Leaving Neverland, Michael Jackson Documentary, HBO

[Jabberwocky]

1 hour ago, Len Cnut said:

I wouldn't argue with him on that one, she was fit as fuck early on though she's started to take on the look of those knackered old Jeep Cherokee driving American mid-west mums lately.

lately? when I seen her get out of that car and she had no panties on it turned me right the fuck off. It was when she was gallivanting with Paris.

It kinda made me laugh at how they were juxtaposing these clips of her when the dude is describing it. It came off more comical than creepy.

Edited March 6, 2019 by Jabberwocky

[downzy]

7 hours ago, Len Cnut said:

To anyone whoose seen it, in a nutshell, what do they actually accuse him of, what, bumming them?  

I just finished watching it and glad that I did.  It's more than just about the assault, but the process by which it occurred and how the victims processed it during and afterward.  

I stated before that I didn't believe the film would move me either way.  But I think it might have shaken me from the agnostic branch I sat on.  The accounts by Robson and Safechuck rang true and felt very credible to me.  What really moved me was how both Robson and Safechuck both became to accept what happened with them; that it was having their own kids that pushed them to the point where they couldn't avoid it any further.   What further corroborates their stories is the accounts by family members and particularly the wives.  They account how they saw their husbands broke down prior to revealing their abuse.  

Their stories are fascinating and I think worth people's time.  

[action]

I'm trying to compose a coherent hypothesis about what happened, given the pertinent facts, but I just can't.

let's suppose MJ sexually assaulted these kids. If MJ was a sexual predator, there will be lots of victims. Right? If the 4 hour documentary is to be believed, MJ's created a whole enterprise around him with the sole purpose of luring children in and raping them. So the claim is, MJ made lots and lots of victims. Inevitably then, some of these kids had told their parents worrying things in the early '90s. Remember, these kids are sexually assaulted in our hypothesis.

The logical thing to do then for most of these parents, is to go to the authorities. Now you will always have parents who will have refrained from telling the cops for whatever reason, but not nearly every one of them. This is something, that I'm not willing to accept.

Well it turns out, the parents didn't go to the authorities. Other than the jordy case, I dont remember others. That's a fact that is clear and it needs to be reviewed with a clear mind.

the question needs to be asked: why? why didn't they go to the authorities?

-> Ockhams razor tells you: because there weren't any more. 

-> Another hypothesis is, these parents were deliberately putting their children with MJ in the hope to set him back a few millions of bucks. This, notwithstanding the cries of distress of their children. In other words; these parents were absolute scumbags. What I find peculiar then, is why don't these children sue their parents nowadays? There are no reported cases of some of these children having a major fallout with their parents, over the horrible things they put them through.

-> So what do we have left? suppose these kids told their parents (as they most certainly will have done), but these parents didn't react accordingly, MJ continued his gruesome activity, but no cases were filed by these parents, AND the authorities didn't find conclusive proof during multiple investigations. This hypothesis is full of inconsistency and doesn't make fucking sense.

So in short, I fail to come up with a reasonable explanation on why there were so little reported cases, "in tempero non suspecto".

 

 

[Len Cnut]

8 hours ago, Jabberwocky said:

lately? when I seen her get out of that car and she had no panties on it turned me right the fuck off. It was when she was gallivanting with Paris.

It kinda made me laugh at how they were juxtaposing these clips of her when the dude is describing it. It came off more comical than creepy.

Nah, even skanky Britney was worth a go.  Come to that even the Mick Dundee skinned Britney of 2019 is worth a go, I mean she ain't all that anymore but as a good friend of mine once said I ain't all that either

[Len Cnut]

20 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

Fuck that. I'm too good for her. 

Shit, I'd probably shag her Mum given the chance

[soon]

3 hours ago, action said:

I'm trying to compose a coherent hypothesis about what happened, given the pertinent facts, but I just can't.

let's suppose MJ sexually assaulted these kids. If MJ was a sexual predator, there will be lots of victims. Right? If the 4 hour documentary is to be believed, MJ's created a whole enterprise around him with the sole purpose of luring children in and raping them. So the claim is, MJ made lots and lots of victims. Inevitably then, some of these kids had told their parents worrying things in the early '90s. Remember, these kids are sexually assaulted in our hypothesis.

The logical thing to do then for most of these parents, is to go to the authorities. Now you will always have parents who will have refrained from telling the cops for whatever reason, but not nearly every one of them. This is something, that I'm not willing to accept.

Well it turns out, the parents didn't go to the authorities. Other than the jordy case, I dont remember others. That's a fact that is clear and it needs to be reviewed with a clear mind.

the question needs to be asked: why? why didn't they go to the authorities?

-> Ockhams razor tells you: because there weren't any more. 

-> Another hypothesis is, these parents were deliberately putting their children with MJ in the hope to set him back a few millions of bucks. This, notwithstanding the cries of distress of their children. In other words; these parents were absolute scumbags. What I find peculiar then, is why don't these children sue their parents nowadays? There are no reported cases of some of these children having a major fallout with their parents, over the horrible things they put them through.

-> So what do we have left? suppose these kids told their parents (as they most certainly will have done), but these parents didn't react accordingly, MJ continued his gruesome activity, but no cases were filed by these parents, AND the authorities didn't find conclusive proof during multiple investigations. This hypothesis is full of inconsistency and doesn't make fucking sense.

So in short, I fail to come up with a reasonable explanation on why there were so little reported cases, "in tempero non suspecto".

 

 

The quantity of reporting to parents is one issue. The parents reporting to authorities is another. The authorities acting is yet another.

Low reporting is consistent with what is known about such predators, like Jimmy Saville. Also suicide rates are high so not all victims survive to a point where they are prepared to confront things.

I watched Abducted in Plain Sight and Dirty John on Netflix recently and they both make clear that sometimes parents are complete idiots. Like, theres just something missing.

[alfierose]

37 minutes ago, soon said:

I watched Abducted in Plain Sight and Dirty John on Netflix recently and they both make clear that sometimes parents are complete idiots. Like, theres just something missing.

I watched Dirty John recently and read some stuff about the real case. The mother was ridiculously stupid for someone who otherwise was a successful adult. When you read about the family dynamics- the grandmother, the murdered sister and forgiven brother in law it's really easy to see how that mindset happened.

[alfierose]

Heads up for anyone in the UK, Channel 4 is showing Leaving Neverland tonight and tomorrow at 9pm. I'm guessing it will go on to catch up after that.

[Len Cnut]

40 minutes ago, lukepowell1988 said:

He named his kid Blanket .. He is a weirdo case closed 

I don't mind weirdoes.  In fact I love weirdos, some of my favourite human beings, most in fact, are weirdos, weirdos make life interesting.  Its just when they get into that whole shagging kids bit then things get a bit weird.  Its worth noting y'know that a great many of the prominent homosexuals from yesteryear probably shagged underage boys, being as how being a bandit was illegal in them days so they all went on cruises to the far east or places like Tangiers hawking for rent boys, they call them rent boys and not rent men for a reason, I mean no ones gonna pay good money to shag some middle aged bloke are they?    So like, William S Burroughs, Kenneth Williams, a great many of the theatricals of the day actually, were more than likely bumming boys.

Which is a good argument for homosexuality being legal between consenting adults, because if you outlaw something like that which is a natural inclination and suppress it then you give rise to these mad neurotic repressed people running around the world looking for other outlets to serve their needs.

[Crazyman]

3 hours ago, lukepowell1988 said:

He named his kid Blanket .. He is a weirdo case closed 

You didn't need a 4 hour documentary to tell you that 

Edit: if you think he's even the slightest bit guilty avoid reddit. I don't think he did it but his fans are more fucked than Axl fans back in the day defending him

Edited March 6, 2019 by Crazyman

[downzy]

8 hours ago, action said:

I'm trying to compose a coherent hypothesis about what happened, given the pertinent facts, but I just can't.

let's suppose MJ sexually assaulted these kids. If MJ was a sexual predator, there will be lots of victims. Right? If the 4 hour documentary is to be believed, MJ's created a whole enterprise around him with the sole purpose of luring children in and raping them. So the claim is, MJ made lots and lots of victims. Inevitably then, some of these kids had told their parents worrying things in the early '90s. Remember, these kids are sexually assaulted in our hypothesis.

The logical thing to do then for most of these parents, is to go to the authorities. Now you will always have parents who will have refrained from telling the cops for whatever reason, but not nearly every one of them. This is something, that I'm not willing to accept.

Well it turns out, the parents didn't go to the authorities. Other than the jordy case, I dont remember others. That's a fact that is clear and it needs to be reviewed with a clear mind.

the question needs to be asked: why? why didn't they go to the authorities?

-> Ockhams razor tells you: because there weren't any more. 

-> Another hypothesis is, these parents were deliberately putting their children with MJ in the hope to set him back a few millions of bucks. This, notwithstanding the cries of distress of their children. In other words; these parents were absolute scumbags. What I find peculiar then, is why don't these children sue their parents nowadays? There are no reported cases of some of these children having a major fallout with their parents, over the horrible things they put them through.

-> So what do we have left? suppose these kids told their parents (as they most certainly will have done), but these parents didn't react accordingly, MJ continued his gruesome activity, but no cases were filed by these parents, AND the authorities didn't find conclusive proof during multiple investigations. This hypothesis is full of inconsistency and doesn't make fucking sense.

So in short, I fail to come up with a reasonable explanation on why there were so little reported cases, "in tempero non suspecto".

Have you watched Leaving Neverland?

A lot of your issues are addressed in the film.  

As @soon mentioned, the issue with sexual assault is that it isn't always reported.  I think it's hard for people who haven't been victimized to fully understand how difficult it can be to come forward.  Both Robson and Safechuck acknowledge that they felt shame, embarrassment, and responsibility on their end and love and guilt with respect to their feelings about MJ.  Safechuck acknowledges how he grapples with coming to terms what happened with him and his feelings of love towards Michael.  

Also, some of your assumptions are kind of suspect.  I'm not sure we should give cast doubt on people who come forward in cases where there isn't a critical mass of supposed victims (aka Cosby numbers). 

With respect to the parents, a couple of things.  Both Robson and Safechuck never told their parents until years later.  Robson's mom talks about when they would travel with Michael her room would increasingly be moved further and further away from Michael and Wade's.  We don't know if there are other victims who never told their parents.  We don't know if other possible victims were bought off by MJ.  Keep in mind MJ had attempted to settle financially with Chandler prior to the accusations coming out.  If someone were to wrongly accuse me of sexually abusing children the first thing I'd do would be to turn to the police immediately.  MJ didn't do that.

What struck me most about the documentary was the second half of part two.  It addressed how those around Safechuck and Robson came to terms and the fall out.  I have a hard time believing that Robson would make his mom feel like absolute shit solely to put himself in the spotlight and take a shot at a civil lawsuit.  I find it increasingly difficult to believe that both men faked their nervous breakdowns prior to admitting what happened to rope in their wives and family members in on their con.  It's either that or the wives are in on the charade as well.  But if you watch their accounts, it's just impossible to imagine that both women would be capable of making up such ludicrous stories and tell them in such a convincing way.  

As I said before, it's a very subjective and personal decision with respect to who to believe.  I don't fault yourself and others for seeing Michael as innocent.  I'd love to think he's the victim here as it would make it way more convenient for me.  Michael Jackson was my favourite performer/musician as a kid growing up in the 80s.  His music is the soundtrack to mid to late 80s for me.  But after watching the documentary and hearing Robson and Safechuck's accounts from them and those around them, I have little doubt that they were the victims of sexual abuse by Michael Jackson.  I can't speak to other kids, both the ones we know about and perhaps those we don't, but with respect to those two men, I firmly believe them.  

[Lio]

7 minutes ago, downzy said:

What struck me most about the documentary was the second half of part two.  It addressed how those around Safechuck and Robson came to terms and the fall out.  I have a hard time believing that Robson would make his mom feel like absolute shit solely to put himself in the spotlight and take a shot at a civil lawsuit.  I find it increasingly difficult that both men faked their nervous breakdowns prior to admitting what happened to rope in their wives and family members in on their con.  It's either that or the wives are in on the charade as well.  But if you watch their accounts, it's just impossible to imagine that both women would be capable of making up such ludicrous stories and tell them in such a convincing way. 

I haven't watched the documentary yet, but this is what I read a lot and what makes me believe they're not lying now. For one I can hardly imagine wanting to put yourself through the shame of having been abused and telling so many horrific things. In the same vein, so many rapes are never reported, because the victim feels ashamed, guilty, and doesn't want to go through the whole being in the spotlights and divulging your most personal and painful memories to everyone, knowing everyone will have an opinion about them and say stupid and heartless stuff like 'they had it coming' or 'they made it up'. It must be horrible to go through it all and then have ignorant assholes say stuff like that.

But of course I'm not everyone, and who knows what length people will go through for fame and money?

But the second thing is the family, as you mention. Are they all in on it? Have they been meeting up and writing these terrible stories together? I find that incredibly hard to believe.

It seems a lot more believable that a guy we all agree is a weirdo and did things like sleep with boys that weren't his family, was in fact a paedophile and a predator.

[Len Cnut]

Quote

But the second thing is the family, as you mention. Are they all in on it? Have they been meeting up and writing these terrible stories together? I find that incredibly hard to believe.

In defence of Jacko why not?  People do it every day, people who scam social services stand up in court with their entire families corroborating a tissue of lies, remember they stand to earn a great deal of money out of this, PROPER money, like never work again money, its not outside the realm of possibility, in fact its more than possible and there are plenty of examples of it out there, that they might be making all this shit up and all be in on it.  And remember this is a documentary, its a calculated and deliberate piece designed to illicit certain reactions from the audience, if there were inconsistencies they had a lot of time to get their shit together.

People with the amount of time that these folks had, as well as the potential earner on top, can make up all kinds of convincing shit but there's nothing that these guys are saying that can't be gleaned from like, the sexual assault victim 101.  Nothing that I've read here I should say, I've not heard their testimonies or seen the documentary.

Edited March 6, 2019 by Len Cnut

[action]

54 minutes ago, downzy said:

Have you watched Leaving Neverland?

A lot of your issues are addressed in the film.  

As @soon mentioned, the issue with sexual assault is that it isn't always reported.  I think it's hard for people who haven't been victimized to fully understand how difficult it can be to come forward.  Both Robson and Safechuck acknowledge that they felt shame, embarrassment, and responsibility on their end and love and guilt with respect to their feelings about MJ.  Safechuck acknowledges how he grapples with coming to terms what happened with him and his feelings of love towards Michael.  

Also, some of your assumptions are kind of suspect.  I'm not sure we should give cast doubt on people who come forward in cases where there isn't a critical mass of supposed victims (aka Cosby numbers). 

With respect to the parents, a couple of things.  Both Robson and Safechuck never told their parents until years later.  Robson's mom talks about when they would travel with Michael her room would increasingly be moved further and further away from Michael and Wade's.  We don't know if there are other victims who never told their parents.  We don't know if other possible victims were bought off by MJ.  Keep in mind MJ had attempted to settle financially with Chandler prior to the accusations coming out.  If someone were to wrongly accuse me of sexually abusing children the first thing I'd do would be to turn to the police immediately.  MJ didn't do that.

What struck me most about the documentary was the second half of part two.  It addressed how those around Safechuck and Robson came to terms and the fall out.  I have a hard time believing that Robson would make his mom feel like absolute shit solely to put himself in the spotlight and take a shot at a civil lawsuit.  I find it increasingly difficult that both men faked their nervous breakdowns prior to admitting what happened to rope in their wives and family members in on their con.  It's either that or the wives are in on the charade as well.  But if you watch their accounts, it's just impossible to imagine that both women would be capable of making up such ludicrous stories and tell them in such a convincing way.  

As I said before, it's a very subjective and personal decision with respect to who to believe.  I don't fault yourself and others for seeing Michael as innocent.  I'd love to think he's the victim here as it would make it way more convenient for me.  Michael Jackson was my favourite performer/musician as a kid growing up in the 80s.  His music is the soundtrack to mid to late 80s for me.  But after watching the documentary and hearing Robson and Safechuck's accounts from them and those around them, I have little doubt that they were the victims of sexual abuse by Michael Jackson.  I can't speak to other kids, both the ones we know about and perhaps those we don't, but with respect to those two men, I firmly believe them.  

I appreciate what you say.

but I have a hard time believing people who, by their own admission, have lied in court while under oath. I don't know why they lied, but they lied. as per default, they forfeit any credibility

I also have a hard time believing people who, like jordy chandlers parents, are content with money, any kind of money. You can't just miraculously cure a sexual trauma with a couple of million dollars. If I was his parent, I don't know what I'd do with jacko but I sure as hell wouldn't accept his money and be done with it. Chances are I'd do stupid stuff that'd put me in jail.

I have a hard time believing people like that producer (bashir) of the "living with MJ" docu, which also wanted to prove sexual crimes, while bashir himself has, on the occasion of MJ's passing, felt the need to backtrack and claim that "he never saw any evidence of sexual crimes".

I "want" to believe, but there are so many "witnessess" backtracking, lying under oath and above all: they want lots of money.

If you're in it for the money dear, then sorry, you're not a victim. You're an offender. Certainly in the case of the recent docu: those two men are offenders. Look at what they do to MJ's children. They are traumtised by the docu, more than they have ever been while under MJ's care.

I can not get over the hypocrisy shown here, while all of this outrcy is supposedly in the interest of "the children" but it's the children of MJ that are suffering the most. And nobody gives a damn. But I certainly do.

This all just reeks of money / witch hunting.

I've yet to see the first "clean" evidence, of anything. 

Edited March 6, 2019 by action

[Len Cnut]

Quote

I've yet to see the first "clean" evidence, of anything. 

Well it should be taken for granted that there is none of that, if there was then there'd be no room for discussion and Jacko would've been behind bars long ago.

Quote

You can't just miraculously cure a sexual trauma with a couple of million dollars.

No but it'll knock a few bills off the list of concerns eh, lighten the load a bit

[downzy]

Just now, action said:

I appreciate what you say.

but I have a hard time believing people who, by their own admission, have lied in court while under oath. I don't know why they lied, but they lied. as per default, they forfeit any credibility

This is addressed in the documentary.  Again, I would encourage you to watch it to ascertain why they acted the way they did.  You don't have to believe them.  At the end of the day, it's their word versus MJ's (or now his estate).  But it's one thing to read a report or website, it's another to hear the accusations coming from the reported victims themselves.  

Quote

I also have a hard time believing people who, like jordy chandlers parents, are content with money, any kind of money. You can't just miraculously cure a sexual trauma with a couple of million dollars. If I was his parent, I don't know what I'd do with jacko but I sure as hell wouldn't accept his money and be done with it. Chances are I'd do stupid stuff that'd put me in jail.

Again, the documentary doesn't really speak to the Chandler case.  It does seem impossible that parents could look the other way on sexual assault for a certain dollar figure.  But then it seems impossible to me that people would let their children sleep with a grown man in his bed.  So there's all kinds out there.  And as I said before, Chandler's parents, particularly his father, could be everything you and others accuse him of being.  But it doesn't necessarily render what his son said about Michael not true.

Quote

I have a hard time believing people like that producer (bashir) of the "living with MJ" docu, which also wanted to prove sexual crimes, while bashir himself has, on the occasion of MJ's passing, felt the need to backtrack and claim that "he never saw any evidence of sexual crimes".

I "want" to believe, but there are so many "witnessess" backtracking, lying under oath and above all: they want lots of money.

And like I said, there's many reasons to doubt the accusations.  But I'd recommend watching and listening to Robson and Safechuck's accounts.  There's a reason why the show is four hours long.  It's very detailed and nuanced.

Quote

If you're in it for the money dear, then sorry, you're not a victim. You're an offender. Certainly in the case of the recent docu: those two men are offenders. Look at what they do to MJ's children. They are traumtised by the docu, more than they have ever been while under MJ's care.

I don't understand your point here.  Yes, both Robson and Safechuck filed civil suits against MJ's estate, but neither were paid to be in the documentary.  And the civil suit doesn't look like it's going to be going anywhere since it was already thrown out.  So I'm not sure I understand how charges of exploitation for financial gain make sense with respect to Robson and Safechuck.

With respect to MJ's kids, I do feel bad for them.  But is it you're assertion that people shouldn't accuse others of sexual assault because of the harm it will have on that person's kids?  Again, i feel bad for his kids, but if Robson and Safechuck are victims of MJ, then they should have the opportunity to tell their stories.  Sorry, but this seem like nonsense to me.

Quote

I've yet to see the first "clean" evidence, of anything. 

Most evidence with respect to sexual assault of minor, particularly those that happened years or decades ago, isn't clean.  

[downzy]

13 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

In defence of Jacko why not?  People do it every day, people who scam social services stand up in court with their entire families corroborating a tissue of lies, remember they stand to earn a great deal of money out of this, PROPER money, like never work again money, its not outside the realm of possibility, in fact its more than possible and there are plenty of examples of it out there, that they might be making all this shit up and all be in on it.  And remember this is a documentary, its a calculated and deliberate piece designed to illicit certain reactions from the audience.

People with the amount of time that these folks had, as well as the potential earner on top, can make up all kinds of convincing shit but there's nothing that these guys are saying that can't be gleaned from like, the sexual assault victim 101.  Nothing that I've read here I should say, I've not heard their testimonies or seen the documentary.

Social service scams are one thing; a scam that involves admission of being brutalized by one of the biggest celebrities of all time is another.  Could it happen.  Sure.  But again, watch the documentary.  If you don't want to kill four hours, watch the second half of part two.  It was the interviews with the wives that had the most profound effect on me.  Their accounts of what happened to their husbands and the processes by which they came to terms is what had the biggest impact.  For me, there would be no amount of money worth having others look at me as a parent the way others now look at the mothers of Robson and Safechuck.  They utterly failed their boys.  To walk around with that kind of reputation due to one's own admission is unfathomable.  And as I said in my response to @action, the pathway to any financial compensation is pretty much closed shut for either family.   

[action]

8 minutes ago, downzy said:

 

With respect to MJ's kids, I do feel bad for them.  But is it you're assertion that people shouldn't accuse others of sexual assault because of the harm it will have on that person's kids?  Again, i feel bad for his kids, but if Robson and Safechuck are victims of MJ, then they should have the opportunity to tell their stories.  Sorry, but this seem like nonsense to me.

 

MJ's children are obviously going through a lot of suffering, and it's in part because of this docu.

it's cause (the docu) and effect (trauma). The causality is evident, and the causal action was deliberate.

they could also have foreseen that their docu would cause distress to his children. No one wants to hear all those accusations about their dad.

There were other ways, for those two "victims" to somehow get reckognition and find some kind of healing or closure. Plenty of ways, it's not up to me to sum them all up, but they chose this way and it causes harm to innocent children.

Victims have every right at reckognition. They don't however, by their status as a victim, have the right to cause trauma themselves.

Even if they are victims, they still need to act carefully, like you me and everyone else. they don't have the right to cause the suffering that they do.

also, suing MJ's estate is beyond pointless. MJ is dead. How could they possibly find closure by suing the MJ estate? How? does it make them feel better in any way? I'd like to know the psychological processes behind that one.

Edited March 6, 2019 by action

[ZoSoRose]

He was a weird, fucked up guy who made really good music. Unfortunately, when it comes to rock and pop, you have to separate the artist from the art or you're left with a lot of music you can't hear

I don't know what happened, and I don't know if I can stomach watching the documentary. I wasn't there, and I guess I can't really form an opinion either way. It sucks, though. I wish I could separate the art and artist, but here I am on a GNR message board and there I was going nuts to meet Axl a few years ago. He was accused of fucked up shit, too.

I don't know, its all a bummer

[downzy]

4 hours ago, action said:

MJ's children are obviously going through a lot of suffering, and it's in part because of this docu.

it's cause (the docu) and effect (trauma). The causality is evident, and the causal action was deliberate.

they could also have foreseen that their docu would cause distress to his children. No one wants to hear all those accusations about their dad.

There were other ways, for those two "victims" to somehow get reckognition and find some kind of healing or closure. Plenty of ways, it's not up to me to sum them all up, but they chose this way and it causes harm to innocent children.

Victims have every right at reckognition. They don't, by their status as a victim, have the right to cause trauma themselves.

Even if they are victims, they still need to act carefully, like you me and everyone else. they don't have the right to cause the suffering that they do.

also, suing MJ's estate is beyond pointless. MJ is dead. How could they possibly find closure by suing the MJ estate? How? does it make them feel better in any way? I'd like to know the psychological processes behind that one.

Sorry, but I find your reasoning here nonsense.  The children don't have to watch it.  It's not as though the accusations are new.  The documentary is an account from Jackson's accusers in their own words.  What other ways do you suppose here?  You say you don't want to sum them all up, but for the life of me, other than a book that most wouldn't read, I can't think of too many other ways to share their story.  

Moreover, there's more than just accounts that are communicated.  When Safechuck displays the jewelry that MJ bought him, his fingers and hands shake.  When he slips on the ring, you see just how small the ring is, that it was designed for a child's hand.  There's so much more communicated and presented through the medium of video that wouldn't be presented in print or audio alone.

Again, by your logic no victim is allowed to speak of their abuse should their accounts cause further trauma or harm to those associated with the accused.  Sorry, but that's nuts.  Harvey Weinstein has five kids.  Should his accusers remained silent because of the pain such accusations would have on Harvey's kids?  

Robson explains his motivations for filing the lawsuit.  As he notes in the documentary, it was more about having a chance to tell his truth and have a platform to do it.  According to him, it's not about the money.  It was reported in 2013, even by someone close to the Jackson estate, that he wasn't suing for much money (it was estimated around $15k for the cost of his therapy). 

Again, watch the documentary.  It might not change anything for you.  As I said, I was a full on agnostic about Jackson's guilt prior to watching it.  And while listening to their accounts was difficult, it wasn't until I watched the entire documentary that my own beliefs began to change.  At the end of the day, does it really matter to you and I either way?  If Jackson is what he's being accused of, wouldn't you rather have a better idea of that.  We can never know for sure, but I think if you're going to take a strong position either way, you owe it to those who purport to be victims to listen to what they have to say in their own words.

[Jw224]

All I'm gonna say is if you do the slightest bit of research on these "victims" you will see where their motivation for changing their stories is. Saying "omg it is so convincing and emotive" isn't valid. It is propaganda of the highest order and if you believe it and then do no further research then I have no trouble telling you how weak minded you are. There are many lies and inconsistencies that cannot be explained away in this documentary. This whole we shouldn't question people who say they are victims thing is ridiculous. Wade and James are liars, and bad ones at that. 

[downzy]

23 minutes ago, Jw224 said:

All I'm gonna say is if you do the slightest bit of research on these "victims" you will see where their motivation for changing their stories is. Saying "omg it is so convincing and emotive" isn't valid. It is propaganda of the highest order and if you believe it and then do no further research then I have no trouble telling you how weak minded you are. There are many lies and inconsistencies that cannot be explained away in this documentary. This whole we shouldn't question people who say they are victims thing is ridiculous. Wade and James are liars, and bad ones at that. 

Have you watched the documentary?

Nobody is saying we shouldn't question those who accuse others of sexual assault.  Please keep straw man arguments out of this.

Many have done research and acknowledge the issues and inconsistencies around previous accusers.  It still doesn't render what Robson and Sawchuck say as false.  

[Jw224]

15 minutes ago, downzy said:

Have you watched the documentary?

Nobody is saying we shouldn't question those who accuse others of sexual assault.  Please keep straw man arguments out of this.

Many have done research and acknowledge the issues and inconsistencies around previous accusers.  It still doesn't render what Robson and Sawchuck say as false.  

I already know everything that is said in it. I don't really feel the need to watch it, don't really want to sit for 4 hours and watch stuff I know is false. I think the fact that they have changed their stories at least 10 times since 2013 and also contradict each other and their own lawsuits constantly is enough to cast doubt on their credability for me. They legit make new stuff up every time they do an interview. 

Edited March 6, 2019 by Jw224

[downzy]

6 minutes ago, Jw224 said:

I already know everything that is said in it. I don't really feel the need to watch it, don't really want to sit for 4 hours and watch stuff I know is false. I think the fact that they have changed their stories at least 10 times since 2013 and also contradict each other and their own lawsuits constantly is enough to cast doubt on their credability for me. They legit make new stuff up every time they do an interview. 

Nobody, other than Jackson's accusers and Jackson when he was alive, knows anything.  

So you know what their wives and family members have to say?  You've heard their accounts on how their husbands (or sons/brothers) came to their realizations?  I didn't know their accounts had been publicly made so far.  

You believe in something or one account over another.  Nobody is going to knock you for that.  And you shouldn't knock others who believe people like Robson and Safechuck.  

[Jw224]

6 minutes ago, downzy said:

Nobody, other than Jackson's accusers and Jackson when he was alive, knows anything.  

So you know what their wives and family members have to say?  You've heard their accounts on how their husbands (or sons/brothers) came to their realizations?  I didn't know their accounts had been publicly made so far.  

You believe in something or one account over another.  Nobody is going to knock you for that.  And you shouldn't knock others who believe people like Robson and Safechuck.  

One side has evidence that these guys are financially motivated and the other is their words and the words of their families. Who have already been caught outright lying in the doc. I think we'll have to agree to disagree as it seems the doc has made up your mind. 

Edited March 6, 2019 by Jw224