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1983-1992: Timeline of the early line-ups

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6 hours ago, ludurigan said:

i disagree

Tracii Guns, Ole Beich and Rob Gardner were in "guns n roses" for 2 seconds

unless there is some evidence proving otherwise, they never wrote a song with/for/as GNR, never recorded a song with/for/as GNR, and played very few shows with/for/as GNR

not taking anything from them as people or players, but their contribution to Guns n Roses is absolutely irrelevant

You never heard Don't Cry with Tracii on guitar?

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19 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

You never heard Don't Cry with Tracii on guitar?

They even planned to release a picture disc EP with Don't Cry, Think About You, Anything Goes and Heartbreak Hotel. 

Edited by Sosso

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52 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

You never heard Don't Cry with Tracii on guitar?

yup, amongst some others. @ludurigan is wrong here.

we can easily argue that Ole Beich was largely irrelevant, and also Rob Gardner had probably only very minor influence (he has always been more like Tracii's sidekick than anything else), but Tracii's input is undeniable.

 

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They wanted to keep Rob in the band, but he left out of loyalty to Tracii. @zombux

Edited by Sosso

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2 hours ago, Sosso said:

They wanted to keep Rob in the band, but he left out of loyalty to Tracii. @zombux

yes, that's how I meant it :) I think this wasn't the first time this happened.

(edit: remember Tracii and Rob were members of Hollywood Rose at one point, albeit very shortly before the band disbanded in early 1985)

Edited by zombux

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1 hour ago, Sosso said:

They wanted to keep Rob in the band, but he left out of loyalty to Tracii. @zombux

How far back do tracii and rob go?. Did they kind of grow up together?.

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5 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

You never heard Don't Cry with Tracii on guitar?

Wow, exciting stuff. I don't think I have ever heard it. Is there a place where I can listen to it? Did Tracii had any help on the writing? The solo part at least? Does Slash reproduces any of his licks or any parts of the solo?

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5 hours ago, zombux said:

yup, amongst some others. @ludurigan is wrong here.

we can easily argue that Ole Beich was largely irrelevant, and also Rob Gardner had probably only very minor influence (he has always been more like Tracii's sidekick than anything else), but Tracii's input is undeniable.

 

Wow, exciting stuff.

I guess I have some catching up to do...

Can you talk about a bit about Tracii's input? I am completely unaware of that. Did Tracii helped on the writing of any songs? The solo parts at least?

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5 hours ago, Sosso said:

They even planned to release a picture disc EP with Don't Cry, Think About You, Anything Goes and Heartbreak Hotel. 

Did Tracii had anything to do with the writing of any of these songs?

To the best of my knowledge Anything Goes was written in Hollywood Rose by Izzy, Axl and Weber

To the best of my knowledge Think About You is an Izzy song

Don't Cry I am not sure who wrote it but I never ever heard any mention of Tracii as a co-writer

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16 minutes ago, ludurigan said:

Did Tracii had anything to do with the writing of any of these songs?

To the best of my knowledge Anything Goes was written in Hollywood Rose by Izzy, Axl and Weber

To the best of my knowledge Think About You is an Izzy song

Don't Cry I am not sure who wrote it but I never ever heard any mention of Tracii as a co-writer

That's why they erased his contributions when those songs were released on AfD, Lies and UYI I. 

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1 minute ago, Sosso said:

That's why they erased his contributions when those songs were released on AfD, Lies and UYI I. 

So did Tracii had anything to do with the writing of Anything Goes, Think About You and Don't Cry?

What contributions of Tracii were erased?

Has he or anyone ever talked about that in interviews?

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55 minutes ago, ludurigan said:

Wow, exciting stuff.

I guess I have some catching up to do...

Can you talk about a bit about Tracii's input? I am completely unaware of that. Did Tracii helped on the writing of any songs? The solo parts at least?

I don't think they ever talked about it in detail. But listening to the solo of Don't Cry I think it is obvious it was Tracii's making. I would say there are certain notes or note progression that Slash kept, but overall he made it very different, soulful and bluesy while Tracii's is faster and more metal.

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4 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

I don't think they ever talked about it in detail. But listening to the solo of Don't Cry I think it is obvious it was Tracii's making. I would say there are certain notes or note progression that Slash kept, but overall he made it very different, soulful and bluesy while Tracii's is faster and more metal.

That's great info.

So this version with Tracii solo is on that Raz video with GNR first interview, right?

I am gonna listen to it.

So would you say that Tracii helped writing the song?

Or has he just added the solo at the top of a pre-written song?

And Tracii's solo was later basically redone by Slash if I understood correctly?

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I'm not quite sure about this, because my memory is blurry sice I was talking to various people about the pre-AFD lineup of GNR, but I very vaguely remember, that the lineup was actually quite creative and much stuff was born back then.

on the other hand, Tracii probably didn't have much to do with actually writing Don't Cry, because the song was already played by Hollywood Rose on 31st December, 1984 - Tracii and Rob joined HR for that gig (Tracii Replacing Chris Weber), but I assume the song was written a bit before that.

copy&paste a timeline, made by @DieselDaisy and some others:

Quote

 

Rapid Fire

03.20.83 - Gazzarri's, West Hollywood, CA
notes: band is ''Bill Bailey'' (vocals), Kevin Lawrence guitar], Chuck Gordon (drums) Mike Hammernik (bass). Won ''Battle of the Bands''.

04.08.83 - Gazzarri's, West Hollywood, CA

04.29.83 - Gazzarri's, West Hollywood, CA

05.28.83 - Gazzarri's, West Hollywood, CA
notes:  Izzy turned up and poached Axl at this show. Both Axl and Izzy were wearing ''glam regalia'' so the writing was on the wall!

? - ?
notes:  private show

Edited May 12 by DieselDaisy
http://www.mygnrforum.com/topic/220035-guns-n-roses-first-ever-radio-interview/?do=findComment&comment=4565503


Joining the dots between the infos available on gnrontour.com, setlist.fm, Marc Canter's bible and the recently surfaced Raz Cue's interviews and infos, we gather the following on the early history of the band:

 


January to june 1984 - Axl, Izzy, Chris Weber, drummer Johnny Kreiss (and/or Johnny Krieff?) and bassist Rick Holland (and/or Rick Mars?) plays shows as Rose, later changed in Hollywood Rose (As Axl liked this monicker better) and they play the following dates (I'm not sure if the lineups here are always correct or not...fill in if you know more):

01.03.84 - The Orphanage, North Hollywood, CA
audio/video recording?: no
notes: This band is "Rose" - Axl, Izzy [lead & rhythm guitar], Chris Weber [lead & rhythm guitar], Johnny Kreiss [drums] & Rick Holland [bass].
From what we know, this is Axl Rose's first show in L.A.

01.17.84 - Troubadour, Hollywood, CA
audio/video recording?: no
notes: This band is "Rose" - Axl, Izzy [lead & rhythm guitar], Chris Weber [lead & rhythm guitar], Johnny Kreiss [drums] & Rick Holland [bass].
flyer

02.12.84 - Troubadour, Hollywood, CA
audio/video recording?: no
notes: This band is "Rose" - Axl, Izzy [lead & rhythm guitar], Chris Weber [lead & rhythm guitar], Johnny Kreiss [drums] & Rick Holland [bass].

02.23.84 - Gazzarri's, West Hollywood, CA
audio/video recording?: no
notes: This band is "Rose" - Axl, Izzy [lead & rhythm guitar], Chris Weber [lead & rhythm guitar], Johnny Kreiss [drums] & Rick Holland [bass].

audio/video recording?: no
notes: This band is "Rose" - Axl, Izzy [lead & rhythm guitar], Chris Weber [lead & rhythm guitar], Johnny Kreiss [drums] & Rick Holland [bass].

03.16.84 - Madame Wong's East, Los Angeles, CA
audio/video recording?: no
notes: This band is "Rose" - Axl, Izzy [lead & rhythm guitar], Chris Weber [lead & rhythm guitar], Johnny Kreiss [drums] & Rick Holland [bass]. Although the flyer says "Hollywood Rose" - this band is still "Rose" - Axl preferred the name "Hollywood Rose" and had these flyers printed.
flyer

04.01.84 - Troubador, Hollywood, CA
audio/video recording?: no
notes: This band is "Rose" - Axl, Izzy [lead & rhythm guitar], Chris Weber [lead & rhythm guitar], Johnny Kreiss [drums] & Rick Holland [bass].
flyer #1
flyer #2

04.20.84 - Madame Wong's East, Los Angeles, CA
audio/video recording?: no
notes: This band is "Rose" - Axl, Izzy [lead & rhythm guitar], Chris Weber [lead & rhythm guitar], Johnny Kreiss [drums] & Rick Holland [bass].


 

early june 1984 to august 1984 - Izzy and Chris Weber leave Hollywood Rose (Izzy to join London I guess!?!?), and Slash and Steven joins the band and they play their first show together on june 16 at Madame Wong's West (on this date the lineup was completed by bassist Steve Darrow - unsure if he played any show before with HR or this was his first one too!). (Izzy leaves almost a week before Slash and Steven joins, according to Marc Canter's book, and one of the disagreement between izzy and Axl was over the riff of a song Izzy wrote called Cold Hard Cash, which Izzy wanted to discard but Axl liked and wanted to keep)

with this lineup they play the following dates over summer '84:

 

06.16.84 - Madame Wong's West, Los Angeles, CA
audio/video recording?: no
flyer
notes: A Hollywood Rose gig.

06.28.84 - Madame Wong's West, Los Angeles, CA
audio/video recording?: no
notes: A Hollywood Rose gig.

07.10.84 - Troubador, Hollywood, CA
setlist: Shadow Of Your Love, Everything's OK, Reckless, Anything Goes, Rock N Roll Survivor (a song Slash wrote for Roadcrew and Axl added lyrics to), Rock N Roll Rose (a song Axl wrote after his first gig in LA), Back Off Bitch, Cold Hard Cash, Nice Boys, Hair Of The Dog
notes: I'm pretty sure that Marc Canter recorded the audio of this show, not sure if video too!
flyer

08.29.84 - Troubador, Hollywood, CA
audio/video recording?: no
notes: This was pre-GN'R.
flyer

08.31.84 - Shamrock Studios, Santa Monica, CA
audio/video recording?: no
notes: This was pre-GN'R.
flyer

 

 

In september 1984, for some uknown reasons, Hollywood Rose seems to disband, as Slash goes on to audition for Poison and Axl joins L.A. Guns, which plays the following dates:

 

oct 5, 1984 @ the troubadour (with Axl on lead vocals)

setlist: Bloodshot Eyes, Shadow Of Your Love, Nice Boys, If You Don't Love Me, Stick To Your Guns, Anything Goes, Heartbreak Hotel

notes: is this the first L.A. Guns show??? If so, Axl doesn not join L.A. Guns, but is indeed the original L.A. Guns singer!

Audio/video recordings: Marc Canter recorded this show!

oct 13, 1984 @ the troubadour (with Axl on lead vocals)

audio/video recording: i dont know for sure, but my sixth sense (and the pictures on his book) tells me Marc Canter recorded this on video!

nov 27, 1984 @ the troubadour

dec 1, 1984 - radio city

dec 22, 1984 - radio city

dec 31, 1984 - troubadour

jan 25, 1985 - radio city

feb 8, 1985 - country club

 

Now, we know for sure Axl played the two shows in october and then left, according to Marc Canter's book. Recordings of these two shows should exist and in the hands of Marc Canter. The rest of the shows, I guess Mike Jagosz took Axl's place, after the infamous Axl/Raz fights over something that either happened at the Rainbow or something. Around this time, the idea of Guns N' Roses is discussed between Axl and Tracii. This confirms that it was not a disagreement between axl and tracii to end this partenership in L.A. Guns (otherwise they wouldnt have formed guns n roses together just a couple of months later). If someone can fill in, or confirm this infos, please join in!

Meanwhile, Hollywood Rose played a new year's eve show, exactly 4 months after their known last gig! The lineup is unsure, but I guess it featured Axl, Izzy, Chris Weber, Steve Darrow? and a drummer...again, if you have any infos to fill the blank spaces, please join!)

 

12.31.84 - San Pedro, CA
audio/video recording?: no
notes: Supposedly Hollywood Rose broke up after this show (but they will apparently regroup for one last gig togheter...read on...)

 

Now, we've seen that in january and february of 1985, L.A. Guns were still playing shows in Hollywood, so Tracii and his bands were "active".

In the Raz Cue's interview video, at 1:59 mark, we see the flyer for a - so far - unknown gig that Hollywood Rose supposedly played on thursday march 7th 1985, at the Dancing Waters in San Pedro, CA, advertised on the flyer as "the band that refuses to die". This show I think its crucial in what will then become the first GNR line up. I guess this is the show that is listed in Marc Canter's book (but without a date). According to Marc Canter's book, Izzy, that had just left London and was looking for a band, booked this show and put up this line up comprising of various member of Hollywood Rose and L.A. Guns. This show also marked the premiere of Don't Cry.

 

03.07.85 - San Pedro, CA
audio/video recording?: no
notes: Hollywood Rose last gig, featuring Axl Rose, Izzy Stradlin, Chris Weber, Rob Gardner, Steve Darrow. It was the premiere of the song Don't Cry, written by Axl and Izzy


 

Very soon after this gig, something happened and L.A. Guns and Hollywood Rose finally merge in the first line up of Guns N' Roses, with Axl and Izzy (from Hollywood Rose), Tracii Guns, Ole Beich and Rob Gardner (from L.A. Guns – although, as we've seen above, Rob already played a gig with HR).

Their first gig is scheduled for march 26th at the troubadour (we learn from their very first interview, done on the night between march 21st and march 22 on KPFK in Hollywood, that this show was booked as a L.A.Guns show and then changed to a Guns N' Roses one). Ole Beich is advertised on the flyer for the march 26th show but actually he will never play live with the band as, being ready to record a rehearsal to air during the aforementioned interview, the band couldnt get hold of Ole, and Izzy decided to call a neighbor of his called Duff – who, by the way, had already crossed path with Slash and Steven a couple years before in RoadCrew). So this first interview was recorded just hours after the band recorded early versions of the songs "Think About You", "Don't Cry", "Anything Goes" (apparently Heartbreak Hotel was recorded too) at Willie Basse's studio. This recording exists and in the hands of Raz Cue.

With this original line up they played the following dates:

 

03.26.85 - Troubador, Hollywood, CA
audio/video recording?: no
notes: first gig billed as Guns N'Roses
flyer

04.11.85 - Radio City, Anaheim, CA
audio/video recording?: no
notes:
flyer

04.24.85 - Troubador, Hollywood, CA
audio/video recording?: no
notes:
flyer

04.25.85 - Dancing Waters Club, San Pedro, CA
audio/video recording?: no
notes:

04.27.85 - Timbers Club, Glendora, CA
audio/video recording?: no
notes: apparently there was an argument over a certain Michelle Young (of My Michelle's fame) not being put on a guest list by Tracii. That drove Axl mad at him!


05.11.85 – Radio City, Anaheim, CA

05.12.85 - Joshua's Parlour, CA


 

Apparently Axl had issues with Tracii and wanted to fire him after the timbers clubs show, but waited cause they had two more shows booked, but then he fired him right after the Joshua's Parlour show in may! Rob Gardner, being loyal to his friend and bandmate Tracii, left the group soon after! At this point Axl already knew he wanted to get Slash in the band, but he was playing with Black Sheep, a somehow more established metal band on their way to getting signed. Things get confusing now, as according to Marc Canter's book, Axl, Izzy and Steven went to see Black Sheep at the Country Club on may 31st 1985, trying to convinve Slash to join GNR. That would mean Steven joined the band before Slash, although any other accounts suggests either the opposite or that they joined together!

Anyway all lead to this:

 

06.06.85 - Troubador, Hollywood, CA
audio/video recording?: no

setlist: Reckless, Shadow of your love, jumpin jack flash, think about you, move to the city, dont cry, nice boys, back off bitch, anything goes, heartbreak hotel
notes: This is the first Guns N' Roses gig that included Slash & Steven. They joined the band on this date. Tracii Guns & Rob Gardener are in the flyer for this show! Marc Canter should have audio recordings of this historical first show!
flyer

Edited May 11 by nikki9
http://www.mygnrforum.com/topic/220035-guns-n-roses-first-ever-radio-interview/?do=findComment&comment=4565167

 

 

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1 minute ago, ludurigan said:

That's great info.

So this version with Tracii solo is on that Raz video with GNR first interview, right?

I am gonna listen to it.

So would you say that Tracii helped writing the song?

Or has he just added the solo at the top of a pre-written song?

And Tracii's solo was later basically redone by Slash if I understood correctly?

It is hardly for me to say how it went down. Maybe Izzy and Axl presented the rest of the band with a "finished" song and they just added bass, lead and drums. Or maybe it was a more collaborative effort where the other band members helped shape the overall song structure and vocal melodies. But this particular song is generally considered to be the work of Izzy and Axl, so I lean towards whatever input the other guys had was only about their own instruments and that Izzy and Axl came up with the chord progression, lyrics, lyrical melodies, etc. And when Tracii and Rob left, Slash and Steven could add their own version of drums and lead guitar. That being said, I do think I hear similarities between Tracii's and Slash's solos (although the playing style is very different), and in that case one might argue that Tracii definitely did help influence (but not necessarily write) the final version of the song. But it could just be my ears fucking with me :)

Regardless, and more to your overall point, Tracii and Rob were part of Guns N' Roses. They obviously both helped shape songs (by composing and adding their own instruments to them) but also recorded them and had them played on the radio. Unfortunately for them, these never ended up on any official releases, and when Slash and Steven came in, they were removed from the songs and replaced with what I am sure were much better parts.

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21 minutes ago, zombux said:

I'm not quite sure about this, because my memory is blurry sice I was talking to various people about the pre-AFD lineup of GNR, but I very vaguely remember, that the lineup was actually quite creative and much stuff was born back then.

on the other hand, Tracii probably didn't have much to do with actually writing Don't Cry, because the song was already played by Hollywood Rose on 31st December, 1984 - Tracii and Rob joined HR for that gig (Tracii Replacing Chris Weber), but I assume the song was written a bit before that.

copy&paste a timeline, made by @DieselDaisy and some others:

 

great info

this info you mention that "the lineup was actually quite creative and much stuff was born back then" is completely new to me

(and a bit confusing)

I always thought that most of the songs from these early GNR lineups (that didnt include Slash and Steven) were already written by Axl and Izzy on Hollywood Rose/Rose etc

And the rest of the songs that became GNR songs that we all know were written after Slash joined

This info is very surprising. I find it a bit odd because to the best of my knowledge Tracii, Rob and Ole are not credited in any GNR song and I never heard anyone talking in any interview about possible collaborations

Do you think they Tracii (and Rob and Ole) wrote songs with Izzy and Axl that were never properly finished/recorded? Or if they were finished and recorded they were never used and are completely forgotten and that no one knows about except them?

Or maybe Tracii (and Rob and Ole) helped to write any of the actual GNR songs we all know?

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32 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

It is hardly for me to say how it went down. Maybe Izzy and Axl presented the rest of the band with a "finished" song and they just added bass, lead and drums. Or maybe it was a more collaborative effort where the other band members helped shape the overall song structure and vocal melodies. But this particular song is generally considered to be the work of Izzy and Axl, so I lean towards whatever input the other guys had was only about their own instruments and that Izzy and Axl came up with the chord progression, lyrics, lyrical melodies, etc. And when Tracii and Rob left, Slash and Steven could add their own version of drums and lead guitar. That being said, I do think I hear similarities between Tracii's and Slash's solos (although the playing style is very different), and in that case one might argue that Tracii definitely did help influence (but not necessarily write) the final version of the song. But it could just be my ears fucking with me :)

Regardless, and more to your overall point, Tracii and Rob were part of Guns N' Roses. They obviously both helped shape songs (by composing and adding their own instruments to them) but also recorded them and had them played on the radio. Unfortunately for them, these never ended up on any official releases, and when Slash and Steven came in, they were removed from the songs and replaced with what I am sure were much better parts.

yeah @zombux just mentioned that don't cry was played by Hollywood Rose so it was probably written by Axl & Izzy (before Tracii)

so i think it probably goes like you said: "maybe Izzy and Axl presented the rest of the band with a "finished" song and they just added bass, lead and drums" and "whatever input the other guys had was only about their own instruments and that Izzy and Axl came up with the chord progression, lyrics, lyrical melodies, etc. And when Tracii and Rob left, Slash and Steven could add their own version of drums and lead guitar"

having said that, i can see that Rob and Tracii added their instruments/parts to Dont Cry, Anything Goes, Think About You and did recorded them. But did they actually helped on the writing/composing of of these songs?

Edited by ludurigan
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20 minutes ago, ludurigan said:

having said that, i can see that Rob and Tracii added their instruments/parts to Dont Cry, Anything Goes, Think About You and did recorded them. But did they actually helped on the writing/composing of of these songs?

No one (of us) knows, and it also comes down to how you define "writing/composing". I tend to credit everyone who adds instrumental parts as "writers" or "composers" of that song, but I suppose not everyone does and many or much more strict and will only add those that came up with the overall song structure/lyrics. Regardless, whatever they did add was later replaced by Slash and Steven (possibly influenced by it).

I think someone said earlier in this thread that Tracii was in Guns N' Roses for a very short time. I forgot to comment on that. He was actually there for 7-8 months.

Edited by SoulMonster
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2 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

No one (of us) knows, and it also comes down to how you define "writing/composing". I tend to credit everyone who adds instrumental parts as "writers" or "composers" of that song, but I suppose not everyone does and many or much more strict and will only add those that came up with the overall song structure/lyrics. Regardless, whatever they did add was later replaced by Slash and Steven (possibly influenced by it).

I think someone said earlier in this thread that Tracii was in Guns N' Roses for a very short time. I forgot to comment on that. He was actually there for 7-8 months.

Yeah, but it wasn't even a band for most of the time. It was intended to be a record label (similar to UZI Suicide). 

Please tell me about your involvement with Guns N'Roses.

TG: Ok, I'll try to make it as direct as possible. In the beginning Izzy [Stradlin] lived at my house, years ago. And he had Hollywood Rose with Axl [Rose] - that was their band. I never played in Hollywood Rose. And I had my highschool band and I was really looking for a cool name and I loved Hollywood Rose. And I had a girlfriend that had been calling me Mr Guns. One day me and Izzy were sitting in the living room of my house and I said 'L.A. Guns' and I made this Cheap Trick looking logo on a blank album cover, and I show it to Izzy and go 'What do you think of this for a band name?'. And he goes, 'That's great.' So that's been my band name ever since. So anyways, we had a little manager guy at the time and he hated our singer Mike Jagosz, so we fired him. So then I asked Axl to join L.A. Guns and he was in the band for about six, seven months, and then the same manager ended up hating Axl and he wanted to fire him. We're all living together at this point and Axl and I sat down and went 'What are we going to do?' So we both said 'Fuck that', and came up with the name Guns N'Roses which was going to be just a record label that we'd put singles out on.

Sadly that idea only lasted for about 10 minutes and then we decided to keep L.A. Guns going, add Izzy and call it Guns N'Roses. And that's it, that's the whole story. And then I lasted for about seven or eight months in that, and then Axl and I got into an extraordinary fight - and we had never argued ever in the past few years before. [Then] I just kind of went my own way.

What did you argue about?

TG: That fight stemmed from a girl named Michelle Young [of 'My Michelle' fame] not being put on a guest list at three in the afternoon before even sound check, and we did two shows after that argument and then I left. It just wasn't fun anymore. I was probably 19 then and I thought Great band, and I love these guys, but they're not worth the headaches.' Even at that age I didn't want to deal with it.

So when you were still playing with those guys, was the material made up of a mixture of L.A. Guns tracks as well as early Guns N' Roses material?

TG: Exactly. It's funny, no one's ever asked me that question before, but that's exactly what we did. It was a mixture of these heavier L.A. Guns songs and I had helped working on some Hollywood Rose songs, which were really the tracks that became Guns N'Roses songs later. It was cool because Izzy and I were very systematic about how we would play in the band together. It was really fun structuring the L.A. Guns and Hollywood Rose songs for two guitars. We'd spend a lot more time making two really different guitar parts and two different guitar sounds. More than anything it was an incredible experience. That's when I really learned how to play with another guy. Izzy's so talented - not like a real master and he's definitely not a shredder - but he's just got a brilliant brain for music.

Is it true that you wrote some of the famous Guns N' Roses riffs but were never credited for them?

TG: No, the reality of that is that anything from Appetite For Destruction and Use Your Illusion I didn't write from scratch. Anything that I was involved with for those songs was a combination of me, Izzy and Axl. But they consciously didn't use anything that I'd brought in from scratch because they didn't want to pay out; plus the stuff maybe didn't stick with what they wanted to do at that time. So I lay no claim to like 'Hey, I wrote 'Welcome To The Jungle' man, where's my money?' It's not like that.

https://thequietus.com/articles/04450-dr-rock-tracii-guns-interview-la-guns-nikki-sixx-poison-guns-n-roses

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9 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

No one (of us) knows, and it also comes down to how you define "writing/composing". I tend to credit everyone who adds instrumental parts as "writers" or "composers" of that song, but I suppose not everyone does and many or much more strict and will only add those that came up with the overall song structure/lyrics. Regardless, whatever they did add was later replaced by Slash and Steven (possibly influenced by it).

I think someone said earlier in this thread that Tracii was in Guns N' Roses for a very short time. I forgot to comment on that. He was actually there for 7-8 months.

I tend to see things similarly on"writing/composing".

I believe that whoever is playing/adding parts (or giving some sort of "talking input") when the song is being written usually should be credited with writing the song, specially drummers, who can be very helpful in a writing session in studio

i would not credit said musicians with writing the songs if said musicians are specifically being told what to do or are just following the rest with very basic and unoriginal playing.

I also think that whoever inserts melodies (even after the song is "written") that are important to the song -- and here i am specifically referring mostly to guitar solos that have a melody line -- should be credited with writing, because the guitar solo that has a melody line works for the song exactly like a vocal with a melody line

the 7-8 months thing is interesting. it could mean that Tracii had an input on things if they were rehearsing/playing/writing a lot and if Tracii was giving input on these pratices/rehearsal/writing sessions by helping write and arrange stuff

It could mean not much if they were not playing a lot on this period or if Tracii was not giving a lot of input

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14 minutes ago, Sosso said:

So when you were still playing with those guys, was the material made up of a mixture of L.A. Guns tracks as well as early Guns N' Roses material?

TG: Exactly. It's funny, no one's ever asked me that question before, but that's exactly what we did. It was a mixture of these heavier L.A. Guns songs and I had helped working on some Hollywood Rose songs, which were really the tracks that became Guns N'Roses songs later. It was cool because Izzy and I were very systematic about how we would play in the band together. It was really fun structuring the L.A. Guns and Hollywood Rose songs for two guitars. We'd spend a lot more time making two really different guitar parts and two different guitar sounds. More than anything it was an incredible experience. That's when I really learned how to play with another guy. Izzy's so talented - not like a real master and he's definitely not a shredder - but he's just got a brilliant brain for music.

Is it true that you wrote some of the famous Guns N' Roses riffs but were never credited for them?

TG: No, the reality of that is that anything from Appetite For Destruction and Use Your Illusion I didn't write from scratch. Anything that I was involved with for those songs was a combination of me, Izzy and Axl. But they consciously didn't use anything that I'd brought in from scratch because they didn't want to pay out; plus the stuff maybe didn't stick with what they wanted to do at that time. So I lay no claim to like 'Hey, I wrote 'Welcome To The Jungle' man, where's my money?' It's not like that.

https://thequietus.com/articles/04450-dr-rock-tracii-guns-interview-la-guns-nikki-sixx-poison-guns-n-roses

very interesting... i remember reading this interview before and the "brilliant brain for music" quote about Izzy was the info that called my attention the most

Still...

I am not sure I can see any proper Tracii songwriting contribution to GNR...

Anything Goes for example... If you listen to "My Way, Your Way" from Hollywood Rose it is very similar to the final version of "Anything Goes" from Appetite. The song is like 90% there. There are no real dramatic changes on the final song except Slash's solo who wasn't there at first

Don't Cry i have no way to say if Tracii added anything significant because I never listened to the early Hollywood Rose version

Same for Think About You, I never listened to any "pre-Tracii" version to know if he added/helped with anything

Fuck what to this day amazes me is how no one ever seems to ask these people if they kept tapes from these days

That would be the MAIN QUESTION i would ask Tracii (and everybody who has ever played with anyone from GNR): 

- Do you have any tapes from when you played with those guys? Anything? Rehearsals? Demos? Home-made recordings? Live shows?

How come nobody ever asks these guys about it?

It would be fascinating to listen to ANYTHING from these 7-8 months Tracii was in GNR

 

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31 minutes ago, Sosso said:

Yeah, but it wasn't even a band for most of the time. It was intended to be a record label (similar to UZI Suicide). 

It is trur the original intention, as claimed by Tracii, was for it to be a label, but we don't know how long that idea lasted and when it became a band. Maybe even the very next day? Tracii himself claims he was in GN'R for eight months. So at least he considers it a band from the very inception on October 31, 1984, until he left in May 1985.

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12 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

It is trur the original intention, as claimed by Tracii, was for it to be a label, but we don't know how long that idea lasted and when it became a band. Maybe even the very next day? Tracii himself claims he was in GN'R for eight months. So at least he considers it a band from the very inception on October 31, 1984, until he left in May 1985.

I tend to think of Guns N' Roses as a project from October 1984 til March 1985. GN'R became a band when Michael Jagosz left L. A. Guns and Tracii was in need of a singer. 

Edited by Sosso

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