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Leaving Neverland, Michael Jackson Documentary, HBO


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2 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Of course you know how every kid who has ever existed would behave as your arrogance is astonishing.

*sigh*

"Maybe my kids are just more sensible? Maybe there is a huge variation here from kid to kid? Maybe American kids are more blue-eyed or don't see the difference between other kids and grownups? Maybe the kids Jackson had were younger than 6?"

And cue another of your ad hominem attacks.

And again, I am not talking about "this issue", I am talking about the idea that kids would ask to sleep in the beds of adults who are not their parents.

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5 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

*sigh*

"Maybe my kids are just more sensible? Maybe there is a huge variation here from kid to kid? Maybe American kids are more blue-eyed or don't see the difference between other kids and grownups? Maybe the kids Jackson had were younger than 6?"

And cue another of your ad hominem attacks.

You are the one who keeps making assumptions about my personal life whereas a/ I have revealed very little of my personal life to you and b/ have no desire to reveal my personal life to you. In lieu of that, you therefore can not possibly know anything about my experience of children.

Edited by DieselDaisy
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2 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

You are the one who keeps making assumptions about my personal life whereas a/ I have revealed very little of my personal life to you and b/ have no desire to reveal my personal life to you. In lieu of that, you therefore can not possibly know anything about my experience of children.

This thread alone and your argumentation in favor of kids asking to sleep in Jackson's bed, implies you don't have a lot of experience with children :shrugs:

But since this seems to be a sore point for you then I will allow for the possibility that you could have some experience with kids despite your demonstrated ignorance of child behavior. Don't know how that makes it better for you, though.

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in a thread where everyone acts like some kind of sherlock holmes (me included) regarding the jackson case, it's easy to take it further and start making assumptions of the lives of the people of this board.

I guess people just like to make assumptions about other people. but this can sometimes be used as a putdown and is hurting the debate. I'm not saying this has happened on here, but I can see subtle traces of it and it makes me feel a bit uncomfortable to engage in the discussion myself. This is of course a delicate subject, but let's not start ridiculing other people for their opinions? could that be an option? there is nothing more annoying than people responding with ":lol:" emoticons followed by cliché putdowns, in response to posts that may be a bit "daring" and outside of the comfort zone of the general consensus, but which actually make some good points regardless.

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5 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

This thread alone and your argumentation in favor of kids asking to sleep in Jackson's bed, implies you don't have a lot of experience with children :shrugs:

But since this seems to be a sore point for you then I will allow for the possibility that you could have some experience with kids despite your demonstrated ignorance of child behavior. Don't know how that makes it better for you, though.

You keep creating these scenarios of a kid meeting Michael for the first time and saying, ''can I sleep in your bed'', and insinuating that I believe this scenario to be possible. If that is your argument it is a straw man. Even the briefest of looks at the Jackson allegations will see that relations consisted of a gradual escalation of intimacy. 

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1 minute ago, action said:

in a thread where everyone acts like some kind of sherlock holmes (me included) regarding the jackson case, it's easy to take it further and start making assumptions of the lives of the people of this board.

I guess people just like to make assumptions about other people. but this can sometimes be used as a putdown and is hurting the debate. I'm not saying this has happened on here, but I can see subtle traces of it and it makes me feel a bit uncomfortable to engage in the discussion myself. This is of course a delicate subject, but let's not start ridiculing other people for their opinions? could that be an option? there is nothing more annoying than people responding with ":lol:" emoticons followed by cliché putdowns, in response to posts that may be a bit "daring" and outside of the comfort zone of the general consensus, but which actually make some good points regardless.

What's daring? Saying it's not wrong to sleep with kids? I'm sorry, but I can't help but :lol: at that.

I understand what Diesel is saying, but the whole debate about sleeping with strangers (in general) was raised by someone and so it is kind of a separate debate from the specific MJ case imo.

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4 minutes ago, action said:

in a thread where everyone acts like some kind of sherlock holmes (me included) regarding the jackson case, it's easy to take it further and start making assumptions of the lives of the people of this board.

I guess people just like to make assumptions about other people. but this can sometimes be used as a putdown and is hurting the debate. I'm not saying this has happened on here, but I can see subtle traces of it and it makes me feel a bit uncomfortable to engage in the discussion myself. This is of course a delicate subject, but let's not start ridiculing other people for their opinions? could that be an option? there is nothing more annoying than people responding with ":lol:" emoticons followed by cliché putdowns, in response to posts that may be a bit "daring" and outside of the comfort zone of the general consensus, but which actually make some good points regardless.

Soul even contacted what he believed to be my Alma Mater (it wasn't) in order to prove some point, an actual lecturer via messenger!

It was creepier than Michael Jackson come to think about it.

(Probably supports my decision to shy away from discussing my private life to be honest).

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1 minute ago, Lio said:

What's daring? Saying it's not wrong to sleep with kids? I'm sorry, but I can't help but :lol: at that.

I understand what Diesel is saying, but the whole debate about sleeping with strangers (in general) was raised by someone and so it is kind of a separate debate from the specific MJ case imo.

wouldn't you agree that basically, every post that is followed by an ":lol:" has been, by the response itself, proven to be "daring"

my post invokes feelings of ":lol:" to you. Your post invokes feeling of annoyance to me. But I'm not seasoning my post with a hypothetical annoyance emoticon. I'm not sure if even there is one. Maybe this one "<_<"? well, it doesn't matter. I always try to respect my debating partner.

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1 minute ago, action said:

wouldn't you agree that basically, every post that is followed by an ":lol:" has been, by the response itself, proven to be "daring"

my post invokes feelings of ":lol:" to you. Your post invokes feeling of annoyance to me. But I'm not seasoning my post with a hypothetical annoyance emoticon. I'm not sure if even there is one. Maybe this one "<_<"? well, it doesn't matter. I always try to respect my debating partner.

You can emoji me anything, though I have a particular dislike of the following ones: :rolleyes:-_-:rofl-lol:

:)

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24 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Soul even contacted what he believed to be my Alma Mater (it wasn't) in order to prove some point, an actual lecturer via messenger!

It was creepier than Michael Jackson come to think about it.

(Probably supports my decision to shy away from discussing my private life to be honest).

Haha, what was that all about? Probably contacted an actual historian after you said something ludicrous. 

Anyway, if you say something silly about children then it is only reasonable that people assume you have limited experience with them. You cannot engage in discussions and think your arguments don't allow people to form an opinion of you. You do the same yourself. 

Again: kids normally have no desire to sleep in the beds of adults, except when in need of comfort from their parents, regardless of the level of fame and fortune that persom may wield. Not even adults that are their good friends or relatives. When they need comfort or intimacy they seek their parents. Asking an adult friend if they could sleep in his bed seems utterly abnormal to me, and would be a huge red flag in itself. 

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12 hours ago, OmarBradley said:

:lol:

Well, in this case there was a sprawling manor which had heating and air conditioning/climate control, so I think your temperature-related excuse for children sleeping in a bed with strangers is moot here, in addition to it being totally ridiculous in general.

Michael Jackson: Oh you're cold, child? Come sleep in the bed with me under the covers, instead of the 70 spare guest rooms with beds of their own.

 

 

12 hours ago, Dazey said:

So let us for a moment assume that none of these kids became separated from their parents and suddenly found themselves camping in the Arctic and conclude that you're talking bollocks. :lol:

 

7 hours ago, downzy said:

 

 

In fairness guys, it does get quite chilly in Southern California...

:P

Your reading comprehension leaves a lot to be desired.

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On 05/03/2019 at 10:00 AM, alfierose said:

I'm with Len on this one. Red flags everywhere, hiding in plain sight. It reminds me of Saville.

I can't claim to know the absolute truth but I'm not inclined to dismiss the accusers just because MJ had legend status.

The fact is he did sleep with other parents boys, didnt these kids and other kids parents know about his behaviour and call it out in the press or to michaels management as a concern?. What the fuck were these parents thinking?.

Yes he did have deep psychological issues  and i reckon it was attributed by his father when he rode the jackson 5 so hard,  to make it big probably both physical and emotional abuse. Add to that his money sucking family and no wonder he had issues!!.

Edited by Sydney Fan
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Blaming your Dad cuz he slapped you about when you were a kid is bollocks, grow some fuckin' nuts, plenty of fuckin' people got that didn't turn out to be nutters.  Shit, Roy Joneses Dad beat the fuckin' brakes off him on a regular basis, you don't hear him in the media crying and complaining about it or using it as an excuse everytime he does something stupid.  Yeah yeah, not everyone responds the same way, damn right they don't, some don't get it used as an excuse when they get clocked fingering little boys.  In fact Roy Jones even said he doesn't regret it cuz it taught him a lot i.e. the fact that, in life, there are consequences to fucking up.  Now did those fucks ups warrant a high grade pasting?  Perhaps not but its all about how you take shit.

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1 hour ago, Sydney Fan said:

The fact is he did sleep with other parents boys, didnt these kids and other kids parents know about his behaviour and call it out in the press or to michaels management as a concern?. What the fuck were these parents thinking?.

The film goes into why parents looked the other way.  The issue of celebrity and how it blinds people to what others might consider an obvious red flag is explored and explained.  From an outsiders perspective it still doesn't make much sense, but I can understand why it takes hold of certain people where reality and expectations do not meet within their own lives.  I've been privy to many personal experiences with various celebrities and they do have this gravitational pull.  Again, this isn't to excuse the parents of their basic responsibilities, but I think some understanding should be given considering that few have been put in that position.  

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1 hour ago, Scream of the Butterfly said:

Your reading comprehension leaves a lot to be desired.

I acknowledged we're being a bit unfair since I asked for specific examples of when sleeping in the same bed with a strange kid would be okay and you provided a very specific and unique situation where I think most people would understand.  

But that said, it speaks to how fucked up the conversation is that we're even talking about this kind of thing.  It's so absurd that there's an attempt to rationalize this behaviour by some (not saying you're doing that) that there's a need to drill down on how strange and disturbing this behaviour is.  

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3 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

Haha, what was that all about? Probably contacted an actual historian after you said something ludicrous. 

Anyway, if you say something silly about children then it is only reasonable that people assume you have limited experience with them. You cannot engage in discussions and think your arguments don't allow people to form an opinion of you. You do the same yourself. 

Again: kids normally have no desire to sleep in the beds of adults, except when in need of comfort from their parents, regardless of the level of fame and fortune that persom may wield. Not even adults that are their good friends or relatives. When they need comfort or intimacy they seek their parents. Asking an adult friend if they could sleep in his bed seems utterly abnormal to me, and would be a huge red flag in itself. 

It was the weirdest stalkiest behaviour ever and I am not discussing Michael Jackson.

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18 hours ago, Scream of the Butterfly said:

For example, under circumstances where it is the only way to stay warm and stay alive.

 

4 hours ago, Scream of the Butterfly said:

Your reading comprehension leaves a lot to be desired.

Elaborate please, how is 'circumstances where it is the only way to stay warm and stay alive' at all relevant to Michael Jackson and the question of children sleeping in his bed? This is not Stalingrad in 1943, this was a celebrity mansion in a secure environment. 

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8 hours ago, Len Cnut said:

Blaming your Dad cuz he slapped you about when you were a kid is bollocks, grow some fuckin' nuts, plenty of fuckin' people got that didn't turn out to be nutters.  Shit, Roy Joneses Dad beat the fuckin' brakes off him on a regular basis, you don't hear him in the media crying and complaining about it or using it as an excuse everytime he does something stupid.  Yeah yeah, not everyone responds the same way, damn right they don't, some don't get it used as an excuse when they get clocked fingering little boys.  In fact Roy Jones even said he doesn't regret it cuz it taught him a lot i.e. the fact that, in life, there are consequences to fucking up.  Now did those fucks ups warrant a high grade pasting?  Perhaps not but its all about how you take shit.

Physical punishment is wrong for many reasons, including the fact that it messes some kids up. It doesn't matter if the majority isn't damaged. 

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8 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

Physical punishment is wrong for many reasons, including the fact that it messes some kids up. It doesn't matter if the majority isn't damaged. 

don't worry, you can count on tablets and political correct schools to do that to your kid

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11 hours ago, Len Cnut said:

Quite frankly its made more of a big deal of these days than it is.  

Are you sure your opinion on physical punishment is based on statistics and not just "I wasn't damaged so it couldn't have been wrong" and a feeling of protection of your dad/family? 

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10 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Are you sure your opinion on physical punishment is based on statistics and not just "I wasn't damaged so it couldn't have been wrong" and a feeling of protection of your dad/family? 

I've lived (though only for a year) in a country where corporal punishment was the norm in schools, its not pleasant but it is what it is, didn't damage anybody anymore than life in general does, you just get on with things, yeah my old man weren't adverse to giving me a slap round the head if I was fuckin' about, same with a lot of my mates and people I knew and there's plenty of examples of it in public life, I take a dim view of people who do fucked up things and then lay the blame on getting a slap 30 years ago, if you're a fuckin' adult and know the difference between right and wrong then you're responsible for your own actions, simple as that.

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2 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

I've lived (though only for a year) in a country where corporal punishment was the norm in schools, its not pleasant but it is what it is, didn't damage anybody anymore than life in general does, you just get on with things, yeah my old man weren't adverse to giving me a slap round the head if I was fuckin' about, same with a lot of my mates and people I knew and there's plenty of examples of it in public life, I take a dim view of people who do fucked up things and then lay the blame on getting a slap 30 years ago, if you're a fuckin' adult and know the difference between right and wrong then you're responsible for your own actions, simple as that.

The effect might be too subtle for you to have seen, but it does lead to more aggression: https://www.apa.org/monitor/2012/04/spanking

You know, kids who get slapped around are more likely to enjoy boxing, talk macho, idolize old-school patriarchal heroes, and brutalize swans. 

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