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What was Offsrpings beef with GnR?

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Just now, Len Cnut said:

I've said that often on this forum and its never really noted, when I was growing up it was laughable to be into Guns n Roses, I think I was the only fan in my school and I got slaughtered for it.  Everyone was into rave and drum n bass and jungle.  Its worth noting though that English tastes have always been more cutting edge and we're generally a very small island so perhaps the world at large was a fair deal different.  I was into The Pistols and Happy Mondays and Sonic Youth and Nirvana too though. 

The Americans had the sub pop Seattle scene which was originally a punk scene but it sort of developed into grunge.

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

The Americans had the sub pop Seattle scene which was originally a punk scene but it sort of developed into grunge.

As with any scene I find that like...its always like 5 or 6 core bands that are brilliant and the rest either have a few good tunes.  The grunge era, to me, Nirvana, Mudhoney, only worthwhile bands.  The 60s had the best bands I think where you had an incredible amount of quality in a short period...followed by the late 70s punk scene.

Edited by Len Cnut

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3 hours ago, Len Cnut said:

I've said that often on this forum and its never really noted, when I was growing up it was laughable to be into Guns n Roses, I think I was the only fan in my school and I got slaughtered for it.  Everyone was into rave and drum n bass and jungle.  Its worth noting though that English tastes have always been more cutting edge and we're generally a very small island so perhaps the world at large was a fair deal different.  I was into The Pistols and Happy Mondays and Sonic Youth and Nirvana too though. 

I used to get comments about listening gnr aswell, i sometimes still get comments or strange looks when wearing shorts because i have a gnr tattoo on my leg lol

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I'm under the impression that Americans have a narrower definition of what a rock band is compared to the UK. With Guns N' Roses, as well with the Seattle bands, there is consensus everywhere that they are rock bands and then it's debatable how "great" rock bands they are/were; whereas bands like The Smiths, Stone Roses, Happy Mondays etc. don't fit into the narrower definition of rock, so they didn't have an impact in N.A.

Sub Pop broke and was hyped in the UK and the rest of Europe first in the late 80s, when in the U.S. it was still a local thing (with the exception of Soundgarden, which was more hard rock oriented than punk and was already signed to a major). Mudhoney was seen as the new cool underground band in Europe, followed by the Screaming Trees and Nirvana. Those Seattle bands had different backgrounds and they weren't all underground as in indie (Pearl Jam and AIC had a glam/metal background and debuted in major labels), but they were all put under the same label ("grunge") just because they came from the same city, and they were also all labeled "alternative". Some of the older underground bands had also a bigger following in Europe (the Pixies, for example, were signed on an English indie label). I think the bands that had elements of what would be vaguely considered "alternative" in the 90s and had an increasing following in the U.S., bigger than the college rock circuit, before Seattle broke, were the Red Hot Chili Peppers and Jane's Addiction; and R.E.M., which was the first band with indie origins that had mainstream success.

The core audience of the underground bands would snub Guns N' Roses, but when some of those bands had mainstream success, their bigger audience were the same people that listened to Guns N' Roses, unless in the case of kids who had just started exploring music. Something similar had happened with Guns N' Roses themselves, as a big part of their audience were people that were listening to Motley Crue, Poison etc. It was a continuum and an evolution, and Guns N' Roses were the bridge, I think. Also, in the U.S., metal/hard rock and American hardcore punk had kind of merged by the late 80s; the underground punk-influenced bands of that time, e.g. Sonic Youth, had a more experimental orientation.

1 hour ago, DownUnderScott said:

But I too liked the bands that paved the way for them like Sonic Youth, punk bands, Mudhoney, Mother Love Bone and even here in Australia we had Cosmic Psychos and Beasts of Bourbon.

Those Aussie bands had a following here in Greece. I own a few records. Before Mudhoney, Australia had the only scene in the mid-late 80s where you could find that underground dirty garage punk/rock 'n' roll sound. Sonic Youth, the Pixies etc. as well as some British post-punk/dark wave bands were great, but more "collegiate". (Straight, pure rock 'n' roll was generally rare in that 80s, both in the mainstream and the underground, and I think Guns N' Roses filled a gap there by blending raw-edge elements into traditional rock).

I love the "other 80s" more than the 90s. Maybe it's because it was "my time", I don't know, but I think those older bands were superior than the "alternative" bands of the 90s, just the timing didn't allow them to gain broader recognition. There was also a genuine indie ethos, and brilliant albums by bands like Husker Du and Wipers had demo quality production on purpose because they didn't want to be polished, which didn't allow them to be more accessible.

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16 minutes ago, scottish nutter said:

I used to get comments about listening gnr aswell, i sometimes still get comments or strange looks when wearing shorts because i have a gnr tattoo on my leg lol

Either that or you got a cracking set of pins Selena :lol:

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13 hours ago, Len Cnut said:

:lol:

 

13 hours ago, Len Cnut said:

:lol:

 

13 hours ago, DownUnderScott said:

For sure, spot on there. I always thought that was such a shame, I mean Axl even expressed strong positive support for a lot of those bands and they treated him with contempt. Now that they've all matured, or killed themselves, there's probably some that are still alive that actually respect Axl and what Guns achieved. 

I think Eddie Vedder Is the only one who matured and he expressed a lot of empathy for Axl in ‘92. The rest did kill themselves directky or indirectly.

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12 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

I think Guns are probably about the uncoolest band in the world - probably just behind Kiss and Crue. 

Kiss has to be the number one. How can you take a band seriously that sells fucking caskets with their faces splattered in the side. 

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14 hours ago, Len Cnut said:

I'm not sure, I'd have to think about it.  I guess its one of those things where there are a number of lines of reasoning and you more or less have to pick one that suits your feelings.  There are those that argue that when a genre stops growing you look to its last bout of substantial growth and then go 'OK, THATS the last the great one' (obviously liking them is a pre-requisite), there are those that say that the last ones to fulfill a certain archetype admirably are the last great one (which I suppose GnR could fit the bill for), there are others who judge this shit by popularity, others still who measure it by the last ones to expand on it in an influential manner.  I'm probably not the best person to answer the question, perhaps you're better positioned, I know you like more rock music than me, I mean its worth noting I don't like bands like Pink Floyd, not particularly fond of Zep or Aerosmith or Van Halen, perhaps I'm not even qualified to judge, perhaps you're better positioned for that.  To me though, The Stooges are a potential shout, for the simple fact that they took rock to a place where...it kinda couldn't and didn't get any better, at least for me.  And there are a great many who agree with me.  Since I was never much into the big hair, big solos brigade who make up a sizeable portion of what others consider to be great rock bands I'm a bad person to judge. 

Where GnR are fall short, to me, in the field of great rock bands is that they weren't really doing anything new, there was nothing fresh or cutting edge about them, they were more familiar and derivative, which isn't a bad thing, to some point everything is derivative of something.  The Stones are almost entirely derivative and I think the sun shines out of their bumholes.  I'm sorry, I'm not really answering your question very well, I guess the answer is that there are a number of answers, some say Oasis are the last great rock band, I don't really agree.  The Happy Mondays maybe?  I think they're a pretty solid shout, definitely unique, had all the insanity and drugs and rebellious shit, did some reasonably new shit with it.  I dunno, perhaps my ticklist criteria is bullshit, perhaps the most important thing about music is how you feel it and you many people feel it, thats a power and a greatness in and of itself maybe.  By that rationale though a lot of people were feeling The Spice Girls.  I guess my answer is that I can't really settle on an opinion in this matter.  The Sex Pistols perhaps?  They were pretty explosive, rebellious, controversial, cracking tunes, made a strong singular statement and then exploded.  Seems like a pretty solid full stop on it.  But then they were pretty derivative musically too, though the entire package was reasonably unique.

You tend towards a deeper analysis for music than I do, and I often learn a new perspective from you, but I believe GNR are the last band to leave a global impact. It’s kinda moot I suppose because rock isn’t interesting as it was once. Actually, probably Pearl Jam and the rest of the group we’re the last great rock bands. After the 90’s music shifted, which is cool. Rock had its time and will always be influential, though. As far as guitarist go for example, I strongly believe John Frusciante is the last incredible guitar player. Maybe Jack White. 

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15 minutes ago, The Holographic Universe said:

You tend towards a deeper analysis for music than I do, and I often learn a new perspective from you, but I believe GNR are the last band to leave a global impact. It’s kinda moot I suppose because rock isn’t interesting as it was once. Actually, probably Pearl Jam and the rest of the group we’re the last great rock bands. After the 90’s music shifted, which is cool. Rock had its time and will always be influential, though. As far as guitarist go for example, I strongly believe John Frusciante is the last incredible guitar player. Maybe Jack White. 

Speaking of great guitarists, did anyone catch America Salutes you: Guitar Legends 2 on AXS TV last night?  It was really good.  Someone who I had forgotten about but is awesome is Vernon Reid.  Damn, he did a scorching Crosstown Traffic.  I was kind of half paying attention early in the show when I heard a woman doing Black Magic Woman, I looked up and it was Gloria Estefan's daughter, Emily.  She looks just like her mom and she did a really solid job on the song.

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4 hours ago, The Holographic Universe said:

Kiss has to be the number one. How can you take a band seriously that sells fucking caskets with their faces splattered in the side. 

As cringy as it sounds i want to be buried in one.

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The were too popular, too pretentious, and Axl was a major cunt.

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15 minutes ago, -W.A.R- said:

The were too popular, too pretentious, and Axl was a major cunt.

I don’t think GNR were ever pretentious. The Seattle bands were pretentious in how serious they took themselves. 

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, The Holographic Universe said:

Hey man, that’s cool. I think Dimebag was buried in one. It’s just bizarre to me that a band would have caskets. 

Yep both him and vinny. Well kiss unlike gnr at least give the fans something.

Edited by Sydney Fan

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12 hours ago, The Holographic Universe said:

I don’t think GNR were ever pretentious. The Seattle bands were pretentious in how serious they took themselves. 

The trilogy videos, the 10 minute ballads, the big production shows - GNR kinda got full of themselves and while fans may enjoy that stuff, it was easy to make fun of.

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12 hours ago, The Holographic Universe said:

I don’t think GNR were ever pretentious. The Seattle bands were pretentious in how serious they took themselves. 

I don't have a problem with pretentious myself, from GnR or otherwise, the concept of standing listening to a somebody communicating to you with musical accompaniment coupled with the idea that they have something worthwhile to say over and above the average shit-shoveller is kind of pretentious in general if you think about it, we're kind of in the arena of pretentiousness to begin with with this shit.  Rock singers, their lyrics and the interpretation of them, reminds of that Nietsczhe thing of muddying the waters to appear deeper than they are.

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Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, Edward Nygma said:

When did the Grunge era officially demise?

I reckon by end of 95. In 96 is when alternative and   nu metal was starting to get noticed. Which lasted up until 99. I still think if gnr had released an album in 96 despite grunge ending and numetall starting if would have done exceptionally well. I wonder in 95- 96 if gnr were going through an identity crisis?.

Edited by Sydney Fan
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Usually when a band takes a swipe at gnr it's jealousy at play. Most bands have to bust their arses to get any media coverage or have their music heard, gnr barely do anything and that burns people, be in Offspring, bon Jovi or whoever. 

Axl wore it better😋

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13 minutes ago, Sydney Fan said:

I wonder in 95- 96 if gnr were going through an identity crisis?.

Havent you heard Chinese Democracy? They disbanded because of a identity crisis. Axls identity crisis.

I strongly believe had GNR released a great album in 95 or 96 it could've changed the fate of "classic rock", that was kind of dead at the time. 

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8 minutes ago, Sydney Fan said:

I reckon by end of 95. In 96 is when alternative and   nu metal was starting to get noticed. 

Weren't those grunge bands considered alternative? Because they didn't call themselves ''grunge'', no one even knew what it meant, except a name given to rock bands from Washington, but then all of a sudden every band that wasn't just metal, hardrock or punk was called ''grunge'' after that. Bands like Bush and Silverchair were massive by the mid and late 90's and they hated being called grunge.

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, EvanG said:

Weren't those grunge bands considered alternative? Because they didn't call themselves ''grunge'', no one even knew what it meant, except a name given to rock bands from Washington, but then all of a sudden every band that wasn't just metal, hardrock or punk was called ''grunge'' after that. Bands like Bush and Silverchair were massive by the mid and late 90's and they hated being called grunge.

I remember reading somewhere, that the word grunge was just a marketing term used to describe the bands that appeared from Seattle area during those years, whether their music was similar or not. With that term they could be slapped together and sold more easily to people. Kind of like a fashion label. According to that theory,  subgenre called grunge does not really exist.  

 

Edited by Fourteenbeers

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Fourteenbeers said:

I remember reading somewhere, that the word grunge was just a marketing term used to describe the bands that appeared from Seattle area during those years, whether their music was similar or not. With that term they could be slapped together and sold more easily to people. Kind of like a fashion label. According to that theory,  subgenre called grunge does not really exist.  

 

Could be! I believe it was Everett True, a journalist, who first came up with that term because to him all those bands from that area sounded dirty and raw or something. Those bands didn't like being called that way because most bands from that area sounded pretty different.

Edited by EvanG
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12 minutes ago, EvanG said:

Weren't those grunge bands considered alternative? Because they didn't call themselves ''grunge'', no one even knew what it meant, except a name given to rock bands from Washington, but then all of a sudden every band that wasn't just metal, hardrock or punk was called ''grunge'' after that. Bands like Bush and Silverchair were massive by the mid and late 90's and they hated being called grunge.

Silverchair = Nirvana in Pyjamas.

That is why they were called grunge!

I don't even know what grunge means!

 

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Just now, DK6 said:

Silverchair = Nirvana in Pyjamas.

That is why they were called grunge!

I don't even know what grunge means!

 

Silverchair were way too metal at first to be Nirvana in pyjamas. The only comparison was that they were a threesome and the singer had shoulder length unwashed blonde hair like Kurt. 

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