Scream of the Butterfly Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 3 hours ago, downzy said: Apologies, I didn't see your previous post. People laugh at weird stuff all the time. Sometimes it's a reaction to feeling uneasy or nervous. Ever laugh at funeral? Personally, making jokes is the only way I can get through a tough time, particularly funerals. Everyone is different. Granted, I don't think these women are going to win mother of the year awards. I can understand leaving your kid at Neverland Ranch with Jackson in the late 80s or early 90s before the accusations. Parents probably assumed their kids would be looked after by the help and stay over in their own bedroom. But anything after that, particularly staying in the same room as Michael, is hard to justify. I have a pretty dark sense of humor but her laughter still seemed out of place, like she was breaking out of character. However, it did occur to me that she might be on medication to help her cope with the situation and that might explain the apparent lightheartedness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvanG Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 I thought the laughter was a bit weird too, but everyone is different. I've seen people laugh at funerals at the worst moments, doesn't mean they weren't upset. If they were all faking it, like some people think, I would have expected to see a lot more tears to make it more believable. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, downzy said: And can likely be had for $25 million. Which, if factoring in inflation, is less than what Jackson paid for it in the late 80s. One wonders why the Jackson estate or kids doesn’t buy it. $25-$30 million is chump change considering how much Jackson’s estate makes. The price has probably plummeted again after this documentary! The estate are still co-owners. The three children did do some renovation. They replaced the fairground stuff with a zen garden apparently, https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2316992/Michael-Jacksons-Neverland-ranch-restored-children.html Michael's older family didn't seem that interested in doing anything, turning it into a Graceland thing maybe (although there were rumours for awhile he'd be buried there), and allowed the place to fall into disrepair. Edited March 14, 2019 by DieselDaisy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 (edited) Quote Michael's older family didn't seem that interested in doing anything, turning it into a Graceland thing maybe (although there were rumours for awhile he'd be buried there), and allowed the place to fall into disrepair. Probably something to do with the fact that Graceland weren't a fuckin' pedos lair. 4 hours ago, DieselDaisy said: Neverland is up for sale if you have 30 million, a steal as the place cannot find a buyer. Buying such places isn't the hard part, its maintaining em, thats what cripples you. If I had decent money I'd buy something with a little class, rather than that glorified Californian golf course. I tell what dead celebs house I do like: Belonged to Oliver Reed before now. Edited March 14, 2019 by Len Cnut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 1 minute ago, Len Cnut said: Probably something to do with the fact that Graceland weren't a fuckin' pedos lair. Buying such places isn't the hard part, its maintaining em, thats what cripples you. If I had decent money I'd buy something with a little class, rather than that glorified Californian golf course. I tell what dead celebs house I do like: Belonged to Oliver Reed before now. Neverland reeks of sperm. Tissues everywhere apparently. (That is crude for me.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downzy Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 Unless they're a super fan, I would have to think that any future buyer of the property would have everything torn down and rebuild on the property. It would just feel weird to live in a house where there was a chance of what Jackson is accused of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downzy Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 15 hours ago, DieselDaisy said: The estate are still co-owners. The three children did do some renovation. They replaced the fairground stuff with a zen garden apparently, Yeah, I heard of some of the changes they made with respect to the fairgrounds. I was under the impression that some investment firm owned the property after bailing out MJ back in the mid 2000s, but I guess it makes sense that the estate still has a stake. Still, it's estimated that Jackson (or the estate) took in over $800 million in 2016 alone. With that kind of money coming in, why not keep it? Even if it takes a couple of million to maintain, they could probably turn it into a charitable organization (maybe not for kids) or something where they could get a tax right off while maintaining something that was so strongly associated with MJ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
action Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 (edited) 16 minutes ago, downzy said: Yeah, I heard of some of the changes they made with respect to the fairgrounds. I was under the impression that some investment firm owned the property after bailing out MJ back in the mid 2000s, but I guess it makes sense that the estate still has a stake. Still, it's estimated that Jackson (or the estate) took in over $800 million in 2016 alone. With that kind of money coming in, why not keep it? Even if it takes a couple of million to maintain, they could probably turn it into a charitable organization (maybe not for kids) or something where they could get a tax right off while maintaining something that was so strongly associated with MJ. maybe the jackson family knows more than we do? it always was in the back of my mind, how latoya jackson didn't have that great a relationship with her borther. found that a bit weird. but I haven't seen this video, and this puts it all in a new light jackson didn't have the best relationship with his sister janet either. I can't say he was on very good relationship with his brothers either. it all seemed a bit "off" there's fighting in families everywhere, but maybe there's something more to it. Edited March 14, 2019 by action Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downzy Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 5 minutes ago, action said: maybe the jackson family knows more than we do? it always was in the back of my mind, how latoya jackson didn't have that great a relationship with her borther. found that a bit weird. but I haven't seen this video, and this puts it all in a new light jackson didn't have the best relationship with his sister janet either. I can't say he was on very good relationship with his brothers either. it all seemed a bit "off" there's fighting in families everywhere, but maybe there's something more to it. In fairness to MJ here, I'm not sure LaToya is the best source for confirming the accusations. I believe she later acknowledged that her crooked husband put her up to it and apologized to her brother by the end of the 90s (which he forgave her, which, if I'm being honest, kind of seems suspect; don't think I could ever forgive a family member who accused me of something like sexually abusing children if I was innocent). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lame ass security Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 I haven't read all of the posts in this thread so sorry if it has been brought up, has anyone ever asked Lisa Marie Presley about these allegations? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 41 minutes ago, lame ass security said: I haven't read all of the posts in this thread so sorry if it has been brought up, has anyone ever asked Lisa Marie Presley about these allegations? I remember seeing pictures of them when they first got married, he looked like he had more bitch in him than her. I couldn't help but wondering what their shagging must've been like, doesn't bear thinking about Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lame ass security Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 16 minutes ago, Len Cnut said: I remember seeing pictures of them when they first got married, he looked like he had more bitch in him than her. I couldn't help but wondering what their shagging must've been like, doesn't bear thinking about Oh jeez, no doubt. That's an image I don't want to fathom.😄 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lio Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 46 minutes ago, Len Cnut said: I remember seeing pictures of them when they first got married, he looked like he had more bitch in him than her. I couldn't help but wondering what their shagging must've been like, doesn't bear thinking about He liked doing it standing and was squealing while doing it. (I only know that because a few days ago I looked up what her reaction was.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toroymoi Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 There is no question that Michael was abusive towards these boys, whether or not you believe that extended to sexual abuse is obviously an opinion, but I struggle to see how he treated and then abandoned them as anything other than abusive. To pluck these kids out of humble backgrounds, introduce them to his lifestyle, promise them the world, claim to be their close friend, tell them he loved them... only to then abandon them once they got a bit too old for him, how is that not emotional or even psychological abuse? As for my personal opinion, I do believe he sexually abused them. Just like was said in the Oprah interview, the grooming of the children and even the parents began long before they even met Michael; his celebrity, the image he projected towards the world, the adoration... it was surely intoxicating and unlike other celebrities, that's all there was about him (at that time). 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 Quote but I struggle to see how he treated and then abandoned them as anything other than abusive. To pluck these kids out of humble backgrounds, introduce them to his lifestyle, promise them the world, claim to be their close friend, tell them he loved them... only to then abandon them once they got a bit too old for him, how is that not emotional or even psychological abuse? Is he bound to adopt them for life though just because they were close for a period, thats a bit of a stretch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toroymoi Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 6 minutes ago, Len Cnut said: Is he bound to adopt them for life though just because they were close for a period, thats a bit of a stretch. No, nor did I say that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 10 minutes ago, toroymoi said: No, nor did I say that. No you didn't but you didn't present an alternative either which leaves it up to whoever reads it to speculate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazey Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 21 minutes ago, Len Cnut said: Is he bound to adopt them for life though just because they were close for a period, thats a bit of a stretch. Speaking of a stretch it was probably when their arseholes slackened off that he moved on to the next one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvanG Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 8 minutes ago, Dazey said: Speaking of a stretch it was probably when their arseholes slackened off that he moved on to the next one. That's just nasty, man... just nasty. Funny, but nasty... so nasty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 22 minutes ago, Dazey said: Speaking of a stretch it was probably when their arseholes slackened off that he moved on to the next one. He was all about fingers weren't he, I shouldn't imagine that particular problem would've occured. Unless he graduated to the bowlers grip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scream of the Butterfly Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 1 hour ago, toroymoi said: There is no question that Michael was abusive towards these boys, whether or not you believe that extended to sexual abuse is obviously an opinion, but I struggle to see how he treated and then abandoned them as anything other than abusive. To pluck these kids out of humble backgrounds, introduce them to his lifestyle, promise them the world, claim to be their close friend, tell them he loved them... only to then abandon them once they got a bit too old for him, how is that not emotional or even psychological abuse? Why is it an opinion whether to believe he sexually abused them whereas the story about how he abandoned them is something that cannot be questioned? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toroymoi Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 4 hours ago, Len Cnut said: No you didn't but you didn't present an alternative either which leaves it up to whoever reads it to speculate. The obvious alternative would be to not abandon them, or better yet, not make them emotionally reliant upon you in the first place. 3 hours ago, Scream of the Butterfly said: Why is it an opinion whether to believe he sexually abused them whereas the story about how he abandoned them is something that cannot be questioned? Well, we can see evidence of how he treated the boys and the luxuries he surrounded them with when they were the age he liked, the time he spent with them... we can also see when those boys fell out of favour, as he was pictured with other, younger boys and the other ones went unseen. As has been discussed, the sexual abuse took place behind closed doors, presumably with only the boys and Michael being witnesses to it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 Quote The obvious alternative would be to not abandon them Right, which is what I meant when I asked 'is he bound to adopt them for life?'. Because if not eventually he's gonna leave them surely? Which would amount to said abandonment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scream of the Butterfly Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 1 hour ago, toroymoi said: Well, we can see evidence of how he treated the boys and the luxuries he surrounded them with when they were the age he liked, the time he spent with them... we can also see when those boys fell out of favour, as he was pictured with other, younger boys and the other ones went unseen. Is that necessarily emotional abuse, though? Maybe they just grew apart. I think it's pretty normal that as children grow older the adult takes a step back. It would have been more bizarre if he had remained obsessed with one boy and refused to spend time with other boys. Besides, he did remain friends with some of them even as they grew up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post toroymoi Posted March 16, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted March 16, 2019 2 hours ago, Scream of the Butterfly said: Is that necessarily emotional abuse, though? Maybe they just grew apart. I think it's pretty normal that as children grow older the adult takes a step back. It would have been more bizarre if he had remained obsessed with one boy and refused to spend time with other boys. Besides, he did remain friends with some of them even as they grew up. You're talking about normality in reference to a man who sought out children to put in this position, and as he admitted himself, slept in the same bed as them. Nothing is normal about this situation from the jump. Abandoning a child, when you've made them dependent upon you (especially emotionally) and created a world for them, is indeed emotional/psychological abuse. That alone can damage someone in ways they may never realise. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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