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Leaving Neverland, Michael Jackson Documentary, HBO


JONEZY

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1 hour ago, toroymoi said:

Not only was he a pedophile, but he was a manipulative and cruel person in other ways too. Even if you don't want to believe he sexually abused children, he was still far from the kind-hearted angel his fans view him as.

Bingo.

On 2019-08-15 at 10:44 AM, Edward Nygma said:

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Really?  Didn't realize either man had made a dollar from these accusations thus far...

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41 minutes ago, downzy said:

Bingo.

Really?  Didn't realize either man had made a dollar from these accusations thus far...

They've been trying to get millions from the Jackson estate since 2013. I understand that you've let the film construct your opinion for you (even though it has an endless amount of falsehoods and contradictions that you seem to just be ignoring because they were "convincing") but please don't try to make it look like they haven't been looking for money since the beginning. Also, I think you'd be pretty silly to think they haven't made any money from the media circus. 

Edited by Jw224
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10 minutes ago, Jw224 said:

They've been trying to get millions from the Jackson estate since 2013. I understand that you've let the film construct your opinion for you (even though it has an endless amount of falsehoods and contradictions that you seem to just be ignoring because they were "convincing") but please don't try to make it look like they haven't been looking for money since the beginning. Also, I think you'd be pretty silly to think they haven't made any money from the media circus. 

1) My opinion is based on many factors and influences, the film being one of them..  No one knows what truly happened.  Each of us can look at everything and make our own minds up.  If you want to believe MJ is innocent, fine.  But don't get on your high horse because others, like myself, choose to believe that man who slept with several young boys is guilty of sexual assault.  

2) The legal avenues for civil litigation has all but closed for both Robson and Safechuck.  The HBO film was made after those avenues were closed.  So no, I don't believe their motivation to voice their stories is motivated by money.  

3) Accounts from both sides are filled with inconsistencies.  Victims of sexual assault often have factual inconsistencies in their stories, particularly if the abuse happened decades ago when they're children.  Pointing out inconsistencies isn't proof that the accusers are lying or that the abuse never happened.

4) Please name how they've made money from their claims?  Please provide specific examples rather than groundless speculation?  

 

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39 minutes ago, downzy said:

 

2) The legal avenues for civil litigation has all but closed for both Robson and Safechuck.  The HBO film was made after those avenues were closed.  So no, I don't believe their motivation to voice their stories is motivated by money.  

 

That is not true. They are in the process as we speak of refiling their case, with yet further ammendments (or changes to their story) to try and get around the pesky law. The truth doesn't change, but apparently their experiences as "victims" does and has multiple times, with each new refiling.

Within days of Leaving Neverland airing, Wade and James's lawyers put out an advert on their website, referring to the movie and fishing for further "victims." The shameless advert, which has a link to the movie and details of how to contact the law firm to claim compensation is still on their website if you care to see it. If that doesn't tell you that the whole thing was a strategic move by their legal team to strengthen/bolster their case and tempt other kids who knew MJ to jump on the bandwagon then you are seriously deluded.

Edited by Towelie
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40 minutes ago, downzy said:

1) My opinion is based on many factors and influences, the film being one of them..  No one knows what truly happened.  Each of us can look at everything and make our own minds up.  If you want to believe MJ is innocent, fine.  But don't get on your high horse because others, like myself, choose to believe that man who slept with several young boys is guilty of sexual assault.  

 

Your opinion is not based on many factors. Your opinion is based on the film and the film alone. I've read your posts for years, including your thoughts on MJ and you never once said you believed him to be a pedophile until the documentary aired.

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50 minutes ago, downzy said:

 

3) Accounts from both sides are filled with inconsistencies.  Victims of sexual assault often have factual inconsistencies in their stories, particularly if the abuse happened decades ago when they're children.  Pointing out inconsistencies isn't proof that the accusers are lying or that the abuse never happened.

So what are you saying here? That it doesn't matter how many holes are in their story or how many outright lies they get caught out in, none of this can be taken as proof it didn't happen because it was a long time ago? 

One or two inconsistencies, fair enough. Everybody's memory fails them from time to time. But Wade and James's allegations have one inconsistency after another. Watch Lies of Leaving Neverland, it's all there.

If you can't defend someone by pointing out serious flaws which undermine an accusers account, then why do we bother to have trials at all? Lets just take everyones word for it and lock up anyone and everyone the minute someone makes an allegation.

 

Edited by Towelie
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40 minutes ago, Towelie said:

That is not true. They are in the process as we speak of refiling their case, with yet further ammendments (or changes to their story) to try and get around the pesky law. The truth doesn't change, but apparently their experiences as "victims" does and has multiple times, with each new refiling

The previous rulings dismissing the case are on appeal.  I've seen no evidence that the case was refiled.  

40 minutes ago, Towelie said:

Within days of Leaving Neverland airing, Wade and James's lawyers put out an advert on their website, referring to the movie and fishing for further "victims." The shameless advert,

I don't agree.  There are often multiple victims with these kinds of cases and it makes sense that the legal representation for both Robson and Safechuck would seek to discover other victims of MJ.

 

36 minutes ago, Towelie said:

Your opinion is not based on many factors. Your opinion is based on the film and the film alone. I've read your posts for years, including your thoughts on MJ and you never once said you believed him to be a pedophile until the documentary aired.

Wrong.  

I said I was on the fence as I hadn't paid much attention to the matter.  The video led me to look into the issue with greater interest and I've read a lot on not just this one particular matter but also on child victimization in general.  

30 minutes ago, Towelie said:

So what are you saying here? That it doesn't matter how many holes are in their story or how many outright lies they get caught out in, none of this can be taken as proof it didn't happen because it was a long time ago?

Nope.

My point being that inconsistencies doesn't prove them to be liars.  As mentioned earlier, it's common for victims of sexual assault to get certain details wrong (locations, dates, etc.).  It's not uncommon for memory to fail victims relative to particular details.  This is compounded when the abuse happened decades earlier when the victims were children.

Moreover, why isn't Jackson and the Jackson estate not held to the same grounds?  Why are the many inconsistencies given by Jackson dismissed and yet the inconsistencies within Robson and Safechuck's accounts deemed proof of their dishonesty?  

30 minutes ago, Towelie said:

Lets just take everyones word for it and lock up anyone and everyone the minute someone makes an allegation.

Not an argument myself and others who believe Jackson's guilt on the matter is trying to make.  

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2 hours ago, Towelie said:

So what are you saying here? That it doesn't matter how many holes are in their story or how many outright lies they get caught out in, none of this can be taken as proof it didn't happen because it was a long time ago? 

One or two inconsistencies, fair enough. Everybody's memory fails them from time to time. But Wade and James's allegations have one inconsistency after another. Watch Lies of Leaving Neverland, it's all there.

If you can't defend someone by pointing out serious flaws which undermine an accusers account, then why do we bother to have trials at all? Lets just take everyones word for it and lock up anyone and everyone the minute someone makes an allegation.

 

Pretty much this. They could say mj took them to space and molested them and supporters would be like "Well you don't know how the mind the abused works they are clearly just making small mistakes". It's utterly ridiculous that with the amount of outright lies they have told and constantly changing their stories (not by small amounts, either) that people are still trying to defend them. Their family has been caught outright lying in the doc as well, not small mistakes, outright lies that can be proven as such. Wade has been abused "hundreds of times" yet his own mother testified that he had only been there when mj was actually at Neverland 4 times in the entire time they knew him, okay 🙄. 

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4 hours ago, downzy said:

Yeah, because never having a childhood somehow makes it understandable for MJ to sleep in the same bed with a revolving number of prepubescent boys.   

I agree! Like I said very naive. But that doesn't mean they all played milk the cow. 

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8 hours ago, downzy said:

1) My opinion is based on many factors and influences, the film being one of them..  No one knows what truly happened.  Each of us can look at everything and make our own minds up.  If you want to believe MJ is innocent, fine.  But don't get on your high horse because others, like myself, choose to believe that man who slept with several young boys is guilty of sexual assault.  

2) The legal avenues for civil litigation has all but closed for both Robson and Safechuck.  The HBO film was made after those avenues were closed.  So no, I don't believe their motivation to voice their stories is motivated by money.  

3) Accounts from both sides are filled with inconsistencies.  Victims of sexual assault often have factual inconsistencies in their stories, particularly if the abuse happened decades ago when they're children.  Pointing out inconsistencies isn't proof that the accusers are lying or that the abuse never happened.

4) Please name how they've made money from their claims?  Please provide specific examples rather than groundless speculation?  

 

I am not getting on any type of high horse. You have previously admitted that you had no opinion until you had seen the documentary, and that you found them very "convincing". The "he slept next to boys in bed" argument is tired and beaten to death tbh. If you were actually interested in this topic and didn't just want to think mj was guilty, which you clearly do, then you would have done some research, which you clearly haven't. 

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12 hours ago, Jw224 said:

It's utterly ridiculous that with the amount of outright lies they have told and constantly changing their stories (not by small amounts, either) that people are still trying to defend them

No it's not.  There have been some inconsistencies with dates.  That's about it.  

12 hours ago, Jw224 said:

Their family has been caught outright lying in the doc as well, not small mistakes, outright lies that can be proven as such.

Such as?

12 hours ago, Jw224 said:

Wade has been abused "hundreds of times" yet his own mother testified that he had only been there when mj was actually at Neverland 4 times in the entire time they knew him, okay 🙄. 

Again, do we know the mother to be correct?  Whatever testimony you're alluding to could be wrong or referenced out of context.  

7 hours ago, Jw224 said:

I am not getting on any type of high horse.

Your last three posts, including your response, have been incredibly arrogant and dripping of disdain for anyone who chooses to believe Robson, Safechuck, and MJ's other accusers.  Within your same post you claim I have not, and choose not to, investigate further.  So please, save me and everyone the sanctimonious horse shit.  You're entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine.  The truth is no one, other than Robson, Safechuck, and I suppose the soul of MJ should it exist, knows what happened.  Everyone else is peddling in belief on this matter.  So don't take it so personally.  It really doesn't matter to you personally one way or another in the grand scheme of things if someone chooses to believe that MJ sexually assault prepubescent boys.  

7 hours ago, Jw224 said:

You have previously admitted that you had no opinion until you had seen the documentary

Again, wrong.  I stated that I was on the fence, that I hadn't really looked into the matter other than reading the headlines and a Readers Digest article interviewing the lead detective in the Chandler accusations.  I just hadn't committed myself to looking into the matter either way because frankly, I really didn't want MJ to be guilty of what he stood accused of.  But after HBO film I did spend a lot of time looking at all the various claims and information out there. I also spent a lot of time on how victims of sexual assault internalize and process the trauma.  Ultimately I decided that both Robson and Safechuck are telling the truth, regardless of whether a few days are off here and there.

Again, I honestly don't give a shit if people want to believe MJ is innocent of the allegations.  As I said, there's no way to really know for sure.  But what I take issue with is attitudes like yours that chastise people like myself and others for believing one side over another.  Moreover, what really bothers me is when MJ supporters find the need to make up information or claims to undermine the accusers and those who support them.  You yourself have even done it, with the claim that Robson and Safechuck have made money from these claims despite providing zero evidence to support that claim.  Towellie has made similar bogus accusations in this thread that can't be substantiated anywhere.  Again, you want to believe MJ is innocent.  Fine. But let's stop making shit up to support your opinion. 

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