Game of Thrones - The Final Season (***SPOILERS***)

[downzy]

6 hours ago, username said:

  Hide contents

A lot actually. What did the White Walkers want? Was there more to them? What about Azor Ahai and Lightbringer? Remember how Melissandre was a huge fan of that one? The whole Stannis thing? What happened? Did she forget about all that and decided to light up a bunch of swords, send the Dothraki to their doom and then tell Arya to go kill the Night King instead? Are the Children Of The Forrest really gone? What IS the three-eyed raven anyway? And what's his purpose? What was his connection with the Night King? Weren't the two of them sort of in a balance? And was there more about the Crypts in Winterfell? Was there any meaning behind those weirwood tree's in relation to the children of the forrest and the three-eyed raven? And that's from the top of my head. Like I said earlier, this sort of end the entire mythological part of the series. And that seems abrupt. I loved most of the episode, but there's just all the loose ends. 

I was also really hoping for something about Jon getting closer to his Targaryan herritage, but I suppose that can still happen.

 

I thought much of that had been covered by the show already?

The White Walkers want to rid man from the seven kingdoms.  With respect to the show, they were created by the Children of the Forrest to combat the incursion of men, but the children lost control of them.  

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Azor Ahai was never really part of the TV series.  It's something limited to the books, other than perhaps a passing mention by Melissandre.  Who herself has shown to be someone with some level of clairvoyance but also someone who's vision of the future is partial at best.  Stannis being a good example of Melissandre being way off about something.  She seems magical, but also largely misguided by her own powers throughout her earlier appearances.  She seems to have recognized her missteps and in the last couple of seasons set to right the errors of her previous ways.  I think too much is made of her ability to see the future.  I've also assumed she can see shadows of what is to come, but nothing in full technicolour.  

Does it really matter if the Children of the Forrest are still around in the grand scheme of things?  They were mentioned only a couple of times.  Doesn't seem like something that needs much explaining when considering everything else the show needs to address.  I've always assumed they were destroyed by their own creation (white walkers) and left it at that.  As it relates to the cast of characters we've been following for eight years, it really doesn't matter.

The three-eyed raven has been explained in the show (see here for a recap).  A lot of what we think we know about him is likely just fan speculation.  The show itself has never really done much to suggest a deeper connection between him and the NK other than the fact that the NK is magical and as a result of touching Bran can sense where the three eyed raven is at all times.  Doesn't really seem necessary to see any greater connection than that.

What more do we need to know about the Crypts of Winterfell?  It's where dead Starks are buried.  Am I missing something?

----------------

It's not that the mythology surrounding what was north of the wall isn't interesting, but it's never been something that has driven the show other than provide a little bit of mystery.  I really don't think the show needs a Matrix 2 like reveal scene that explains all this stuff.  I get that if this were the books then there'd be an opportunity to flesh all of this out, but with so many players and the connections between the two, it feels like all of this stuff isn't really important in the grand scheme of things.  Again, there's a limit to what a show like GoT can tell given the logistical (number of seasons/episodes) and budgetary limitations.  I sometimes think fans get too caught up on this stuff (happened with the show Lost) and get distracted from the main story that the show writers and producers want to tell.  

Plus, as you mentioned, there's still three episodes left.  It definitely feels the show has turned the corner on the magical elements that were found north of the wall, but who knows, maybe Bran has more to say on the subject.  We'll see.  

 

[downzy]

2 hours ago, Nicklord said:

In one of the episodes (Hardhome I think) when they kill a White Walker all of his wights drop down too. So many characters had a weapon that could kill them. They could have Jamie and Briene kill a White Walker, then Jorah kill another one, Jon maybe gets another kill and then have a lot of dead people drop on the ground. They shouldn't have made this a massacre cause that way they cornered themselves and the only thing that could save them is a sudden death of NK. They shouldn't just sacrifice Dothraki at the start, better defense could've been made. Oil that could catch on fire. All of that stuff could've make this like a 70-30 win for WW that could leave enough room for humans to escape. There absolutely should've been a more meaningful scene with Bran and NK too. All of that is very Game of Thrones and this episode wasn't. This was just an epic fantasy battle with good guys fighting bad guys and at the last moment getting saved. 

About GoT characters suffering from their mistakes. They lost majority of their armies but that's not really a GoT suffering. Jon choosing Bran and not Sam is a thing that should have a consequence. That was a perfect moment for Sam to die and then Jon question himself later. Dany falling of a dragon should be either a death sentence to her or Drogon. Sansa and Tyrion should've died in those crypts, or at least one of them, they made a mistake of getting down there but they didn't really suffer from it. A bunch of nobodies and their army did. That's basic epic fantasy thingy that GoT from the very first episode is trying not to be. 

I do agree that the battle plan of sending the Dothraki horde out to mow down whigs was pretty foolish.  D&D kind of explain this in the Inside the Episode, where they remind us that nothing has ever stopped a Dothraki horde before, that it should have been a serious advantage for the human side.  The problem is that it's been awhile since viewers have been aware of that fact.  But in the context of what the Dothraki are capable of and have a history of doing to their enemies, it does make a bit more sense.  In the end, it really wouldn't have mattered.  We never really get a sense of how large the NK's army really is because they are cloaked by both night and the winter storm.  But that unknown helps, in my opinion, with the sense of dread and unknowingness that the human side had to have felt.  It's one thing to be outnumbered, it's another to not know by how much.  

In terms of taking out White Walkers, yeah, that would have been ideal.  But as Sunday's episode reveals, it's not something easily done.  The White Walkers held back and let their wights do all their work for them; we never saw one on the front lines.  How do you get through such a massive army to get to the White Walkers?  How would have Briene and Jamie got anywhere near them?  Jon tried with his dragon but was prevented from imposing any serious damage because of the storm.  I suppose you could have staked out a few fighters in the forest in the hopes of surprising them from behind or flanking them.  But even then it's unlikely (wouldn't the whigs come across them anyway?  White Walkers are pretty fierce fighters, as demonstrated in the Hardhome episode).  

And while I agree that the battle could have been easier for the human side if it were managed better by Dany and Jon, it would have felt anticlimactic if the NK shows up and is easily disposed.  I assumed the episode would go similar to how it ended up, but not to the same extent with respect to how devastated the human forces would get.  Plus the scene with Arya at the end wouldn't have happened if the human side had been better organized.  

I do agree that the show has changed a bit in that there's a sense of security around certain characters that was never present in previous seasons.  I do think Sam could have died and the show would have been better off for it.  As much as it felt a little forced, it wouldn't have made much sense for Dany to die at the battle for Winterfell and not explore the tension between her and Jon relating to their claims to the Iron Throne.  Plus, if Dany died, wouldn't the show be effectively over?  Jon has no desire to march south and I think Cersei would have likely been holding her positions and not eager to take on two dragons in order to recapture the north.  Dany needed to live for the show to answer the question it has asked from the very beginning: who will ultimately sit on the Iron Throne.  I do agree the show takes liberties to get the story to where it needs to go, but the cost is worth it in my opinion for the sake of telling a better story.  

[Basic_GnR_Fan]

The mistakes that the human side made in the battle made sense. Who do they have that is a an established military genius? It's not like they have Tywin with them. Isn't the closest they have is Jaimie, and he has never commanded Dothraki before. And they have very little information on their enemy. Why would we expect them to have some perfect strategy?

[downzy]

2 minutes ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

The mistakes that the human side made in the battle made sense. Who do they have that is a an established military genius? It's not like they have Tywin with them. Isn't the closest they have is Jaimie, and he has never commanded Dothraki before. And they have very little information on their enemy. Why would we expect them to have some perfect strategy?

Yeah, this occurred to me only an hour or so ago.  

Jon has only ever commanded in one battle, the Battle of the Bastards, and would have been wiped out if it were not for his sister's maneuvering.

Dany has won all of her battles due to sheer superiority and brute force, and dragons.  None of those advantages really mattered in this fight.

[Nicklord]

17 minutes ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

The mistakes that the human side made in the battle made sense. Who do they have that is a an established military genius? It's not like they have Tywin with them. Isn't the closest they have is Jaimie, and he has never commanded Dothraki before. And they have very little information on their enemy. Why would we expect them to have some perfect strategy?

They have a lot of information about the enemy except for their numbers but they know that those are big. They know fire kills them, so make more fire everywhere. Jaime should be an experienced commander. Not Tywin level but pretty much the best from the rest of the alive cast. He's here since the rebellion and has training since he's little. He attacked several cities before and he should know trebuchets shouldn't be in front of the infantry and other stuff like that

[Basic_GnR_Fan]

13 minutes ago, Nicklord said:

They have a lot of information about the enemy except for their numbers but they know that those are big. They know fire kills them, so make more fire everywhere. Jaime should be an experienced commander. Not Tywin level but pretty much the best from the rest of the alive cast. He's here since the rebellion and has training since he's little. He attacked several cities before and he should know trebuchets shouldn't be in front of the infantry and other stuff like that

Jaimie isn't even the one in charge. He's serving at the pleasure of Dany and probably isn't totally trusted. How do we know he wasn't overruled in the planning phase? Also, Dothraki horsemen are a purely offensive force. They probably have never even been in a defensive position in a battle before. They had to be used in some sort of offensive maneuver here. Other than the Dothraki, they had defensive obstacles set up, a fire trench, and soldiers in waves of defensive positions. Also, regarding having fire everywhere. You need a fuel source to sustain a huge fire. Do they have an unexhaustive source of fuel?

[Daedalus]

By the way... I think D&D said (in Inside the Episode) that Arya stuck the Valyrian steel into the same spot on the Night King’s body from when he was created by the Children of the Forrest. According to some cave paintings from season 7, "Night King" is shown as skeleton with beard - so not the same Night King as the "current" Night King?

[downzy]

Interesting military analysis of the battle for Winterfell:

https://slate.com/culture/2019/04/battle-winterfell-military-analysis-tactics.html

[ZoSoRose]

I guess my issues have been described a lot in here and other places like reddit 

Basically, all hope for the show died with this episode for me. Its become a show where the story exists only for the characters wheras it used to have the characters serve the story. For the past few seasons, it felt sort of lazily "assembly lined" to simply put the pieces into place. I was willing to forgive that if the finale would tie everything together. I doubt it will.

There are things about the writing that irk me. Last season's Beyond the Wall episode and entire Winterfell story with awful with writing that made no sense. I chalked it up to them rushing to set the finale up, but poor writing plagued this past episode. It ranged from "small" things ...like characters being surrounded by 100s of wights and simply being fine a few scenes later,  to having way less characters die, to having each character that did die get a drawn out and heroic sendoff, suiciding the Dothraki (also, they didnt know Melisandre was coming, they just had useless steel?), Dany landing the dragon when she did, not firing arrows when the wights paused, stopping the artillery after a few seconds, etc. All of that took me out of the episode. For sci-fi, action, and fantasy I am always willing to turn my brain off a bit and accept sone dumb writing and plot holes, but GOT has been stretching those boundaries for me.

Then the big issue is the White Walker story. It was a waste of time.  It was an 8 year build up to essentially one big battle in one episode, where most named characters walk away uninjured. There was zero payoff or story. A few second long throwaway lines and scene for the Walkers' backstory is so disappointing. Sure, zombies aren't that interesting , but I was expecting SOMETHING. Some twist or revalation that would tie this show and series together. There was nothing. The Walkers could have not even been in the show. What about Bran? You are going to introduce time travel and do nothing? He directly influenced the past with Hodor, and for what? He had nothing to offer. So he fucks around with Hodor and finds out about Jon (as did Sam)? Big whoop. His arc has been completely thrown away.

The human element show is extremely important, but since season 5, the series has deliberately focusing on the Walker storyline more. "Petty political squabbled dont matter, death is coming for all". That became the theme, and now the Walkers essentially got a couple hundred miles south and died in a day without any story payoff. What the fuck are D and D doing?

The episode is so frustrating for me. I was so hyped up for it. It had some incredible scenes and cinemetograohy coupled with some horrible writing and story direction. 

[AtariLegend]

5 hours ago, downzy said:

Jon has only ever commanded in one battle, the Battle of the Bastards

Actually there's the siege of the wall, where he takes over fairly early on. In the show there's also a battle where leads the nightwatch North of the Wall against the deserters.

Technically Beyond The Wall too for example.

Edited April 30, 2019 by AtariLegend

[downzy]

1 hour ago, AtariLegend said:

Actually there's the siege of the wall, where he takes over fairly early on. In the show there's also a battle where leads the nightwatch North of the Wall against the deserters.

Technically Beyond The Wall too for example.

Yeah, I realized that after my post.  

That said, those weren't traditional military battles like the Battle of the Bastards with calvary, infantry, and battle ground formations.  There wasn't a lot of strategy involved, more just fighting for ones life.  The Battle of Winterfell allowed for far more strategy and neither Dany nor Jon seemed adept in that respect.

It does seem strange they didn't rely on the expertise of people like Tyrion and Jamie.

The other big hole in the plot is Jon's inability to see why putting women and children in the crypt might not be the best move against an enemy who can literally raise the dead.  Then again, perhaps Jon assumed the NK needed to be in closer proximity or his magic didn't work through walls or something.  Regardless, seemed like a pitfall that could have been foreseen.  

[Nicklord]

Episode is 75% on rottentomatoes. The only worse is Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken. Pretty much the rest of them are all 90%+. On imdb it's 9.1 where literally all the rest big episodes are 9.8 or 9.9. That's not good for an episode that had SO much hype behind it

They have to put on a miracle to not ruin everything in the next 3 episodes. 

Edited May 1, 2019 by Nicklord

[downzy]

1 hour ago, Nicklord said:

Episode is 75% on rottentomatoes. The only worse is Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken. Pretty much the rest of them are all 90%+. On imdb it's 9.1 where literally all the rest big episodes are 9.8 or 9.9. That's not good for an episode that had SO much hype behind it

They have to put on a miracle to not ruin everything in the next 3 episodes. 

Are those scores indicative of the contents of the episode or are they reflective of the fact that there were many people who didn't have their televisions calibrated  properly and couldn't see squat?  

[Nicklord]

16 minutes ago, downzy said:

Are those scores indicative of the contents of the episode or are they reflective of the fact that there were many people who didn't have their televisions calibrated  properly and couldn't see squat?  

Don't know about imdb but rottentomatoes is about the content. Parts from the bad reviews:

This long awaited, much hyped, final showdown between the armies of men and the armies of death felt strangely anticlimactic. The bodycount may have been through the roof but the emotional impact was strangely AWOL.

Well colour me disappointed. After all these years, all this hype and two whole episodes of set up, today's episode fell a little flat.

Killing off the major villain without ever telling us his motivations seems like a turning point for a TV series that's more confused than ever about what it's trying to say.

It's a strangely unsatisfying conclusion to a story line that has sustained the show from the very beginning.

They were all bad. These were all bad scenes and none of them were pleasant.

[downzy]

14 minutes ago, Nicklord said:

Don't know about imdb but rottentomatoes is about the content. Parts from the bad reviews:

This long awaited, much hyped, final showdown between the armies of men and the armies of death felt strangely anticlimactic. The bodycount may have been through the roof but the emotional impact was strangely AWOL.

Well colour me disappointed. After all these years, all this hype and two whole episodes of set up, today's episode fell a little flat.

Killing off the major villain without ever telling us his motivations seems like a turning point for a TV series that's more confused than ever about what it's trying to say.

It's a strangely unsatisfying conclusion to a story line that has sustained the show from the very beginning.

They were all bad. These were all bad scenes and none of them were pleasant.

Rottontomatoes is kind of weird way to gauge the merits of something, no?

It's critical score for the first episode is higher than the second episode, yet almost everyone on here and people I know seem to have enjoyed the second episode more.

Let's not forget that Rottentomatoes gave The Last Jedi a score of 91 percent from critics, and a 41 percent from audience members.  

Plus, at least one critical summary did explicitly state the issue being related to the darkness of the episode:

"I know the night is dark and full of terrors, but does that mean the episode has to be so literally dark?"

EDIT: I was curious about some of the critical reviews and most that I pulled up through Rottentomatoes makes issue with the lighting, so not sure it's just about content.  Funny enough, the review from USA Today states that it makes sense to have the show end about the Iron Throne rather than about existential survival since that has been the driving force of the series, even though he felt disappointed about the battle itself (though, he seems woefully misinformed about what actually transpired; perhaps an issue with his television).  

[ZoSoRose]

Of all the things that bothered me, the brightness wasnt really one of them. Maybe they could have made it a little easier to see I guess

[ZoSoRose]

The episode is beong panned by many fans. My friends who are die hards also were very let down. My co-workers who are more casuals and just show watchers liked it.

Its okay to like the show in whatever capacity you want, but it is devisive. I know how people who disliked TLJ feel, now

[AtariLegend]

13 hours ago, Nicklord said:

Killing off the major villain without ever telling us his motivations seems like a turning point for a TV series that's more confused than ever about what it's trying to say.

It's a strangely unsatisfying conclusion to a story line that has sustained the show from the very beginning.

...But we know what his motivation was, he wanted to kill Bran, because he was the memory of the world or something??? Honestly should have just made something up, about wanting Gilly's baby instead.

Do they ever explain in the show why they can't climb over the wall or go around it? It's D/D 101, let viewers make up their own story and just go along with it.

I did enjoy this more than Endgame though. I had an idea of how both were going to end, but at least in this was a possibility that people were in threat.

Edited May 1, 2019 by AtariLegend

[downzy]

Interesting notes about stuff most people (myself included) missed about the Battle of Winterfell:

https://www.cnet.com/news/game-of-thrones-season-8-one-key-battle-of-winterfell-detail-you-missed/

 

[downzy]

On 2019-05-01 at 8:42 AM, ZoSoRose said:

I know how people who disliked TLJ feel, now

Except with TLJ, it was an outright dismissal of the film that came before it.  TFA had set the table and TLJ decided to undo or ignore everything.  That's not quite the same with what happened in The Long Night.  

I think it's legitimate for those who have soured on the show since season 5 to not hold the last episode in high regard.  But anyone paying attention to how the last few seasons have gone should have known what we were likely going to get in the Battle of Winterfell.  

I've read too many comments by people who are either conflating the books with the tv show or have clearly not being paying attention.  Many of the critics who panned the episode did so for reasons that don't really add up.  They ask questions like, "well, what was the point of the NK or what did he want."  What?  All of that was answered.  Either they weren't paying attention or weren't satisfied with the answers so far provided.  

I also wonder why people expected the battle to be something other than it was.  The human side gave everything it had (save for Cersei's army) and were routed by a force so large and unstoppable that it took someone like Arya to save the day.  I've read people complain that ending the NK and his dead army in the third episode is anticlimactic for the remainder of the season.  Here's my issue with that position.  One, really?  Was the NK and the White Walkers really the preeminent story line of the show?  Granted, it wasn't nothing, but far more attention has been paid to the battle over the throne than what was happening North of the wall.  Second, how else could the battle have been extended to subsequent episodes? Like I said, both sides brought everything they had.  Only one side was going to walk out intact.  There was only going to be one victorious side.  And anyone who has paid attention to the television show knows that they never extend these kinds of battles to more than one episodes.  Every large skirmish is contained within one episode.  

I do think more minor characters could have and should have survived to make it a bit more believable.  You're right that it doesn't make much sense that Sam, Greyworm, and others who haven't been central to the story could have been extricated from the show.  It defies logic that the human forces were left with maybe 5-10 percent of their forces and most of the known characters survived.  But I take no issue with the show sparing Dany, Jon, Tyrion, Jamie, the Hound, Arya, Sansa, and a few others for the sake of a better conclusion for characters we have been following for 9 years.  Those story arcs need to be resolved in their proper contexts and if they have to fudge things a bit to get them all there, so be it.  Because at the end of the day, the show would have sucked if most or all had died in the Battle for Winterfell and we're left with the NK taking on Cersei.  Realistic or not, who would really give a shit at that point.  There's no way we're not getting #Cleganbowl before this show is over.  Have the Hound ride a unicorn to King's Landing, I don't care.  The Hound doesn't even need to win.  But the show needs to (and likely will) make it happen.  Similarly we need better resolutions to the Lannister story and how Dany and Jon will figure out how and who will end up topping Cersei (if that does in fact happen).  I'd happily sacrifice some realism within a battle scene for a better conclusion.  

[AtariLegend]

32 minutes ago, downzy said:

"well, what was the point of the NK or what did he want."  What?  All of that was answered. 

It was? They mentioned the children of the forest created the white walkers, then came up with a vague line about wanting to kill Bran because of his memory (which never gets explained). The Three Eyed Raven is never explained in the show.

The Night King is a show invention. D/D created the character, because they wanted a face of the White Walkers. The source material specifically doesn't have that, because George didn't want standard fantasy fare destroying the ring and the armies magically vanish or Darth Vader.

The arya thing is retcon, they came up with themselves because they wanted to justify the show's silliness over the past few seasons. When she met Meslisandre in season 3, that was just because they wanted more material for the actress. It was a replacement for her meeting the Ghost of High heart in the books. They said themselves they never thought they'd get the show past the red wedding and George hadn't told them the ending or characters fates yet.

As for Jon yelling Go? Well, if D/D said that in another behind the scenes video that's something. Otherwise, why would Jon be distracting the Dragon, to help his sister run to another part of the castle and kill the night king? Seems more like this is something people on the internet have come up with to help justify it making little sense.

Also they retconned Valyrian Steel/Dragon Glass as something that kills wights instead of fire midway through the shows. The Dragonglass is supposed to kill white walkers, the white walkers actually don't do anything in this episode. The purpose of characters getting Valyrian Steel never comes into play.

Also the Dothraki that have followed Danny since the first season along with the unsullied, she literally lets them ride to their deaths for no apparent reason. Given there's supposed to be 100K of them. That Dothraki charge is literally the biggest loss of life in the show. Sure it was a cool scene seeing Jorah, the Dothraki and Ghost charge... but it made no sense whatsoever.

32 minutes ago, downzy said:

Greyworm

One thing of note for those that never read the books. They aged up Missandei in the show compared to the child she was in the books, just so they could have her do nude scenes. Then felt they needed to create a love story between her and Greyworm.

They also aged up Tommen in the show (this was not subtle between seasons) just, so they could write sex scenes for Natalie Dormer in the hope she'd get naked.

Don't get me wrong, both Natalie Dormer and Nathalie Emmanuel are beautiful women, but these were silly decisions.

32 minutes ago, downzy said:

 One, really?  Was the NK and the White Walkers really the preeminent story line of the show? 

The point of the story was to bring all the characters together to unite over a bigger threat. That's what the writer claimed in the original draft. The first scene of the show is the White Walkers, they're constantly in the background with everything building for years.

Ceseri being made the central antagonist is a show thing.

As for the Last Jedi, I thought it was a good film. My only negative feelings towards it is killing of Luke Skywalker for no reason and the media pretending it was the greatest film ever made.

Edited May 3, 2019 by AtariLegend

[downzy]

12 minutes ago, AtariLegend said:

It was? They mentioned the children of the forest created the white walkers, then came up with a vague line about wanting to kill Bran because of his memory (which never gets explained). The Three Eyed Raven is never explained in the show.

They mentioned a bit more than that.  The Children of the Forest created a White Walker (and while not spelled out, it's pretty clear that this first WW is the NK, since his death resulted in the death of all others) to kill the First Men, and hence by extension, that's exactly what the NK is still trying to accomplish.  That the children lost control of their own creation and the NK has spent all of this time marshalling and creating his forces to do what he was designed for is kind of implied at this point.  Not sure why we need to know much more than that.  

The Three Eye Raven is a Greensight, someone who can see events in the past, future and in present times from great distances.  Fairly sure this was covered in the show.  Again, I'm not sure what other explanation is needed at this point.  They never explained how Dany turned three dead eggs into dragons.  It's one of those things you just kind of accept.

22 minutes ago, AtariLegend said:

As for Jon yelling Go? Well, if D/D said that in another behind the scenes video that's something. Otherwise, why would Jon be distracting the Dragon, to help his sister run to another part of the castle and kill the night king? Seems more like this is something people on the internet have come up with to help justify it making little sense.

Yeah, it's likely possible this is just Internet chatter.  Though I do think the wind blowing through the hair of one of the White Walkers was the result of Arya making her way to the NK and Bran.  As someone pointed out in the comments section of that article, the wights appeared to be deactivated within the confines of the Godswood area with the WW standing behind the NK in a horizontal line.  It wouldn't have taken much for someone trained in stealth to get past them for one strike attempt.  Her training with Syrio taught her to be fast as a snake, quiet as a shadow, fierce as a wolverine.  It would appear she took those lessons to heart.

29 minutes ago, AtariLegend said:

Also they retconned Valyrian Steel/Dragon Glass as something that kills wights instead of fire midway through the shows. The Dragonglass is supposed to kill white walkers, the white walkers actually don't do anything in this episode. The purpose of characters getting Valyrian Steel never comes into play.

Was it ever established that dragon steel couldn't also kill wights?  They're very much zombies, with the ability to keep going despite severe injury or limb amputation.  Since dragon glass kills and Valyrian steel kills White Walkers, why wouldn't it also kill wights?

30 minutes ago, AtariLegend said:

Also the Dothraki that have followed Danny since the first season along with the unsullied, she literally lets them ride to their deaths for no apparent reason. Given there's supposed to be 100K of them. That Dothraki charge is literally the biggest loss of life in the show. Sure it was a cool scene seeing Jorah, the Dothraki and Ghost charge... but it made no sense whatsoever.

I sort of agree, but as D&D remind us in Inside the Episode, nobody had ever withstood the charge of a Dothraki horde.  It was suppose to be far more effective than it turned out to be.  Analysts by someone who knows military strategy actually defends the move, arguing it's less an error in judgement but more a low-odds gamble that clearly backfired.

36 minutes ago, AtariLegend said:

One thing of note for those that never read the books. They aged up Missandei in the show compared to the child she was in the books, just so they could have her do nude scenes. Then felt they needed to create a love story between her and Greyworm.

They also aged up Tommen in the show (this was not subtle between seasons) just, so they could write sex scenes for Natalie Dormer in the hope she'd get naked.

Don't get me wrong, both Natalie Dormer and Nathalie Emmanuel are beautiful women, but these were silly decisions.

Really?  This sounds like speculation than actual fact.  

36 minutes ago, AtariLegend said:

The point of the story was to bring all the characters together to unite over a bigger threat. That's what the writer claimed in the original draft. The first scene of the show is the White Walkers, they're constantly in the background with everything building for years.

Ceseri being made the central antagonist is a show thing.

I honestly don't think the show will play out with Cersie being the central protagonist.  I could be wrong, but I just don't see it being that simple.  

And I don't agree that just because the first scene of the show took place north of the wall equates the White Walker story has the driving force behind the show.  Far more time and attention is paid to the human affairs south of the wall.  Television shows grow and evolve over time to find the story it ultimately wants to tell.  D&D have focused on the relationships (particularly family) and their political ramifications on Westeros.  For me, that's the more important story line and would have no issue with the NK and his dead army being done with so we can focus on the characters and themes that have driven the show since the first season.   

 I was reading a criticism of the episode and I think the author made a key admission that I wish more fans of the books would acknowledge:

"But I have to wrestle with a simple fact: my disappointment stems not from the show itself, but because I have conflated what Martin is out to accomplish with what this TV adaptation is trying to do, and they're not the same. It's my own high expectations based on my love of the source material that are working against me. The show is its own creation now, no longer an adaptation but an evolution into its own type of high fantasy story. It's just one that's lost the complexity, subversiveness, and uncertainty of what made Martin's stories initially so compelling to me."

I'm fortunate to be unburdened by not having read the books.  So i don't have the kind of expectations that many book readers have with the television show.  I also understand the limits of what television products can do, especially with a story so sprawling as Game of Thrones.  My mother-in-law has read all the books and she's thankful that the show hasn't followed the books.  As she told me, there's almost an entire book on Brienne and she's still unclear as to why (as she states, it's not entirely clear why Brienne is all that important).  As I understand it, GRRM has a penchant to write various tangents that never really go anywhere and can drag the narrative down.

That isn't to say that the television adaption isn't without criticism.  But it seems too often in this thread and other areas on the web like some can't appreciate the show for what it is.  Even with its faults, GoT is still one of, if not the, best shows on television right now.  But you'd never get that impression from most of the comments around here.  There are some moments where you have to suspend disbelief, but all told, the last episode was still an amazing expose in narrative rhythm and execution.  

50 minutes ago, AtariLegend said:

As for the Last Jedi, I thought it was a good film. My only negative feelings towards it is killing of Luke Skywalker for no reason and the media pretending it was the greatest film ever made.

The entire plot of TLJ could have been avoided at the characters in the film stopped for five seconds and said, "hey, can we talk about this for a minute?"  If you think there are logistical issues and leaps of judgement in the Battle for Winterfell, you're probably best not to think of the massive plot holes that riddle TLJ.  In any event, I'm hoping JJ Abrams makes sense of the mess Johnson made by doing something cool with Luke's death (hence the name of the movie).  

[ZoSoRose]

1 hour ago, downzy said:

Except with TLJ, it was an outright dismissal of the film that came before it.  TFA had set the table and TLJ decided to undo or ignore everything.  That's not quite the same with what happened in The Long Night.  

I think it's legitimate for those who have soured on the show since season 5 to not hold the last episode in high regard.  But anyone paying attention to how the last few seasons have gone should have known what we were likely going to get in the Battle of Winterfell.  

I've read too many comments by people who are either conflating the books with the tv show or have clearly not being paying attention.  Many of the critics who panned the episode did so for reasons that don't really add up.  They ask questions like, "well, what was the point of the NK or what did he want."  What?  All of that was answered.  Either they weren't paying attention or weren't satisfied with the answers so far provided.  

I also wonder why people expected the battle to be something other than it was.  The human side gave everything it had (save for Cersei's army) and were routed by a force so large and unstoppable that it took someone like Arya to save the day.  I've read people complain that ending the NK and his dead army in the third episode is anticlimactic for the remainder of the season.  Here's my issue with that position.  One, really?  Was the NK and the White Walkers really the preeminent story line of the show?  Granted, it wasn't nothing, but far more attention has been paid to the battle over the throne than what was happening North of the wall.  Second, how else could the battle have been extended to subsequent episodes? Like I said, both sides brought everything they had.  Only one side was going to walk out intact.  There was only going to be one victorious side.  And anyone who has paid attention to the television show knows that they never extend these kinds of battles to more than one episodes.  Every large skirmish is contained within one episode.  

I do think more minor characters could have and should have survived to make it a bit more believable.  You're right that it doesn't make much sense that Sam, Greyworm, and others who haven't been central to the story could have been extricated from the show.  It defies logic that the human forces were left with maybe 5-10 percent of their forces and most of the known characters survived.  But I take no issue with the show sparing Dany, Jon, Tyrion, Jamie, the Hound, Arya, Sansa, and a few others for the sake of a better conclusion for characters we have been following for 9 years.  Those story arcs need to be resolved in their proper contexts and if they have to fudge things a bit to get them all there, so be it.  Because at the end of the day, the show would have sucked if most or all had died in the Battle for Winterfell and we're left with the NK taking on Cersei.  Realistic or not, who would really give a shit at that point.  There's no way we're not getting #Cleganbowl before this show is over.  Have the Hound ride a unicorn to King's Landing, I don't care.  The Hound doesn't even need to win.  But the show needs to (and likely will) make it happen.  Similarly we need better resolutions to the Lannister story and how Dany and Jon will figure out how and who will end up topping Cersei (if that does in fact happen).  I'd happily sacrifice some realism within a battle scene for a better conclusion.  

I disagree. This episode was a straight up dismissal of the story before it.

[downzy]

2 minutes ago, ZoSoRose said:

I disagree. This episode was a straight up dismissal of the story before it.

Really?  How so?  To the same extend that TFA teased Star Wars fans about the myth/lore of Luke and who Rey's parents were only for TLJ to shit on both proposition?  

[ZoSoRose]

1 minute ago, downzy said:

Really?  How so?  To the same extend that TFA teased Star Wars fans about the myth/lore of Luke and who Rey's parents were only for TLJ to shit on both proposition?  

Id say it was a lot worse for GoT. I mentioned why above, it changed gears halfway through. The show changed from being more about the personal relationships to being about the WW. They sort of explained them, but in quick and underwhelming ways. The season should have been more war like, with a big revelation tying this storyline together. They fought and died in one battle with zero payoff. What was Brans point?