Axl Rose On Why He Shouldn't Have Been On the Use Your Illusion Tour

[Len Cnut]

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It's easy for some of us to sit behind a screen and type that sort of oorah stuff, but a lot harder to put it into practice. Now, let me preface what I'm about to say by admitting that I prescribe to the whole "confront and conquer" way of doing things. It's the way I've always done everything in my personal life.

Its really not, the majority of the world do it every day...but you don't hear about those people cuz they don't wear kilts and run up and down ramps and make you feel all tingley when they sing sweet love songs.  The fact that you yourself do it should tell you something.  Its nothing as dramatic as 'confront and conquer', its called doing your fuckin' job, just like everybody else in the world has to.

Quote

Axl Rose was an un-medicated, manically depressed teenager/young man who was raped by his father and persecuted by most of his family. He dropped out of high school and hitchhiked across the country before he was even a legal adult. Raised by the streets. Did gallons of drugs... you get the picture. He was about as far away from "mentally sound" as a person can get. By all accounts, he shouldn't even be alive. The guy even tried to kill himself once (could have been more, we don't know) by swallowing a bucket of pills. He was a mental headcase, with an itch for death.

I don't buy that shit.  Raped by his father, says who?  I'll tell you says who, says regression therapy, you know what regression therapy is?  Some guy sits you on a couch and makes you try and unlock memories from when you were way too young to remember shit.  More than that I think it was irresponsible of Axl to go around claiming he was raped at aged 2 because his fuckin' regression therapist told him so, thats some poor blokes reputation and good name he is putting on the chopping block based on a bunch of new age bullshit, 'regression therapy' is not conventional or textbook psychology, its hokey shit, most especially when its talking about shit that happened when you were in nappies.  And manic depressive, thats the celebrities favourite fuckin' ailment cuz it fits really well into the personality type of an aggressive abusive cunt that doesn't respond well to pressure.  Did gallons of drugs, again, Axl is not reknowned for his drug taking, in fact he's on record as being quite judicious with it.  Having a chip on your shoulder isn't the same as being mentally ill.  Now do I think its possible that he does have mental issues?  Yeah, I think so but at the same time I haven't seen any evidence in any of his behaviour to suggest it was as profound as a lot of what is used to excuse away certain aspects of his behaviour.  All in all your not wrong, it ain't for me to judge but what I can do is respond to judgements that appear spurious when they are presented to me.  And its like I said earlier, if you're THAT mentally ill maybe just like not make music, not tour?  I mean if the shit effects you THAT bad then your well being is more important than making music, at least to my mind.

 

Edited March 15, 2019 by Len Cnut

[SoulMonster]

1 hour ago, Len Cnut said:

I mean if the shit effects you THAT bad then your well being is more important than making music, at least to my mind.

But isn't that the point? He didn't want to tour. He didn't feel he was ready. And one might argue that evidence indicated he wasn't ready. Yet he was pressured and eventually agreed to do it. I mean, sure that is on him, but people around should perhaps also burden some of that responsibility since they knew what state he was in, they knew it was risky (if not immediately then at least as the tour progressed). Just dismissing Axl's behavior because he was an asshole is not really fair, in my opinion, he was obviously an asshole with huge issues.

[Len Cnut]

16 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

But isn't that the point? He didn't want to tour. He didn't feel he was ready. And one might argue that evidence indicated he wasn't ready. Yet he was pressured and eventually agreed to do it. I mean, sure that is on him, but people around should perhaps also burden some of that responsibility since they knew what state he was in, they knew it was risky (if not immediately then at least as the tour progressed). Just dismissing Axl's behavior because he was an asshole is not really fair, in my opinion, he was obviously an asshole with huge issues.

So basically, he shouldn't've been on the illusions tour, weren't ready for releasing Chi Dem...basically nothing he's done since Appetite and Lies he was up for, that sounds a lot to me like not liking or being able to do what your job/occupation is.  So jack it in, seems pretty simple to me, what you quoted there isn't me dismissing his behaviour because he was an arsehole, its me sort of looking out for the guy. 

[SoulMonster]

1 minute ago, Len Cnut said:

So basically, he shouldn't've been on the illusions tour, weren't ready for releasing Chi Dem...basically nothing he's done since Appetite and Lies he was up for, that sounds a lot to me like not liking or being able to do what your job/occupation is.  So jack it in, seems pretty simple to me, what you quoted there isn't me dismissing his behaviour because he was an arsehole, its me sort of looking out for the guy. 

Maybe he should have quit. Maybe all of us who have enjoyed what he has managed to achieve in his career as a musician, despite his obvious problems, are grateful he didn't. Maybe he himself has found some peace and is happy for not giving up despite his struggles. Maybe his mental issues prevented him for making the right decision to just quit and not go on tour and maybe someone around him should have helped him make that right decision. Instead the label wanted the tour to help get UYIs out and to earn money, Slash needed to tour to get away from temptations, Duff wanted the money and the fame, the hangers-on wanted the windfall that would come from the band getting rich, etc etc. I just find it problematic to blame people who are mentally unfit to make good decisions, for making bad decisions.

Again, not saying Axl wasn't an asshole, too, but having done a bit of research on this period I find it pretty obvious that Axl was mentally unbalanced as the UYI touring started and as it progressed, at least in 1991.

 

[Modano09]

3 hours ago, Len Cnut said:

Its really not, the majority of the world do it every day...but you don't hear about those people cuz they don't wear kilts and run up and down ramps and make you feel all tingley when they sing sweet love songs.  The fact that you yourself do it should tell you something.  Its nothing as dramatic as 'confront and conquer', its called doing your fuckin' job, just like everybody else in the world has to.

I don't buy that shit.  Raped by his father, says who?  I'll tell you says who, says regression therapy, you know what regression therapy is?  Some guy sits you on a couch and makes you try and unlock memories from when you were way too young to remember shit.  More than that I think it was irresponsible of Axl to go around claiming he was raped at aged 2 because his fuckin' regression therapist told him so, thats some poor blokes reputation and good name he is putting on the chopping block based on a bunch of new age bullshit, 'regression therapy' is not conventional or textbook psychology, its hokey shit, most especially when its talking about shit that happened when you were in nappies.  And manic depressive, thats the celebrities favourite fuckin' ailment cuz it fits really well into the personality type of an aggressive abusive cunt that doesn't respond well to pressure.  Did gallons of drugs, again, Axl is not reknowned for his drug taking, in fact he's on record as being quite judicious with it.  Having a chip on your shoulder isn't the same as being mentally ill.  Now do I think its possible that he does have mental issues?  Yeah, I think so but at the same time I haven't seen any evidence in any of his behaviour to suggest it was as profound as a lot of what is used to excuse away certain aspects of his behaviour.  All in all your not wrong, it ain't for me to judge but what I can do is respond to judgements that appear spurious when they are presented to me.  And its like I said earlier, if you're THAT mentally ill maybe just like not make music, not tour?  I mean if the shit effects you THAT bad then your well being is more important than making music, at least to my mind.

 

Let's not make "he wasn't raped because I say so" a thing.

[Len Cnut]

1 minute ago, Modano09 said:

Let's not make "he wasn't raped because I say so" a thing.

I didn’t say he wasn’t raped, I said I don’t buy it, meaning I don’t believe it.  Quite frankly I think its ridiculous claiming to remember shit from when you were 2 years old.  These ‘therapists’ get paid a great deal of money per hour to tell famous crackpots what they want to hear.

[Modano09]

3 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

I didn’t say he wasn’t raped, I said I don’t buy it, meaning I don’t believe it.  Quite frankly I think its ridiculous claiming to remember shit from when you were 2 years old.  These ‘therapists’ get paid a great deal of money per hour to tell famous crackpots what they want to hear.

So you didn't say he wasn't raped, just that you don't believe it?

[Len Cnut]

14 minutes ago, Modano09 said:

So you didn't say he wasn't raped, just that you don't believe it?

Precisely.  I can't say for a mathematical certainty because I wasn't there, in the same way he can't say as a certainty because he can't possibly remember shit from that long ago. 

Edited March 15, 2019 by Len Cnut

[EvanG]

I don't think it's impossible to remember stuff from when you were 2 years old for some people.

[Len Cnut]

11 minutes ago, EvanG said:

I don't think it's impossible to remember stuff from when you were 2 years old for some people.

I'd think long and hard before levelling an accusation like that on someone like he did based on 'regression therapy' is alls I'm saying.

[EvanG]

5 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

I'd think long and hard before levelling an accusation like that on someone like he did based on 'regression therapy' is alls I'm saying.

Who is to say that his accusation is merely based on regression therapy? Maybe he confronted his family with this after finding out and they confirmed it. I mean, I don't know.

[SoulMonster]

4 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

I'd think long and hard before levelling an accusation like that on someone like he did based on 'regression therapy' is alls I'm saying.

I don't think he was raped, either, but as far as the overall discussions goes, that Axl was a fucked up individual with mental issues, then it doesn't really stand or fall on whether that is true or not. He definitely had a difficult childhood and, in my opinion, wasn't mentally fit for the UYI touring in 1991. Just saying that he should carried on is easy for us to say, maybe not as much for the one with the issues.

As for regression therapy, I agree with you, it is a load of bullshit, especially claims that it can unlock memories going back to the time of conception (!). But interestingly enough, Axl was challenged on both his trust in the results of regression therapy and how his accusations would affect second parties, especially his family, in the interview he did with Musician Magazine in 1991.

Just FYI, here is what Axl responded when asked how he could be true those rape memories were factual and not just imaginary:

"I have a lot of corroboration from people who knew something horrible happened. Even now I could talk about it with my grandmother and she'd nod her head yes, but would not talk about it. Also, the emotions that end up surfacing and the amount of weight that is lifted each time we get into certain issues kind of makes me go, "Wait a minute, I can trust myself here." I can trust myself because I feel a hell of a lot better. I mean, you could go to a medium and talk to someone in your family who had died and when you come out you'll feel much different. Someone will say, "Was it real?" and you'll say, "I don't know, but I know I feel a lot easier with the situation and acting on it isn't going to hurt me" [Musician, June 1992].

So he is basically agreeing that it isn't necessarily true, but that believing it is true helps him. And presumably, since his biological father was assumed dead at the time, he probably didn't think a false accusation of rape would have any victims. Of course, I disagree with that.

But when asked if it couldn't hurt his family who "allowed" it to happen, and if not therefore he would need more than just results from regression therapy to throw accusations, he responded:

"Oh yeah. My sister is involved with my life and works with me, so I know what happened there [Axl accused his step-father for having molested his sister]. I know what reaction my mom has to dealing with any of it. Her eyes turn black. It's complete anger and she will fight to the death to not have to re-experience that. That somewhat justifies it. The physical damage manifesting itself is another thing that puts it together. Certain thought patterns are there that would have no reason to be there unless something happened. I don't believe too many people are born evil or born fucked up. Something had to happen somewhere. You go back and find the time that something happened and work through and finally find the base underneath. And by letting it go, all of a sudden you don't have certain problems in your life. That somehow validates the situation" [Musician, June 1992].

But anyway, this is a digression from the overall discussion on whether he was fit or not.

[SoulMonster]

I am of course writing about this, and although this is hugely "under construction" and really poorly written and blah blah blah, and missing quotes from after July 1992, and needs some serious editing and restructuring, it might still be of interest to others: http://www.a-4-d.com/t2847p90-the-history-of-guns-n-roses-in-their-own-words#12520

[Blackstar]

Axl had been prescribed medication for manic depression (lithium). This is at least an indication as far as his mental issues go, although no one here can determine what he had exactly. Then, in the Illusions period, he opted for (regression) therapy and other "alternative" treatments instead of conventional treatment, probably because he thought they worked better for him and made him feel better in dealing with what was wrong with him (as he himself had said, see quote from Musician magazine @SoulMonster posted above).

As for the child abuse story he told, parts of it are true, documented in the local press at the time they happened (the kidnapping part and some other things about his father, who had some serious issues and his reputation was anything but good). The abuse part could have just been a "recreated" false memory that was "inserted" and mixed with real events through regression therapy - but who knows, really. (There's also the possibility that Axl told that story instead of another he didn't want to go public with or that he didn't tell the full story, because Tom Zutaut has mentioned a different abuse story that Axl hasn't talked about publicly). But what is relevant to this topic of discussion is that Axl believed that he was abused.

Edited March 15, 2019 by Blackstar

[Len Cnut]

So he's not sure either but he's alright with putting it out there regardless?  Well that tells you what he's about then, doesn't it? 

[SoulMonster]

27 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

So he's not sure either but he's alright with putting it out there regardless?  Well that tells you what he's about then, doesn't it? 

That he's an asshole? Uhm, yes likely, but that doesn't mean that he wasn't mentally unstable and not fit to tour. 

[Len Cnut]

14 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

That he's an asshole? Uhm, yes likely, but that doesn't mean that he wasn't mentally unstable and not fit to tour. 

yes but I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about very specific parts of whats been mentioned in this thread, the thread in and of itself doesn't really interest me.

[Scream of the Butterfly]

The way Axl told the story it certainly sounded like a classic case of a false memory. I have little doubt he was abused in some manner but the logic he went by is just terrible. It's like Donald Trump and his alternative facts.

[Len Cnut]

The problem with the notion of self examination for the purpose of understanding why you are the way you are is that if you're not from a place that is pure of heart then its a pointless exercise.  If you're just looking to blame him, her and them to excuse the fact that you act like a cunt then its pointless.  And quite frankly therapists, especially ones that cater to mega rich fuckers, they ain't fuckin' dumb either, the money is in keeping these fuckers coming back and the way you do that is by telling em what they want to hear, people like that are a fuckin' goldmine for unscrupulous sunshine state therapists cuz their work goes on ad infinitum.  The idea of therapy is finding out why you are the way you are so you can come to terms with it and reconcile yourself emotionally so you can move forward and live a fruitful life.  Some of these celebrities are in analysis damn near all their lives and fuck all comes of it, Marlon Brando is an example of that, a man who had extensive therapy from the very very early stages of his fame and continued to do so well into old age and claims to have achieved nothing.  Mike Tyson is another example, he said 'i left those guys crazier than when I came in', he's another guy diagnosed as manic depressive and bi-polar when there weren't fuck all wrong with him really except arrogance and aggression...sound familiar? 

[killuridols]

5 hours ago, Len Cnut said:

So basically, he shouldn't've been on the illusions tour, weren't ready for releasing Chi Dem...basically nothing he's done since Appetite and Lies he was up for, that sounds a lot to me like not liking or being able to do what your job/occupation is.  So jack it in, seems pretty simple to me, what you quoted there isn't me dismissing his behaviour because he was an arsehole, its me sort of looking out for the guy. 

I've always had the feeling of Axl being someone who didn't like to work AT ALL. He wasn't like Duff, who had a normal job and payed his rent. Axl always lived off other people, whether it was women or friends. It was only after he made it big with music that he could afford a home of his own and maintain himself.

In my theory, this is the reason why he doesn't give a fuck about releasing new music anymore...... he was lucky enough to make it REALLY big, with not so much effort, in a relatively short amount of time, during his prime years. That was enough for him to never have to work again.

The Beatles, Stones and all those people you mentioned before, they give me the impression of loving art above everything else.
Axl seems to hate having to write songs, making albums, in a nutshell... making music is a drag for him.
That's why his current shit is to sing his past glories, tons of 'covers', or replace the frontman of another big band.

Axl is a man of luck, with the way he is, chances are he would be dead by now or living in the streets. LIke you said before, most of us, most people have to 'eat it' when they have problems. We go to work carrying a heavy load of personal problems and also have to face a lot of shit at the work place. Then we go back to our homes and struggle the whole month to make ends meet.
Most of us hardly ever solve our mental/personal issues and that's why we end up dying at 42 of a heart attack or a stroke.

Bottom line is it doesn't matter whether he can or cannot do his job anymore. He's been set up for life since he turned 30 years old.
Now if we worry about his reputation as an artist, yeah, he sucks and he cannot be compared to anyone in Beatles or the Stones.
Axl will always be a lazy dude who was blessed with his voice and having been at the right place in the right moment.
Most of us will never experience such an alignment of planets.

[lame ass security]

2 hours ago, killuridols said:

I've always had the feeling of Axl being someone who didn't like to work AT ALL. He wasn't like Duff, who had a normal job and payed his rent. Axl always lived off other people, whether it was women or friends. It was only after he made it big with music that he could afford a home of his own and maintain himself.

In my theory, this is the reason why he doesn't give a fuck about releasing new music anymore...... he was lucky enough to make it REALLY big, with not so much effort, in a relatively short amount of time, during his prime years. That was enough for him to never have to work again.

The Beatles, Stones and all those people you mentioned before, they give me the impression of loving art above everything else.
Axl seems to hate having to write songs, making albums, in a nutshell... making music is a drag for him.
That's why his current shit is to sing his past glories, tons of 'covers', or replace the frontman of another big band.

Axl is a man of luck, with the way he is, chances are he would be dead by now or living in the streets. LIke you said before, most of us, most people have to 'eat it' when they have problems. We go to work carrying a heavy load of personal problems and also have to face a lot of shit at the work place. Then we go back to our homes and struggle the whole month to make ends meet.
Most of us hardly ever solve our mental/personal issues and that's why we end up dying at 42 of a heart attack or a stroke.

Bottom line is it doesn't matter whether he can or cannot do his job anymore. He's been set up for life since he turned 30 years old.
Now if we worry about his reputation as an artist, yeah, he sucks and he cannot be compared to anyone in Beatles or the Stones.
Axl will always be a lazy dude who was blessed with his voice and having been at the right place in the right moment.
Most of us will never experience such an alignment of planets.

Man, you made some great points there.  But someone like McCartney can write a song while he brushes his teeth, he just has that knack.  He loves what he does because he's great at it and it seems effortless for him.  Plus, everything he wrote wasn't great, there's a lot of mediocre material there.  And to say that Axl sucks as an artist isn't true, in my opinion..  He's just not as prolific as McCartney or Jagger.  But some of the other things you stated about Axl's lifestyle I agree with.

[killuridols]

27 minutes ago, lame ass security said:

Plus, everything he wrote wasn't great, there's a lot of mediocre material there.

It's impossible that an artist like McCartney, with all the time he's been around, can make every single song a great tune.... but no one is asking for that either.... the virtue is in the man being prolific, focused, stable, long term stuff.... just like Slash.

29 minutes ago, lame ass security said:

And to say that Axl sucks as an artist isn't true, in my opinion.. 

Well, I didn't say that Axl sucks as an artist...... I said (read again) that his reputation as an artist is not the best of things.... Maybe reputation is not the right word. Um... the correct word would be career path, his evolution as a musician and artist stopped at some point and here he is, approaching his 60s, living off the past glories he produced 30 years ago.

[lame ass security]

14 minutes ago, killuridols said:

It's impossible that an artist like McCartney, with all the time he's been around, can make every single song a great tune.... but no one is asking for that either.... the virtue is in the man being prolific, focused, stable, long term stuff.... just like Slash.

Well, I didn't say that Axl sucks as an artist...... I said (read again) that his reputation as an artist is not the best of things.... Maybe reputation is not the right word. Um... the correct word would be career path, his evolution as a musician and artist stopped at some point and here he is, approaching his 60s, living off the past glories he produced 30 years ago.

"Focused", "stable"  "long term stuff" are you talking about a rock singer or potential husband material?

[sidman69]

On 3/14/2019 at 7:15 AM, Blackstar said:

He was also talking from the stage about Niven having booked the tour early, as well as about not being in the mood to play:

Axl: I know you guys don’t wanna hear a lot of bullshit raps, so I’ll explain real quickly what we’re doing with these shows here. Due to the pressure from my – how should I say it – ex-manager, who wanted to make sure we toured and didn’t give a fuck to watch about when the record was done - so we’re out here before the record is done. But it’s a good thing. And we want to make sure that we are not ripping you people off and when we come out you get the most [...] [Richfield, OH, USA June 4, 1991]

Axl: Due to an over-excited manager we’re out on tour. But that excited manager is now fired, so... I don’t mind so much being out on tour, but I would’ve liked to get my record done. And since we’ve all waited such a fucking long time, we figure we’ll play it on the tour whether you’ve heard it or not [...] [Landover, MD, USA June 20, 1991]

Axl: We’ve been pairing the old and the new [songs], since we are out on this tour since we had an over-excited ex-manager, or rather greedy ex-manager. I love that word, “ex”. Ex-wife, ex-manager... [...] [Costa Mesa, CA, USA July 25, 1991]

Axl: Have you ever been let down by – I don’t know – family, friends, something you wanted... or maybe just life in general. You know the mood I’m talking about; when something you like - maybe your friends were over or something you like comes on fucking TV... something you like, but you don’t care, cuz you’re just not in the mood, it doesn’t matter, you’ve been let down. I mean, it’s kind of like, this band, Nirvana, why this "Teen Spirit," why is this song such a success? People relate to being let down. 
They say, “Oh, why are you always late?” I don’t know, maybe I’m always in a bad fuckin’ mood about something. This is my life, this is my love, and sometimes it doesn’t mean anything to me, cuz I’m just too fucking bummed out. You know how that feels? You know how that feels, right? Sometimes there’s a lot of people trying to help make sure that you’re so fucking bummed out, that you can’t do something like have a rock show. [Chandler, AZ, USA February 1, 1992]

 

damn dude i need to have you help me with these videos

[killuridols]

4 minutes ago, lame ass security said:

"Focused", "stable"  "long term stuff" are you talking about a rock singer or potential husband material?