was right to do it, at any minute Slash or Duff could sell their rights for drugs at that time, they could die and their families of wives would want to have a share of "their" business. That's what Axl was being protective of. Also, Izzy and Steven sold their rights to the band and that's why we have a TRIO and not all 5 allumini in the fold.

This is a no win discussion, Axl did nothing wrong.

You make some valid points.

However, I don't really believe Axl was more entitled to the name because it was based on Rose/Guns combo. I think that everyone that contributed to the success of the original band is somewhat entitled to the name.  I abhor the fact people insist on calling Ole Beich, Rob Gardner and Tracii Guns "original" Guns N' Roses. It makes me laugh. I think Beich played ONE show and the other two split in a month or two. The original band is defined by their debut. The people who wrote and played on it. That's the way I see. But I digress.

Regarding the GN'R name Axl has stated that the others agreed from the beginning that the name was his because he originally came up with it. Fair play. If that was their agreement he has every right to do with it whatever he wants. 

It makes total sense for Axl to add the bit about the name to protect GN'R from outsiders, wifes, family members in case anything happens to Slash and Duff. I think that was a logical and understandable move. Just look at the whole Dave Grohl/Courtney Love nonsense or what happened between the parents of Jim Morrison and Pamela Courson. Or the arguments between the wife and daughters regarding Tom Petty estate. Disgusting. Axl wanted to avoid that and it was smart thinking on his part.

However, to my understanding the deal wasn't just that Axl keeps the names if Slash, Duff or both leave/die but Axl also keeps the name if he decides to leave or form a new band! The first option (Slash/Duff leaving or dying) makes total sense but the second one is a little shady and makes Axl's intentions questionable.

As it turned out Axl did exactly that. He withdrew from the partnership on 31st december 1995 and formed a new one. Then he offered Slash and Duff to be a part of this new partnership as basically glorified salaried musicians.  They still "owned" their share of GN'R brand but were now inferior to him. From that point on Axl was unequivocally at the helm. 

Why the hell did he have to do that? He claimed it was an effort to "salvage" Guns not "steal it". From what? Democracy? Sharing honest opinions? Must have been one hell of a salvation if it took another 13 years to release an album.

When Slash left the band Axl claimed "Slash had been out of the partnership since 31st december 1995". But that was Axl's doing not Slash's. 

This means Axl didn't legally obtain the name once Slash and Duff were out but did so while they were still trying to make it work. In January 1997 it was reported that Axl "bought the Guns N' Roses" name but to my understanding the name has been legally his since early 1996. 

I'm not an expert but maybe the official "buying of the name" meant that he was from then on the sole beneficiary of merchandise profits or other similar sources of income.
 

Edited February 3, 2021 by Sisyphus

[The Holographic Universe]

On 1/10/2019 at 4:34 PM, Modano09 said:

He sounds needy. 

Parasitic 

[Euchre]

2 hours ago, Legendador said:

There's his name in it, the band is his, the name is his! It always has! It was just a formality and imagine been "sober or using recreationally" and working with people 24/7 out of their minds?

By the end of the day it's a multi-million dollar business,

I think this is revisionist history - there wouldn't be the success of the "multi-million business" without the other 4 + Niven.

As far as having to deal with people 24/7, Axl was the most regular one to either screw things up or attempt to screw things up. Without the other 4 and a strong manager in Niven around, we would never have heard of GN'R.

I think Axl was fired something like 3 times in the 80's. He wasn't as essential as people like to now believe. He also threatened to quit once, which of course he was never going to follow through with, for the same reason CD was released under the GNR name - he knows he is nothing without it. Even with the brand name, he managed to completely run things into the ground to the point where he had to bring Slash/Duff back to lift things again.

Here is a quick list of Axl incidents that could have caused major issues for the original band :

* band gets signed. Axl throws tantrum on the day of signing and goes missing - band/Vicky save the day

* club band plays one of first shows with International act, Alice Cooper, Axl fails to show - band/Niven save the day

* Appetite recorded, set for release - Axl overdoses and ends up in a coma - Doctors save him

* 2nd tour with major act is again with Alice Cooper and again Axl doesn't show up for the first show - band saves the day

* Ritz being recorded for MTV, Niven piggy backs of Great White to even get this to happen - Axl refuses to go onstage as he doesn't have a bandanna, MTV crew threatening to pack up - management / possibly Adler saves the day. This show on MTV is a huge factor in their success.

* Headlining shows in Phoenix early '88- Axl fails to show, band goes into major meltdown, almost splits

* SCOM Video shoot - Axl upset about something and fails to show for first 1 or 2 days of attempted shooting. This is their breakout video.

* Iron Maiden tour - Axl upset about something, causes major issues between the bands eventually quits the tour citing 'voice issues'

* Aerosmith tour - most critical tour for the band, Axl doesn't want to do it. Niven saves the day, Axl participates against his will. This is the tour that puts them over the top.

* Paradise City video shoot - Duff, Slash & Steve show up for the NY shoot - where are Axl & Izzy ?

* Axl insists on the lyrics for OIAM and it being on Lies against the advice of the remainder of the band. Kicks off one of the biggest controversies for the band.

* Rehearsals for follow up to Appetite in Chicago - Slash, Steve, Duff there rehearsing in another city at Axls insistance. Axl (Izzy also) doesn't show up for weeks. Causes a major rift in the band.

* Rolling Stones shows - biggest show of the bands career and he threatens not to show up. Niven saves the day and then Axl quits on stage - severely undermining the band

 

In fact the only major things for the band he didn't fuck up in the 80's was : Cult Tour, Motley Tour & WTTJ & Patience Video shoots - and even then who knows - even the Cult tour I think he got arrested trying to take contraband across the Canadian border. (He also missed at least 1 show for being arrested)

That is not a good record, he was the most problematic to work with of them all, no one else had issues that extensive - and like I said upfront once he got in a situation where he had control and there was no one to save him from himself things went to shit pretty quickly - which is exactly what they would have done if he had that same control in the 80's.

 

Edited February 3, 2021 by Euchre

[Stay.Of.Execution]

22 hours ago, HollyWoodRose84 said:

It’s beyond crazy that this guy was THE manger for Guns and Axl for all those years. Imagine if this band actually  proper, long term management like The Stones or Aerosmith? 

I'd take him over the imbecile that is fernando any day.

[themadcaplaughs]

7 hours ago, rumandraisin said:

What order do the managers go in? 

Doug until 2001

Merck 2002 till 2006?

Azoff 2008 till 2009?

Doc something 2010 till 2011

Team Brazil 2011 onwards

I think there was some overlap between Dough and Merck. From one of Goldstein's interviews a few years back, I think he said he still managed day to day dealings with Axl as a manager, and was around at least until the 2002 VMAs. I imagine he was dumped shortly after that. I also know Peter Katsis managed the band for a minute (like one or two months) at some point between 2010 and 2011. I want to say after Doc and before Team Brazil, but I could be wrong on the timing, but I'm pretty sure Katsis' team set up the interview with That Metal Show in 2011. 

Edited February 3, 2021 by themadcaplaughs

[BangoSkank]

Massive fame and success has such awful downsides. Case in point: leeches and hanger-ons like this guy.