Leaving Neverland, Michael Jackson Documentary, HBO

[PatrickS77]

2 hours ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

The whole idea that a seven year old boy would think to ask to sleep over in the same bed as a grown man is ridiculous to me. They just don’t think like that at that age - unless someone suggests it to them. 

I have an 8 year old daughter and a 5 year old son and if either of them came to me and said they wanted to stay over in the same room as a 30 year old man (or woman) I’d wonder what the hell had been said to them. 

My son is a huge fan of Lionel Messi, he idolises him. I think he’d love to meet him but I wouldn’t expect to hear him to start asking the guy if he can stay the night with him in the same room. 

Why don't they? What is better? Staying in an unfamiliar place in a dark room on your own or spending that time in the room with the guy who invited you and you had fun with the whole day. Children think different, obviously. They don't think that the other guy might be a child molester. So really, they don't think all that shit you think and think might happen if someone does that. You are looking at it from a grown up mind, but not from a child like mind. It is absolutely not unfathomable, that, instead of being sent to a room on their own in a place that is not their home, they rather want to spend more time with the guy who invited them and with whom they really hit it off with. And like Jackson said. It wasn't always him and a boy. Sometimes there were sisters and brothers and families there too. It seems like all of you people are lacking imagination, or well, imagination that is not out of a horror movie.

[PatrickS77]

4 hours ago, Len Cnut said:

No ones assuming the worst, just the logical.  The worst would be if he'd've fucked em killed em and ate em, sleeping with kids whatever way you hold it up, as a stranger, is weird.  PROPER weird.  And then when they start accusing you of fingering their bums you're about 70% of the way towards a convinced public and I'm not fuckin' surprised.

How about this, how about leaving peoples kids the fuck alone?  What part of that is complicated?  Just fuck off, leave other peoples kids alone, walk on the safe side of the street with this shit.  Listen, I fuckin' love kids, I see peoples kids in stores and on high streets and I think they're so gorgeous and wanna pick em up or say some shit to em but I don't, and thats pretty innocuous shit but I would never do that because of the way it would be percieved in this day and age, I love kids too, more than fuckin' adults, I get on with kids better than any other type of person but I don't go around doing that shit cuz its not fuckin' normal and would not be recieved well. 

How is that logical? The logical outcome of 2 people sharing a bed ending up fucking each other is not the logical outcome. It is a possibility, but certainly not logical.

Yeah. You don't do it because you know how it looks and are concerned with what other people might think. Jackson apperantly didn't. Even though in later years he said, he slept on the floor while the kids slept on the bed, sometimes even with another person present.

Edited March 18, 2019 by PatrickS77

[PatrickS77]

2 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

I think only someone with limited experience with kids would think a child would be sò enthralled with a persons' appeal, fame and fortune (!) that they'd go, "can I sleep in your bed"?

According to him, he liked childrens presence because they didn't care so much about his appeal, fame and fortune, while others always ended up wanting something from him. Well, that clearly wasn't true in Robson's and Safechuck's case though.

[Len Cnut]

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How is that logical? The logical outcome of 2 people sharing a bed ending up fucking each other is not the logical outcome. It is a possibility, but certainly not logical.

Logical thats its wholly inappropriate and shouldn't be done.

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Yeah. You don't do it because you know how it looks

Fuck yes, thats and the fact that if something is considered inappropriate there's usually a reason behind that shit.

 

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and are concerned with what other people might think.

Fuck yes I'm concerned what people think.  Cops, courts, judges, society on the whole, pedo is the last thing in the world I would like to be considered by the world at large.

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Jackson apperantly didn't

Explain the Chandler pay off then?

[PatrickS77]

2 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

I wasn't discussing whether they were molested. I was discussing whether a kid would express a desire to sleep in the bed with an adult that is not the kid's parent. And you were too, until you decided not to.

And really. Can we just drop the "bed". There is too much emphasis on "bed" and "sleeping with". Robson asked to stay in Michael's room. That he ended up on the bed, since well, apparently there was only one bed, really is beside the point. So yes. The kid probably might not have said, "Can I stay in your bed?" but very well might have said "Can I stay in your room?".

Edited March 18, 2019 by PatrickS77

[PatrickS77]

3 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

Explain the Chandler pay off then?

What do you want me to explain. They wanted money, they got money. The civil case got dropped and Jackson could live somewhat in peace (with a tarnished reputation, but still). End of story.

[Len Cnut]

10 minutes ago, PatrickS77 said:

What do you want me to explain. They wanted money, they got money. The civil case got dropped and Jackson could live somewhat in peace (with a tarnished reputation, but still). End of story.

So apparently he does care what people think.  A fair few million quids worth of caring.

[PatrickS77]

Just now, Len Cnut said:

So apparently he does care what people think.  A fair few million quids worth of caring.

He cared not to loose his life. He cared not to have a civil trial unfairly influence a potential criminal trial that could have put him behind bars. Had he truly cared about what people think, settling this civil case would have not been the right answer.

[Len Cnut]

11 minutes ago, PatrickS77 said:

He cared not to loose his life. He cared not to have a civil trial unfairly influence a potential criminal trial that could have put him behind bars. Had he truly cared about what people think, settling this civil case would have not been the right answer.

OR...he thought the quicker it was swept under the carpet the better?  How would he lose his life?  The purpose of fighting for justice is not limited to a personal interest in public opinion.

[Lio]

29 minutes ago, PatrickS77 said:

Yeah. You don't do it because you know how it looks and are concerned with what other people might think.

You know why it looks that way? Because thanks to horrible paedophiles people are more scared. My country changed forever after Dutroux, to the point where fathers were sometimes hesitant to take a bath with their own kids, or indeed let them sleep with them in their bed. I can imagine the whole Jackson thing having an impact as well. I would hope no parent would be so dumb/naive to deliver their kids to a complete stranger, and one who is really weird as well, and a damaged human being, by all accounts.

It's not about being imaginative. It's not as if we've never dealt with kids. We've been kids ourselves, we have kids, cousins etc. We know it's not normal for any kid to want to sleep with a stranger, or hang out with them solely all day trying to avoid the parents. It's wrong.

[Len Cnut]

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My country changed forever after Dutroux

I just googled Dutroux...what the fuck!!!!!!!

[DieselDaisy]

Has anyone else bothered to watch the documentary besides myself? 

[Len Cnut]

16 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Has anyone else bothered to watch the documentary besides myself? 

No because no one wants to hear four hours worth of Jacko fingering bumholes   Actually loads of people have on here, Downzy has at least.  Whats interesting to talk about on here isn't always something you'd care to commit hours of your life to.  Like Chi Dem or a GnR gig,

[DieselDaisy]

Just now, Len Cnut said:

No because no one wants to hear four hours worth of Jacko fingering bumholes   Actually loads of people have on here, Downzy has at least.  Whats interesting to talk about on here isn't always something you'd care to commit hours of your life to.  Like Chi Dem or a GnR gig,

The people active in this discussion now.

It is just there wouldn't be such an emphasis on ''Michael's bed'' if they had watched it, and people would actually understood just how some of these children did ask to sleep with Michael. And it is alright judging what your child would or would not do, or you would or would not do, but even the flimsiest look at the parents of the four main alleged victims will tell you they're not exactly ''parent of the year''. All this is in the actual documentary. 

 

[Len Cnut]

When someone says a slasher movie is graphic we all come in droves, a pedo documentary, uh, not so much.

[Lio]

49 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

The people active in this discussion now.

It is just there wouldn't be such an emphasis on ''Michael's bed'' if they had watched it, and people would actually understood just how some of these children did ask to sleep with Michael. And it is alright judging what your child would or would not do, or you would or would not do, but even the flimsiest look at the parents of the four main alleged victims will tell you they're not exactly ''parent of the year''. All this is in the actual documentary. 

 

We have watched it, but someone mentioned having a kid sleep in his bed is not so bad or whatever. We're all aware that that wasn't the only thing. In fact, I mentioned the disappearing all day in Neverland and leaving Wade's mum alone. But people are suggesting all that may be fake, so we were discussing the thing we are certain of without a doubt, namely he liked sleeping with young boys in his bed.

[downzy]

On 2019-03-16 at 3:11 PM, PatrickS77 said:

And yet he looks like a schoolboy being schooled by his teacher, when he comes across someone, who doesn't  fall for his bs:

As for Jason. Just read the court transcript. No one really believed him about the molestation. He was talking about being tickled and at one point admitting to anything, just so investigators would stop their questioning and let him leave back in '93.

Because if anyone knows BS, it's Pierce Morgan, lol.

It's abundantly clear that Morgan never watched the documentary.  Just like yourself and many MJ defenders, many of the questions raised are answered in the film.  You can choose to believe or disbelieve, but let's stop the pretence of asking questions that the film provides explanations to.

No one believes Jason?  Really?  And you know this because?  And he was paid off by Jackson for tickling?  Wow, must have been some aggressive tickling.  

 

[action]

culkin claims to have slept "no more than 10 times with MJ in his bed", but he claims nothing else happened

don't think that has been addressed yet.

it doesnt matter. Latoya's stories about jackson are the deciding factor here, as far as I'm concerned. As a sister, you don't say such horrible things about your brother. She also confirmed her story in her book. I have a sister myself; to me such behaviour is unthinkable without there being some truth to it.

Latoya's story, more than anything else, to me is what made me go from sceptic to believer

[downzy]

On 2019-03-16 at 3:07 PM, PatrickS77 said:

Well, the prize tag hasn't been disputed by either side. This number is so outragous, one would think it would get disputed if false, since it hurts the credibility of the accusers. Until that happens I'm asuming it's true.

Um. Yes. It's even in the mockumentary. Robson asked to stay in Michael's room. And really, no one knows how it came about in each and every situation, so I refrain from really judging that.

Actually, the dollar amount has been disputed:

https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/source-wade-robson-not-asking-for-much-money-in-sex-abuse-claims-against-michael-jackson

If the $1.5 billion is accurate, then why didn't Pierce Morgan reference it in his interview with Reed?  Instead he says hundreds of millions.

Moreover, I'm still not sure why seeking financial restitution is proof to the invalidity of their claims.  Say it is $1.5 billion.  You do realize it's a common lawyer tactic to ask for the maximum and then come to a much lower figure.  This is basic negotiating strategy.  Similarly, if you were sexually abused, wouldn't you want financial restitution?  Since Jackson is dead and can't be charged criminally, shouldn't his supposed victims seek restitution in any way they can?  I've never understood this kind of attack on victims of sexual assault when they launch civil litigations.  If I were in their shoes I'd want to take them to the cleaners.   

As for Wade asking to sleep in Jackson's bedroom, I don't recall him asking him to sleep in Jackson's bed.  Regardless, it's one case.  I don't recall in any of the other allegations of children asking to sleep with Jackson in his bed until once he had them under his control.  Moreover, if this is something you want to argue about it's kind of indicative of the extent one has to go to defend Jackson.  "Yes sleeping with kids is weird as fuck, but not for someone like Jackson, because he never had a childhood of his own."  Seriously, people sound like morons when they utter this nonsense.  I know a lot of people who had their childhoods taken from them at young ages.  None of them feels the need to make up for it by sleeping with other children.  

[MillionsOfSpiders]

2 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

The people active in this discussion now.

It is just there wouldn't be such an emphasis on ''Michael's bed'' if they had watched it, and people would actually understood just how some of these children did ask to sleep with Michael. And it is alright judging what your child would or would not do, or you would or would not do, but even the flimsiest look at the parents of the four main alleged victims will tell you they're not exactly ''parent of the year''. All this is in the actual documentary. 

 

I watched all of the documentary and I’m still of the opinion that the kids wouldn’t have been there in the first place if he didn’t put the idea into their heads. 

The way I see it is they were manipulated into thinking the way they did and wanting to spend the night with him away from their parents. 

I also think the parents are shitbags - they saw an opportunity for themselves to have nice things and put that before their own child’s welfare. 

[DieselDaisy]

1 hour ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

I watched all of the documentary and I’m still of the opinion that the kids wouldn’t have been there in the first place if he didn’t put the idea into their heads. 

The way I see it is they were manipulated into thinking the way they did and wanting to spend the night with him away from their parents. 

I also think the parents are shitbags - they saw an opportunity for themselves to have nice things and put that before their own child’s welfare. 

Well it depends on how you define manipulation. Somebody of a cynical persuasion who solely views paedophilia punitively and who has accepted Leaving Neverland's claims, could say that Michael Jackson's entire persona, his feminine voice, Neverland, his charity work - certainly his marriage to Lisa Marie Presley - was a thorough media construct and an exercise in manipulation. 

As Wade Robson said on the Oprah thing: ''we were groomed before we met him''.

 

Edited March 18, 2019 by DieselDaisy

[downzy]

Came across this Vanity Fair article that sums up some of the findings from the various police reports:

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2019/03/10-undeniable-facts-about-the-michael-jackson-sexual-abuse-allegations?fbclid=IwAR1Eye-HeTwzHiwW_lmqfl_if0MpzylrE96No2Pv6ffW9jhj2G5koM7_DkU

1. There is no dispute that, at age 34, Michael Jackson slept more than 30 nights in a row in the same bed with 13-year-old Jordie Chandler at the boy’s house with Chandler’s mother present. He also slept in the same bed with Jordie Chandler at Chandler’s father’s house. The parents were divorced.

2. So far, five boys Michael Jackson shared beds with have accused him of abuse: Jordie Chandler, Jason Francia, Gavin Arvizo, Wade Robson, and Jimmy Safechuck. Jackson had the same nickname for Chandler and Arvizo: “Rubba.” He called Robson “Little One” and Safechuck “Applehead.”

3. Jackson paid $25 million to settle the Chandlers’ lawsuit, with $18 million going to Jordie, $2.5 million to each of the parents, and the rest to lawyers. Jackson said he paid that sum to avoid something “long and drawn out.” Francia also received $2.4 million from Jackson.

4. Michael Jackson suffered from the skin discoloration disease vitiligo. Jordie Chandler drew a picture of the markings on the underside of Jackson’s penis. His drawings were sealed in an envelope. A few months later, investigators photographed Jackson’s genitalia. The photographs matched Chandler’s drawings.

5. The hallway leading to Jackson’s bedroom was a serious security zone covered by video and wired for sound so that the steps of anyone approaching would make ding-dong sounds.

6. Jackson had an extensive collection of adult erotic material he kept in a suitcase next to his bed, including S&M bondage photos and a study of naked boys. Forensic experts with experience in the Secret Service found the fingerprints of boys alongside Jackson’s on the same pages. Jackson also had bondage sculptures of women with ball gags in their mouths on his desk, in full view of the boys who slept there.

7. According to the Neverland staff interviewed by the Santa Barbara authorities, no one ever saw or knew of a woman spending the night with Michael Jackson, including his two spouses, Debbie Rowe or Lisa Marie Presley. Rowe, the mother of two of Jackson’s children, made it clear to the Santa Barbara authorities that she never had sex with Jackson.

8. The parents of boys Jackson shared beds with were courted assiduously and given myriad expensive gifts. Wade Robson’s mother testified in the 2005 trial that she funneled wages through Jackson’s company and was given a permanent resident visa. Jimmy Safechuck’s parents got a house. Jordie Chandler’s mother got a diamond bracelet.

9. Two of the fathers of those who have accused Jackson, Jordie Chandler and Wade Robson, committed suicide. Both were estranged from their sons at the time.

10. In a 2002 documentary, Living with Michael Jackson, Jackson told Martin Bashir there was nothing wrong with sharing his bed with boys.

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It should be noted that Corey Feldman has stated that while he was never abused, Jackson did show him pornographic materials while he was a minor.  

This article by CNN during the 2005 trial covers the forensic evidence collected with respect to the porn at Jackson's property:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/25/jackson.trial/?fbclid=IwAR2-YxNU7Vb-s66qyF6vv1m4947V4NGOhGw_LgkvoShZy4TVZ0l4LvGJYsI

[Scream of the Butterfly]

I have to disagree with the people who find it inherently wrong and abusive that anyone would share a bed with a child. In my world, it's perfectly normal that children sleep in the same bed with their parents or any other trusted adult. I've known children who continued co-sleeping all the way to their early teens. As far as I can tell it did no harm. A child sharing a bed with a total stranger of course wouldn't be considered normal under most circumstances. The families of the alledged victims have said Jackson was like family to them so rightly or wrongly he wasn't perceived as a stranger.

[Dazey]

25 minutes ago, Scream of the Butterfly said:

I have to disagree with the people who find it inherently wrong and abusive that anyone would share a bed with a child. In my world, it's perfectly normal that children sleep in the same bed with their parents or any other trusted adult. I've known children who continued co-sleeping all the way to their early teens. As far as I can tell it did no harm. A child sharing a bed with a total stranger of course wouldn't be considered normal under most circumstances. The families of the alledged victims have said Jackson was like family to them so rightly or wrongly he wasn't perceived as a stranger.

Bollocks!

[downzy]

29 minutes ago, Scream of the Butterfly said:

A child sharing a bed with a total stranger of course wouldn't be considered normal under most circumstances.

Sorry, but what?  Under what circumstances would a child sharing a bed with a total stranger be considered normal?

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The families of the alledged victims have said Jackson was like family to them so rightly or wrongly he wasn't perceived as a stranger.

I believe that's evidence of poor parenting, not of it being okay.