Game of Thrones - The Final Season (***SPOILERS***)

[username]

24 minutes ago, Deb Rose said:

Ok, something has been bothering me, and maybe it's just my need for proper sleep and a vacation that causes lack of attention, or maybe it just has been too long since I've read the books (I'm working towards rereading them soon), so see if you can help me:

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The whole Azhor Ahai thing, promised prince, flaming sword, blah blah blah, the whole point was to fight the dead army, right? So where the fuck was he? Didn't Melissandre kind of kill it all with the lighting of the Dothraki swords? Like, if she can light any shit up, what's the point of having a promised prince?

 

Not ever legend or prophecy has to turn out true, I guess. 

Spoiler

But what does bother me a little, is that the white walkers sort of always felt like the main antagonist here. The one that binds the present with myths and legends. The big one. Seems a little anti-climatic to be done with them entirely and move on with people waging war against people. So yeah... Three-eyed raven? Long night? Prophecy? Now it's just people fighting people and not even an elephant in sight. 

 

Edited April 29, 2019 by username

[Deb Rose]

4 minutes ago, username said:

 

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But what does bother me a little, is that the white walkers sort of always felt like the main antagonist here. The one that binds the present with myths and legends. The big one. Seems a little anti-climatic to be done with them entirely and move on with people waging war against people. So yeah... Three-eyed raven? Long night? Prophecy? Now it's just people fighting people and not even an elephant in sight. 

 

Yes, also true. 

Spoiler

I was hoping for something like the people being defeated and fleeing, some maybe remain hidden in the ruins of Winterfell, and the dead army marching on to King's Landing but with Jon and Dany and some other folks running ahead. Then they would all clash down there. Oh well. Maybe there's some way for another Night King to rise? Little Sam was supposed to be given to them... And he was in the cript... HUUUM. Hahahaha. No, that's too far-fetched. 

 

[AtariLegend]

8 minutes ago, Deb Rose said:

Yes, also true. 

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Little Sam was supposed to be given to them... And he was in the cript...

 

It was silly this was never referenced on screen. It's like Meera/Rickon.

43 minutes ago, Deb Rose said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

The whole Azhor Ahai thing, promised prince, flaming sword, blah blah blah, the whole point was to fight the dead army, right? So where the fuck was he? Didn't Melissandre kind of kill it all with the lighting of the Dothraki swords? Like, if she can light any shit up, what's the point of having a promised prince?

 

If you watch behind the scenes video, it's clearly something D/D came up with up with.

They dropped most of the mythology of the books then added their own.

Also valyrian steel and dragon glass in season 5 suddenly killing wights. In books Dragon Glass can kill a white walker (other), but not a wight (undead). Show was just inconsistent with that part of the story for the purpose of TV.

Don't get me wrong, I thought this was a great episode until the resolution, but it's to be expected. They can't do plot or consistency, but they do great fan service along with the tits and dragons the show has been sold on since season 5. It's worked out well for them.

Edited April 29, 2019 by AtariLegend

[Deb Rose]

52 minutes ago, AtariLegend said:

It was silly this was never referenced on screen. It's like Meera/Rickon.

If you watch behind the scenes video, it's clearly something D/D came up with up with.

They dropped most of the mythology of the books then added their own.

Also valyrian steel and dragon glass in season 5 suddenly killing wights. In books Dragon Glass can kill a white walker (other), but not a wight (undead). Show was just inconsistent with that part of the story for the purpose of TV.

Don't get me wrong, I thought this was a great episode until the resolution, but it's to be expected. They can't do plot or consistency, but they do great fan service along with the tits and dragons the show has been sold on since season 5. It's worked out well for them.

Well I do like me some fanservice. Hahaha. The little things with Sansa and Tyrion give me hope.

I just want George Axl Martin to come out with The Chinese Winds of Winter Democracy already. 

[-Jaro-]

1 hour ago, AtariLegend said:

It was silly this was never referenced on screen. It's like Meera/Rickon.

If you watch behind the scenes video, it's clearly something D/D came up with up with.

They dropped most of the mythology of the books then added their own.

Also valyrian steel and dragon glass in season 5 suddenly killing wights. In books Dragon Glass can kill a white walker (other), but not a wight (undead). Show was just inconsistent with that part of the story for the purpose of TV.

Don't get me wrong, I thought this was a great episode until the resolution, but it's to be expected. They can't do plot or consistency, but they do great fan service along with the tits and dragons the show has been sold on since season 5. It's worked out well for them.

Well 

"The night is dark and full of plot holes. "

[downzy]

I honestly don't get the criticisms about how this episode concluded.  This season is essentially broken up into two parts.  I'll keep the rest of my comments in spoiler tags so as not to ruin anything for anyone who hasn't seen last night's episode.

 

The expectation that the Night King and his dead army would continue until the end of the season is, in my opinion, unrealistic.  The first two episodes were a lead up to the battle for Winterfell, the second half of the season will be the culmination of the game of thrones.  In my mind they have been two separate narratives.  This notion that the NK was going to end up sitting on the throne is kind of ridiculous.  He's not about thrones but about decimation of all things.  Putting him on the throne would have been kind of pointless. 

Nor would it had made any sense for the NK to win the battle and have the remainder of the season be about Cersei and the NK fighting it out.  Who would really care about such an outcome?  

It also wouldn't have made any sense for the Battle of Winterfell not to have been decisive.  One side was going to win and the other was going to get crushed.  There was no plan B for either side.  How would Danny and Jon retreat their forces from such an onslaught?  Kings Landing isn't exactly close by.  How would they all end up in King's Landing to finish the battle?  It would have made no sense.

There were theories that the NK wasn't going to devote his entire forces to Winterfell and instead fly south to King's Landing to take out Cersei while he kept Jon and Danny bogged down at Winterfell.  Except this would likely rob the audience of storylines that kind of need to happen, particularly with Jamie and Cersei; the Hound and Mountain.  

The other issue with some massive battle at the end with Cersei, Jon/Danny, and the Night King is it would have been too much for one episode, even if they made it two hours long.  DD are working with the medium of television.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's never been a battle between forces that have been broken up between two episodes.  There's always a beginning and an end to every major skirmish contained within an episode.  

I've also read people complaining that the story is called A Song of Ice and Fire and that destruction of the Night King and his army half way through the final season is anti-climatic.  Except that's the story of the books.  The show is called Game of Thrones and far more time has been invested in the characters and relationships surrounding who rules the seven kingdoms.  That, to me, is far more interesting than what happens with a speechless bad guy and an army of dead that viewers have no discernible connection with.  So far I've been happy with the fact the first half of this season has focused on the lesser of the two major narrative arcs first and will settle the more interested and invested storyline in the second half.  I'm sure GRRM will have a slightly different outcome with how the whole thing ends but he has the benefit of working with the medium of books.  

I do think the criticism of too many main characters surviving the battle is understandable.  It defies belief that the human side took such heavy losses but somehow most of the main players were able to survive.  If we ignore the probability of that for a second, one thing I think makes GoT so much fun to watch is that it plays against viewers expectations.  We have been shocked when so many lead characters have died that we've kind of come to expect it now.  In that way it's kind of surprising that they didn't do what we expected and what was alluded to in the build up.  Many of the well known characters survived despite what we expected.  Plus it allows for better conclusions for many of these characters as the battle moves southward. 

[ZoSoRose]

Years of build up and there has been minimal explanation or pay off regarding severalbstory lines

Some of the cinematography was phenominal but the writing itself left me very underwhelmed. 

[downzy]

21 minutes ago, ZoSoRose said:

Years of build up and there has been minimal explanation or pay off regarding severalbstory lines

Some of the cinematography was phenominal but the writing itself left me very underwhelmed. 

Season isn't over yet.  What kind of explanation were you looking for that you think we're not going to get?

[downzy]

GoT S08E03 > Avengers: Endgame

[Nicklord]

1 hour ago, downzy said:

I honestly don't get the criticisms about how this episode concluded.  This season is essentially broken up into two parts.  I'll keep the rest of my comments in spoiler tags so as not to ruin anything for anyone who hasn't seen last night's episode.

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The expectation that the Night King and his dead army would continue until the end of the season is, in my opinion, unrealistic.  The first two episodes were a lead up to the battle for Winterfell, the second half of the season will be the culmination of the game of thrones.  In my mind they have been two separate narratives.  This notion that the NK was going to end up sitting on the throne is kind of ridiculous.  He's not about thrones but about decimation of all things.  Putting him on the throne would have been kind of pointless. 

Nor would it had made any sense for the NK to win the battle and have the remainder of the season be about Cersei and the NK fighting it out.  Who would really care about such an outcome?  

It also wouldn't have made any sense for the Battle of Winterfell not to have been decisive.  One side was going to win and the other was going to get crushed.  There was no plan B for either side.  How would Danny and Jon retreat their forces from such an onslaught?  Kings Landing isn't exactly close by.  How would they all end up in King's Landing to finish the battle?  It would have made no sense.

There were theories that the NK wasn't going to devote his entire forces to Winterfell and instead fly south to King's Landing to take out Cersei while he kept Jon and Danny bogged down at Winterfell.  Except this would likely rob the audience of storylines that kind of need to happen, particularly with Jamie and Cersei; the Hound and Mountain.  

The other issue with some massive battle at the end with Cersei, Jon/Danny, and the Night King is it would have been too much for one episode, even if they made it two hours long.  DD are working with the medium of television.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's never been a battle between forces that have been broken up between two episodes.  There's always a beginning and an end to every major skirmish contained within an episode.  

I've also read people complaining that the story is called A Song of Ice and Fire and that destruction of the Night King and his army half way through the final season is anti-climatic.  Except that's the story of the books.  The show is called Game of Thrones and far more time has been invested in the characters and relationships surrounding who rules the seven kingdoms.  That, to me, is far more interesting than what happens with a speechless bad guy and an army of dead that viewers have no discernible connection with.  So far I've been happy with the fact the first half of this season has focused on the lesser of the two major narrative arcs first and will settle the more interested and invested storyline in the second half.  I'm sure GRRM will have a slightly different outcome with how the whole thing ends but he has the benefit of working with the medium of books.  

I do think the criticism of too many main characters surviving the battle is understandable.  It defies belief that the human side took such heavy losses but somehow most of the main players were able to survive.  If we ignore the probability of that for a second, one thing I think makes GoT so much fun to watch is that it plays against viewers expectations.  We have been shocked when so many lead characters have died that we've kind of come to expect it now.  In that way it's kind of surprising that they didn't do what we expected and what was alluded to in the build up.  Many of the well known characters survived despite what we expected.  Plus it allows for better conclusions for many of these characters as the battle moves southward. 

 

I enjoy humans vs humans way more too but my problems aren't about that. Like if Cersei wins and literally kills every single "good" character this isn't really over, in 10 years some house will raise and begin a rebellion and here we go again. If WW win nobody is alive and it's over for everyone. NK's the biggest threat and they did him dirty with his ending. Now the stakes aren't that high. Good guys saved humanity. Yeah, Cersei is mad king 2.0 but comparing to this threat they just destroyed it's meaningless. They established WW as the biggest and the only true threat in the first scene of the series (it's the same in the books too) not Cersei. If they portrayed WW differently then I would agree with you.

Imagine this. Ending of the battle: Arya stabs NK but he doesn't die, you see him scared and he calls out for his dragon and flees as Jon and some other characters arrive. Then the rest of the living goes south and in episode 5 we have a big 3 way meeting/battle. I mean it doesn't have to be like that, there could've been 20 different outcomes that won't end NK that could still leave more than enough roomfor a lot of politics and human interactions. Right now it's basically good guys vs bad guys. And you know one good guy is going to betray the rest but in the end they'll still win with probably several big deaths in a big wildfire event cause their clues are as subtle as brick to the face.

 

 

Can someone fix this?

 

Edited April 29, 2019 by Nicklord

[downzy]

1 hour ago, Nicklord said:

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I enjoy humans vs humans way more too but my problems aren't about that. Like if Cersei wins and literally kills every single "good" character this isn't really over, in 10 years some house will raise and begin a rebellion and here we go again. If WW win nobody is alive and it's over for everyone. NK's the biggest threat and they did him dirty with his ending. Now the stakes aren't that high. Good guys saved humanity. Yeah, Cersei is mad king 2.0 but comparing to this threat they just destroyed it's meaningless. They established WW as the biggest and the only true threat in the first scene of the series (it's the same in the books too) not Cersei. If they portrayed WW differently then I would agree with you.

Imagine this. Ending of the battle: Arya stabs NK but he doesn't die, you see him scared and he calls out for his dragon and flees as Jon and some other characters arrive. Then the rest of the living goes south and in episode 5 we have a big 3 way meeting/battle. I mean it doesn't have to be like that, there could've been 20 different outcomes that won't end NK that could still leave more than enough roomfor a lot of politics and human interactions. Right now it's basically good guys vs bad guys. And you know one good guy is going to betray the rest but in the end they'll still win with probably several big deaths in a big wildfire event cause their clues are as subtle as brick to the face.

 

 

Can someone fix this?

 

 

I think the final three episodes aren't as simple as you're making them to be (good vs. bad guys).  There's still a lot of dissension within both camps.  It's not clear (and I'd argue not likely) that either Cersei, Jon, or Dany will end up on the throne when all of this is said and done.  That to me is the far more interesting story, how all the lines of contention relating to family and politics get sorted out.  Yes, the battle between the NK was the existential threat within the show, but that doesn't make it more interesting than all the other storylines that have been developed over the last couple of years.

I also don't understand or see the point of extending the NK's presence to the end of the series.  Logistically, even if you were to somehow have the NK to fly off with his dragon, how does the northern army still survive?  It's not exactly clear how many humans remain, but Dany and Jon's forces still look fairly decimated.  How would they survive the continued onslaught of the NK's army even with the NK licking his wounds somewhere else?  How the episode/battle was set up really left for one outcome; the destruction of one side or the other.  I don't see how it works any other way from a logistical standpoint.

I get that the story starts with the White Wakers and they're an important component of the show, but if GoT has succeeded it's not because it's a middle ages zombie thriller.  It's the interplay between politics and family.  For me that is the far more interesting dynamic and narrative than a battle between humans and a mindless army of the undead.  The NK and his army is an interesting plot device to show what some characters do when forced to make the hard call.  Jon and Dany put asides their own agendas to do the right thing; Cersei did not.  The story told within the show (not the books) has centred around the dynamic of doing the right thing when it may not be the most strategic action. 

I also think it was very Games of Thronesy to have the NK go out in the third episode.  What's more Game of Thrones than having one of the most infamous characters die that doesn't take place at (or near) the end of the season?  Having the NK around for the grand finale in that sense would be somewhat more predictable but also distract from the far more interesting storylines that have been given far more attention throughout the entire show.

[Basic_GnR_Fan]

I'm waiting to see how this is tied up to judge. Judging a series episode to episode doesn't make sense to me because of the missing contexts. I've been pretty entertained thus far and my interest has held. And this culture of spotting the plot hole I find to be very tedious. 

[Basic_GnR_Fan]

Spoiler

Although my big problem with the final battle was that Bran basically did nothing. All he did was warg into some crows to watch the Night King. I was expecting him to do something supernatural to save himself and everyone and not have Arya coming out of nowhere at the last second.

 

[AtariLegend]

26 minutes ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

 And this culture of spotting the plot hole I find to be very tedious. 

I know the casual watchers who never read the books, don't notice. However during season 4 finale when Jamie and Tyrion have a very different conversation to what they have in the books, the show dramatically shifted away from the books and dropped various random plotlines that were set up in earlier seasons from the books.

I don't see how can anyone can watch season 5 and not notice a dramatic shift in tone of the show and the writing. Especially the characters like Tyrion and Varys. Those characters for example became nothing more than characters who randomly saying witty things. Sanaa's character arc literally makes no sense if you anazylze it, nevermind Little finger.

Arya is one of the central characters of the story, but the changes the writers made to her story in season 5 make no sense. She literally became Wotherine, because she was hit with a stick. 

I like this show, I'll never forget it. That was mostly a fantastic episode, but I think it's unfair to critize when someone brings up that alot of it makes no sense.

Edited April 29, 2019 by AtariLegend

[downzy]

23 minutes ago, AtariLegend said:

I know the casual watchers who never read the books, don't notice. However during season 4 finale when Jamie and Tyrion have a very different conversation to what they have in the books, the show dramatically shifted away from the books and dropped various random plotlines that were set up in earlier seasons from the books.

I don't see how can anyone can watch season 5 and not notice a dramatic shift in tone of the show and the writing. Especially the characters like Tyrion and Varys. Those characters for example became nothing more than characters who randomly saying witty things. Sanaa's character arc literally makes no sense if you anazylze it, nevermind Little finger.

Arya is one of the central characters of the story, but the changes the writers made to her story in season 5 make no sense. She literally became Wotherine, because she was hit with a stick. 

I like this show, I'll never forget it. That was mostly a fantastic episode, but I think it's unfair to critize when someone brings up that alot of it makes no sense.

Perhaps the benefit of ignorance for not reading the books.  I do think with television the story gets told with broader strokes and it's easier to spot issues with focus and other matters.

D&D seem interested in some characters more than others.  With the show moving past the books, I think they decided what they wanted to focus on and hence had to downplay or turn down some of the other characters that were so central to the beginning of the story.  Some of this could be explained by budget restrictions.  Each successive season deals with bigger and more ambitious scenes and set pieces.  I believe GRRM told D&D where the story will end up in the books, but as they have restrictions relating to television format and budgets, it's not as though they can develop and devote time with characters to the same degree with previous seasons.  

That isn't to excuse every mistake since there are somethings that are difficult to explain or look past.  But it seems to me that the people who have read the books expect too much at times and forget to realize that the medium of television and the nature of the show do not lend themselves to the same kind of storytelling the show bore in the first three seasons.  

As GRRM admitted last week, the show would likely need another five seasons were it to follow the books properly.  That just doesn't seem to be logistically feasible in any sense.  

[Nicklord]

1 hour ago, downzy said:

  Reveal hidden contents

I think the final three episodes aren't as simple as you're making them to be (good vs. bad guys).  There's still a lot of dissension within both camps.  It's not clear (and I'd argue not likely) that either Cersei, Jon, or Dany will end up on the throne when all of this is said and done.  That to me is the far more interesting story, how all the lines of contention relating to family and politics get sorted out.  Yes, the battle between the NK was the existential threat within the show, but that doesn't make it more interesting than all the other storylines that have been developed over the last couple of years.

I also don't understand or see the point of extending the NK's presence to the end of the series.  Logistically, even if you were to somehow have the NK to fly off with his dragon, how does the northern army still survive?  It's not exactly clear how many humans remain, but Dany and Jon's forces still look fairly decimated.  How would they survive the continued onslaught of the NK's army even with the NK licking his wounds somewhere else?  How the episode/battle was set up really left for one outcome; the destruction of one side or the other.  I don't see how it works any other way from a logistical standpoint.

I get that the story starts with the White Wakers and they're an important component of the show, but if GoT has succeeded it's not because it's a middle ages zombie thriller.  It's the interplay between politics and family.  For me that is the far more interesting dynamic and narrative than a battle between humans and a mindless army of the undead.  The NK and his army is an interesting plot device to show what some characters do when forced to make the hard call.  Jon and Dany put asides their own agendas to do the right thing; Cersei did not.  The story told within the show (not the books) has centred around the dynamic of doing the right thing when it may not be the most strategic action. 

I also think it was very Games of Thronesy to have the NK go out in the third episode.  What's more Game of Thrones than having one of the most infamous characters die that doesn't take place at (or near) the end of the season?  Having the NK around for the grand finale in that sense would be somewhat more predictable but also distract from the far more interesting storylines that have been given far more attention throughout the entire show.

Exactly my point. They made white walkers a plot device and they shouldn't be. In the very first scene of this show they made signs out of dead people and let one guy live (forgot his name), then they take Craster's babies, they got defeated 8000 years ago barely and made a wall to keep them there.... which should establish that they aren't just a mindless killing machines but the show in last 2 seasons made them like that. They had a chance in this episode to do something about it but they didn't. It's not Game of Thronesy at all to have mindless killing machines that just want everyone dead. It's not Game of Thronesy to kill somebody just for the sake of killing them, to have characters seem overrun by wights and then in the next scene to be totally okay... People shouldn't be saved after they fuck up, that's the whole point of all of this. Jon was saved after he fucked up and that was a really big thing and a little girl was lit on fire for that but now everyone is saved Main characters can't die anymore. Jon and Dany both fucked up strategy in this episode and they didn't lose anything. They made everyone go to the crypts and nobody suffered from that except several nonames. It's not Game of Thrones anymore, it's just a basic epic fantasy story.

Nobody has a grand scheme anymore, clues are so subtle they almost spell them out. So many characters are useless for several seasons. Whole S7 had no good politics in it too and they had so many chances to do that. They even had every major character at the same place. That's why I think good guys vs bad guys will be basic too. They're setting up Tyrion to fuck something up and it's so obvious.

NK vs Jon/Dany vs Cersei as done in the show and especially this episode wouldn't work cause they failed to give NK meaning. If they gave some meaning to him then there could be endless possibilities to more political drama but no.

[ZoSoRose]

3 hours ago, downzy said:

Season isn't over yet.  What kind of explanation were you looking for that you think we're not going to get?

 

3 hours ago, downzy said:

GoT S08E03 > Avengers: Endgame

Not even close for me. Although it had some plot holes, Endgame was way more satisfying for me. Last nights GOT was very disappointing for me.

Ive been wanting to really get into my thoughts here but its been busy today. I'll try tonight or tomorrow. 

You are right, the show isnt over. I'm just sadly not optimistic. I am guessing I am feeling like how you and many others felt about TLJ

Edited April 29, 2019 by ZoSoRose

[downzy]

55 minutes ago, ZoSoRose said:

 

Not even close for me. Although it had some plot holes, Endgame was way more satisfying for me. Last nights GOT was very disappointing for me.

Ive been wanting to really get into my thoughts here but its been busy today. I'll try tonight or tomorrow. 

You are right, the show isnt over. I'm just sadly not optimistic. I am guessing I am feeling like how you and many others felt about TLJ

A:EG was great and I did enjoy it, but it never gave me the fuck yeah moment that concluded the end of events in yesterday's GoT episode.

Some of you probably saw it coming, but I was completely shocked when Arya came out of no where to take a swing at the NK.  I was shocked again when she dropped the dagger only to grab it with her other hand and taking down the NK.  That was one of the best scenes and I think the producers and scriptwriters did a great job of making the audience forget about Arya to be surprised when she showed up at the end.  Plus I love the fact that things had come full circle, with Jon now being overpowered by a larger enemy while Arya was the one using the pointy end to take down her.  I think last night's episode was the culmination of Arya's story.  I think going forward we'll see Jon, Dany and others take more of a lead in what happens.

[downzy]

1 hour ago, Nicklord said:

 

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Exactly my point. They made white walkers a plot device and they shouldn't be. In the very first scene of this show they made signs out of dead people and let one guy live (forgot his name), then they take Craster's babies, they got defeated 8000 years ago barely and made a wall to keep them there.... which should establish that they aren't just a mindless killing machines but the show in last 2 seasons made them like that. They had a chance in this episode to do something about it but they didn't. It's not Game of Thronesy at all to have mindless killing machines that just want everyone dead. It's not Game of Thronesy to kill somebody just for the sake of killing them, to have characters seem overrun by wights and then in the next scene to be totally okay... People shouldn't be saved after they fuck up, that's the whole point of all of this. Jon was saved after he fucked up and that was a really big thing and a little girl was lit on fire for that but now everyone is saved Main characters can't die anymore. Jon and Dany both fucked up strategy in this episode and they didn't lose anything. They made everyone go to the crypts and nobody suffered from that except several nonames. It's not Game of Thrones anymore, it's just a basic epic fantasy story.

Nobody has a grand scheme anymore, clues are so subtle they almost spell them out. So many characters are useless for several seasons. Whole S7 had no good politics in it too and they had so many chances to do that. They even had every major character at the same place. That's why I think good guys vs bad guys will be basic too. They're setting up Tyrion to fuck something up and it's so obvious.

NK vs Jon/Dany vs Cersei as done in the show and especially this episode wouldn't work cause they failed to give NK meaning. If they gave some meaning to him then there could be endless possibilities to more political drama but no.

 

 

Except there aren't really that many White Walkers, at least this is alluded to by the show.  Most of the army, maybe 99 percent, are wights.  Again, I think a lot of it has to do with the constraints of the television format.  

What exactly did they have a chance to do in this episode that would have feasibly let some of the humans live?  

With respect to giving NK meaning, what else did you need?  We know why he exists, what his motivations are, and how he went about orchestrating and executing his plans.  I've felt it's been pretty clear cut from seasons 4 and 5 onward.  Ultimately things were pretty much locked in place for an episode like we got.  If you have issue with the finality of the NK and his army, that's not really the fault of this episode or what was left to be done in this season but with the last few seasons.  

And I'm not really sure what's wrong with the NK's army populated mostly by mindless zombies in last night's episode.  That's not really a deviation of what we've seen since Season 5.  Again, there doesn't really seem to be that many true White Walkers (maybe a couple of hundred at best).  

I do agree that one of the problems of the episodes is that the NK's army is so overwhelming that it makes it  hard to believe that so many of the main characters would live.  There were moments, like Dany falling from Drogon, that should have resulted in her death, regardless of whether she was assisted by Jorah.  Or that somehow Sam survived when so many better skilled fighters died.  My other big issue is why Jon or anyone else thought it would be a good idea to keep the women and children in the crypt, since the NK has the ability to raise the dead.  

But I don't see your logic that characters in GoT always suffer from making mistakes.  Dany and Jon definitely do a piss poor job in planning and executing their plan.  But to say they didn't lose anything is to ignore the fact that their armies have been pretty much wiped out.  And they (along with everyone else) definitely would have perished were it not for Arya.  

I actually think they're setting Tyrion to redeem himself after a couple of seasons of shitting the bed.  I'd bet both he and Jamie are the reasons why Cersei falls, but have no clue whether it involves their own deaths or Tyrion's somehow ascendancy to the throne.  After being out-strategized by his sister on several occasions, I think Tyrion will outsmart her and it will lead to her downfall, with maybe Jamie being the one to put her down for good (and hence both reinforce but also redeem his moniker and himself).  There's still a lot to work out between Dany and Jon with respect to claims to the to throne, and Sansa seems defiant in ensuring that the North does not bend the knee to anyone again.  Again, all of this stuff matters more to me than the battle between humans and the dead.  It was a thrilling episode, but I'm glad it's dealt with so we can get to the conclusion of the main participants.  The NK, as I understand it, isn't even in the books and was given all of 10-15 minutes of screen time prior to last night's episode.  In terms of narrative importance, he's way down on the list relative to the investment we've had with most other characters. 

[downzy]

*** AFTER TODAY SPOILER TAGS NO LONGER NEEDED FOR PREVIOUSLY AIRED EPISODES ***

 

Came across this article a few minutes ago.  Does a good job a explaining why Sunday's episode not doing what many expected was the right call.

https://www.vox.com/culture/2019/4/29/18522731/game-of-thrones-season-8-episode-3-battle-of-winterfell-not-that-deadly

 

"But if Game of Thrones ended with the battle against the Night King, it would, in essence, be saying that once you win the right to keep existing, that’s it. The conflict is over. You have found an uneasy peace, and you can finally embrace it. This is more or less what happens in J.R.R. Tolkien’s The Lord of the Rings, the work that George R.R. Martin’s A Song of Ice and Fire novels are most directly in conversation with. Various factions pause their fighting to unite behind Aragorn’s desperate quest to destroy Sauron, and then once Aragorn succeeds, everybody’s cool with him taking the throne.

But what Game of Thrones is doing is much more in line with the ending of The Hobbit, Tolkien’s predecessor to The Lord of the Rings. In that book, the evil dragon Smaug is defeated, but he leaves behind a massive pile of treasure. The resulting squabble — and eventual battle — over that treasure coats few of the characters in valor and results in Tolkien using the opportunity to moralize not too subtly over the corrosive nature of greed.

Game of Thrones is now at the halfway point of its final season, and with the Battle of Winterfell in the past, the show is implicitly asking, “So what happens next?” Now that the world hasn’tended, where do we go from here? And there’s no easy answer! It seems clear that now that the Night King is gone, Daenerys will expect everybody to fall in line behind her, but both Tyrion and Jaime are going to have some sort of feelings about turning the fight toward their sister; Sansa doesn’t trust Dany at all; and Jon has recently learned he also has a valid claim to the Iron Throne, perhaps an even more valid one than Dany has.

But these fracture points are only interesting because all the characters involved in and affected by them are still alive. Cersei might not be as awe-inspiring a villain as the Night King, but that’s exactly the point. Though she’s done evil things, she’s just a human woman, and fighting to unseat her from the Iron Throne will mark a return to the sort of petty battling that allowed the Night King to rise without challenge in the first place.

The final three episodes of Game of Thrones are bound to somewhat feel petty and pointless, like everybody is squabbling over a chair when they were just fighting off the forces of death itself. But isn’t that exactly what would happen here, in our reality? Isn’t that what has happened multiple times throughout human history? It’s the lesson of Game of Thrones that our nobility is easy to sustain when we think we might lose our lives. It’s in every other scenario where we lose sight of our better natures."

[AtariLegend]

Just 1 last reminder. The Night King is a show invention and George specifically said the story wasn't about Dark Lords (aka Sauron).

The books take fantasy troupes then subvert them, it's not Lord of the Rings with Tyrion as Frodo 

[Georgy Zhukov]

That was an okay episode of The Walking Dead.

 

 

Lyanna's death wasn't something I wanted to see. Gross

[Graeme]

8 hours ago, AtariLegend said:

I know the casual watchers who never read the books, don't notice. However during season 4 finale when Jamie and Tyrion have a very different conversation to what they have in the books, the show dramatically shifted away from the books and dropped various random plotlines that were set up in earlier seasons from the books.

Is it bad that that one conversation was enough to make me say "Well, I'm done with this"?

Up until that point, it had been one of my favourite shows and, in my opinion, one of the best adaptations of a book series for the screen.

I've never watched a single episode after the end of Season 4 because of how I felt that small but utterly fundamental change boded for the show's relationship with the books in the seasons to come.

[username]

14 hours ago, downzy said:

Season isn't over yet.  What kind of explanation were you looking for that you think we're not going to get?

Spoiler

A lot actually. What did the White Walkers want? Was there more to them? What about Azor Ahai and Lightbringer? Remember how Melissandre was a huge fan of that one? The whole Stannis thing? What happened? Did she forget about all that and decided to light up a bunch of swords, send the Dothraki to their doom and then tell Arya to go kill the Night King instead? Are the Children Of The Forrest really gone? What IS the three-eyed raven anyway? And what's his purpose? What was his connection with the Night King? Weren't the two of them sort of in a balance? And was there more about the Crypts in Winterfell? Was there any meaning behind those weirwood tree's in relation to the children of the forrest and the three-eyed raven? And that's from the top of my head. Like I said earlier, this sort of end the entire mythological part of the series. And that seems abrupt. I loved most of the episode, but there's just all the loose ends. 

I was also really hoping for something about Jon getting closer to his Targaryan herritage, but I suppose that can still happen.

 

Edited April 30, 2019 by username

[Nicklord]

14 hours ago, downzy said:

 

  Hide contents

 

Except there aren't really that many White Walkers, at least this is alluded to by the show.  Most of the army, maybe 99 percent, are wights.  Again, I think a lot of it has to do with the constraints of the television format.  

What exactly did they have a chance to do in this episode that would have feasibly let some of the humans live?  

With respect to giving NK meaning, what else did you need?  We know why he exists, what his motivations are, and how he went about orchestrating and executing his plans.  I've felt it's been pretty clear cut from seasons 4 and 5 onward.  Ultimately things were pretty much locked in place for an episode like we got.  If you have issue with the finality of the NK and his army, that's not really the fault of this episode or what was left to be done in this season but with the last few seasons.  

And I'm not really sure what's wrong with the NK's army populated mostly by mindless zombies in last night's episode.  That's not really a deviation of what we've seen since Season 5.  Again, there doesn't really seem to be that many true White Walkers (maybe a couple of hundred at best).  

I do agree that one of the problems of the episodes is that the NK's army is so overwhelming that it makes it  hard to believe that so many of the main characters would live.  There were moments, like Dany falling from Drogon, that should have resulted in her death, regardless of whether she was assisted by Jorah.  Or that somehow Sam survived when so many better skilled fighters died.  My other big issue is why Jon or anyone else thought it would be a good idea to keep the women and children in the crypt, since the NK has the ability to raise the dead.  

But I don't see your logic that characters in GoT always suffer from making mistakes.  Dany and Jon definitely do a piss poor job in planning and executing their plan.  But to say they didn't lose anything is to ignore the fact that their armies have been pretty much wiped out.  And they (along with everyone else) definitely would have perished were it not for Arya.  

I actually think they're setting Tyrion to redeem himself after a couple of seasons of shitting the bed.  I'd bet both he and Jamie are the reasons why Cersei falls, but have no clue whether it involves their own deaths or Tyrion's somehow ascendancy to the throne.  After being out-strategized by his sister on several occasions, I think Tyrion will outsmart her and it will lead to her downfall, with maybe Jamie being the one to put her down for good (and hence both reinforce but also redeem his moniker and himself).  There's still a lot to work out between Dany and Jon with respect to claims to the to throne, and Sansa seems defiant in ensuring that the North does not bend the knee to anyone again.  Again, all of this stuff matters more to me than the battle between humans and the dead.  It was a thrilling episode, but I'm glad it's dealt with so we can get to the conclusion of the main participants.  The NK, as I understand it, isn't even in the books and was given all of 10-15 minutes of screen time prior to last night's episode.  In terms of narrative importance, he's way down on the list relative to the investment we've had with most other characters. 

 

 

In one of the episodes (Hardhome I think) when they kill a White Walker all of his wights drop down too. So many characters had a weapon that could kill them. They could have Jamie and Briene kill a White Walker, then Jorah kill another one, Jon maybe gets another kill and then have a lot of dead people drop on the ground. They shouldn't have made this a massacre cause that way they cornered themselves and the only thing that could save them is a sudden death of NK. They shouldn't just sacrifice Dothraki at the start, better defense could've been made. Oil that could catch on fire. All of that stuff could've make this like a 70-30 win for WW that could leave enough room for humans to escape. There absolutely should've been a more meaningful scene with Bran and NK too. All of that is very Game of Thrones and this episode wasn't. This was just an epic fantasy battle with good guys fighting bad guys and at the last moment getting saved. 

About GoT characters suffering from their mistakes. They lost majority of their armies but that's not really a GoT suffering. Jon choosing Bran and not Sam is a thing that should have a consequence. That was a perfect moment for Sam to die and then Jon question himself later. Dany falling of a dragon should be either a death sentence to her or Drogon. Sansa and Tyrion should've died in those crypts, or at least one of them, they made a mistake of getting down there but they didn't really suffer from it. A bunch of nobodies and their army did. That's basic epic fantasy thingy that GoT from the very first episode is trying not to be.