Len Cnut Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 16 minutes ago, EvanG said: I already reacted to this yesterday. I know plenty of rock lyrics that are enjoyable to read even without the music. (of course it's better with music, because they are SONG LYRICS not real poetry) There's a difference between enjoying reading something and it being poetically substantial, I enjoy reading Andy Capp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 Just now, Len Cnut said: Again, none of the above is really much more complex than any number of very basic very cliched love songs. Its a departure from just going 'i love you i love you i love you i cant live without you' but how many love songs are REALLY that basic? Well, that the Supremes song for one And my whole point was to argue the statement that SCOM wasn't more complex than that song. It is. Undeniably. That being said, I find SCOM emotionally much mure complex than the vast majority of love songs. Just now, Len Cnut said: There's a difference between enjoying reading something and it being poetically substantial, I enjoy reading Andy Capp. Elitist! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 12 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: Well, that the Supremes song for one And my whole point was to argue the statement that SCOM wasn't more complex than that song. It is. Undeniably. Predicated on, OK, the notion that there is a complexity there based on whats he running from, whats he need to hide from, well shit in baby love she talks about 'why you do me like you do', what could she be talking about there, what has he done to her that she's wants him still despite of? I mean the assumption is leaving her but its not really made clear. See how you can do that with even the simplest of lyrics? Baby Love is very basic as songs go and has more to do with, as I've said before, presentation, the way its sung, who its sung by, a fit bird like Diana Ross begging her man to stay = instant record sales. Shit, the man in my avatar is considered the gold standard for simple juvenile delinquent meathead music and China Girl is more lyrically complex than SCOM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvanG Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Len Cnut said: Again, none of the above is really much more complex than any number of very basic very cliched love songs. Its a departure from just going 'i love you i love you i love you i cant live without you' but how many love songs are REALLY that basic? I could sit here and wrangle more complexity out of I Wannabe Your Dog by The Stooges and I wouldn't call that poetically complex. You agree that SCOM is at least more complex and less sappy than Izzy's lyrics, right? 9 minutes ago, Len Cnut said: There's a difference between enjoying reading something and it being poetically substantial, I enjoy reading Andy Capp. I never argued that. Edited March 28, 2019 by EvanG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 18 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: Well, that the Supremes song for one And my whole point was to argue the statement that SCOM wasn't more complex than that song. It is. Undeniably. That being said, I find SCOM emotionally much mure complex than the vast majority of love songs. Elitist! You should probably google Andy Capp before making that comment Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 Quote You agree that SCOM is at least more complex and less sappy than Izzy's lyrics, right? No. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvanG Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 2 minutes ago, Len Cnut said: No. Oh Len... I think you're trolling. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 (edited) 12 minutes ago, EvanG said: Oh Len... I think you're trolling. I'm quite serious, SCOM is no more lyrically or poetically complex than a bog standard love song and there is nothing in the lyrics of it to suggest so, again, this doesn't mean they are bad lyrics or its a bad song, I've stated already I love the song and the solo I think is one of the best I've ever heard...but at the same time I don't really suffer from this malaise where I find myself needing to elevate something to an unfitting level of substantiality based on the fact that I find it enjoyable, to be honest it really doesn't need it, its brilliant for what it is. Edited March 28, 2019 by Len Cnut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 Just now, Len Cnut said: Predicated on, OK, the notion that there is a complexity there based on whats he running from, whats he need to hide from, well shit in baby love she talks about 'why you do me like you do', what could she be talking about there, what has he done to her that she's wants him still despite of? I mean the assumption is leaving her but its not really made clear. See how you can do that with even the simplest of lyrics? Baby Love is just about someone loving someone but apparently that love is not being returned anymore. That is it. OF COURSE you can speculate about what has happened to ruin the relationship. That doesn't make it complex on any level. If so, the less a song is about the more complex it is SCOM is childhood reminiscing dressed as a love song, using the appearance of his girlfriend to trigger memories good and bad. And the memories are only barely resolved lyrically but makes more sense as the songs concludes. Again, undeniably on a completely different level than Baby Love just from the dual thematic nature alone. As far as description of love goes, it also runs circles around Baby Love. Ask yourself, if you were to send the lyrics of these two songs to a professor of literature, and ask him/her to say which one is lyrically more complex, do you honestly think Baby Love would be picked? 7 minutes ago, Len Cnut said: You should probably google Andy Capp before making that comment I wasn't talking about Andy Capp, which I have read, but you talking about "poetically substantial" lyrics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 4 minutes ago, EvanG said: Oh Len... I think you're trolling. I actually think his dislike of Axl Rose means he can't judge the lyrics objectively. It's the Diesel syndrome! 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 Quote Baby Love is just about someone loving someone but apparently that love is not being returned anymore. That is it. OF COURSE you can speculate about what has happened to ruin the relationship. That doesn't make it complex on any level. If so, the less a song is about the more complex it is SCOM is childhood reminiscing dressed as a love song, using the appearance of his girlfriend to trigger memories good and bad. And the memories are only barely resolved lyrically but makes more sense as the songs concludes. Again, undeniably on a completely different level than Baby Love just from the dual thematic nature alone. As far as description of love goes, it also runs circles around Baby Love. But you speculating that Axls seeking shelter is perhaps a reference to some sort of abuse or something is substantial? C'mon. Shit, if you wanna extemporise about this shit all it requires is a little imagination, you could argue that Baby Love is bordering on sadomasochistic and bang, we're into a whole new territory. Quote Ask yourself, if you were to send the lyrics of these two songs to a professor of literature, and ask him/her to say which one is lyrically more complex, do you honestly think Baby Love would be picked? I think he'd find me and kick me in the bollocks for wasting his time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvanG Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 4 minutes ago, Len Cnut said: I'm quite serious, SCOM is not lyrically or poetically complex than a bog standard love song and there is nothing in the lyrics of it to suggest so, again, this doesn't mean they are bad lyrics or its a bad song, I've stated already I love the song and the solo I think is one of the best I've ever heard...but at the same time I don't really suffer from this malaise where I find myself needing to elevate something to an unfitting level of substantiality based on the fact that I find it enjoyable, to be honest it really doesn't need it, its brilliant for what it is. I thought the argument was that SCOM is more complex and less sappy than Think About You and Patience? Because if you can't see that, then, well, I just don't know... Sweet Child is sappy too and it's not the best lyric ever written, no one is saying that, but it's more original and complex than those cheesy Izzy lines, the same ones you can find in any song by any boy and girlbands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 11 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: I actually think his dislike of Axl Rose means he can't judge the lyrics objectively. It's the Diesel syndrome! So saying its brilliant isn't enough, saying I love it isn't enough, saying I think it has one of the greatest solos of all time isn't enough I have to say its poetically complex as well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackstar Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 6 minutes ago, EvanG said: You agree that SCOM is at least more complex and less sappy than Izzy's lyrics, right? A writer has suggested that because some lines in Pretty Tied Up are about the band, the whole song might be a metaphor about the band as well, so "she ain't satisfied without some pain" is not actually about a woman, but about Axl. If there's truth to that, then it's a really complex song 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 1 minute ago, Len Cnut said: But you speculating that Axls seeking shelter is perhaps a reference to some sort of abuse or something is substantial? C'mon. Shit, if you wanna extemporise about this shit all it requires is a little imagination, you could argue that Baby Love is bordering on sadomasochistic and bang, we're into a whole new territory. "When I think about my childhood I cry". "When I was a child I had a hiding place where I would hide and pray I wouldn't be found". You find it reaching to assume he is talking about an abusive childhood? I think you should "C'mon." Do you think he was sliterally talking about escaping the rain? Besides, we know he was abused as a child, so we kind of already know the answer. 1 minute ago, Len Cnut said: So saying its brilliant isn't enough, saying I love it isn't enough, saying I think it has one of the greatest solos of all time isn't enough I have to say its poetically complex as well? I haven't been talking about the music at all. Just focused on the lyrics. The music and the solo has zero bearing on anything I say. And my argument isn't that it is "poetically complex" but more complex than baby Love. [That being said, I completely agree with you re: the music :)] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 Quote "When I think about my childhood I cry" He never says that. Quote "When I was a child I had a hiding place where I would hide and pray I wouldn't be found" Or that. Quote Do you think he was sliterally talking about escaping the rain? Why do you assume it was abuse, why can it not be seeking sanctuary as a general theme as children do? From the dark or the sound of thunder? Quote Besides, we know he was abused as a child Oh yeah, from when he was 2 years old that he remembered in his shrinks office, Christ Almighty, I hope I'm never this much of a fan of anyone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvanG Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 Just now, Blackstar said: A writer has suggested that because some lines in Pretty Tied Up are about the band, the whole song might be a metaphor about the band as well, so "she ain't satisfied without some pain" is not actually about a woman, but about Axl. If there's truth to that, then it's a really complex song Haha... it is! And I do like some lines in Pretty Tied Up to be honest, but when I'm talking about "'Izzy's lyrics'' in here I mainly mean his attempts to write love songs. Not that I'm crazy about his lyrics in non love songs, but at least they're not sappy. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 11 minutes ago, EvanG said: Haha... it is! And I do like some lines in Pretty Tied Up to be honest, but when I'm talking about "'Izzy's lyrics'' in here I mainly mean his attempts to write love songs. Not that I'm crazy about his lyrics in non love songs, but at least they're not sappy. Pretty Tied Up, see that has potential for readings of a certain degree of complexity, at least according to rock lyric standards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombux Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 I like DJ Ashba's version of Better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 ''Pretty Tied Up'' has the utterly prophetic lyric, Quote Once there was this rock n' roll band Rollin' on the streets Time went by and it became a joke We just needed more and more fulfilling... uh-huh Time went by and it all went up in smoke Basically the History of Guns N' Roses from then to the present day, written down for you in 1991. Brilliant. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 17 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said: ''Pretty Tied Up'' has the utterly prophetic lyric, Basically the History of Guns N' Roses from then to the present day, written down for you in 1991. Brilliant. I imagine there's a sort of fatalistic comfort in knowing you're a bunch of wankers that are gonna fuck everything up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 2 minutes ago, Len Cnut said: He never says that. Or that. Why do you assume it was abuse, why can it not be seeking sanctuary as a general theme as children do? From the dark or the sound of thunder? Oh yeah, from when he was 2 years old that he remembered in his shrinks office, Christ Almighty, I hope I'm never this much of a fan of anyone No, I paraphrased to make it simpler. Why I think it was abuse? Because when the memories make a grown man cry it is likely that something serious happened. Not just losing a toy. Or being surprised by rain. Or hurting one's knee. And when he then tells about having a sanctuary to escape something, it is a reasonable assumption he was a victim of some kind of abuse. What else could it have been? And that he was abused as a child is not something that was revealed in therapy. You are confusing it with the rape accusation. The general abuse from his stepfather is something Axl would mentioned and allude to from his very first interviews. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 2 minutes ago, Len Cnut said: I imagine there's a sort of fatalistic comfort in knowing you're a bunch of wankers that are gonna fuck everything up. Well Izzy left soon after that. Impeccable timing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackstar Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 Right Next Door to Hell has some interesting lyrics. The chorus is about Axl's neighbour, but the verses are about the Axl/the band dealing with success and Axl's childhood. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 Quote No, I paraphrased to make it simpler. When you put things in quote marks Soulie the general idea is you are quoting, when you alter things like that you change the complexion of the matter. Quote Why I think it was abuse? Because when the memories make a grown man cry it is likely that something serious happened. You're mixing your verses up, the 'special' place where 'if i stayed too long I'd probably break down and cry' is from the first verse, its the second one when he starts talking about 'her hair reminds me of a warm safe place where as a child I'd hide and pray for the thunder and the rain to quietly pass me by'. And how do you know its tears of pain? He's talking about looking at a bird he loves and the way looking at her makes him feel, it could be tears of joy or tears simply by being over-awed by the emotion he feels for her, which is a bit more likely than when i look at her i think of when my Dad used to kick the shit out of me and it makes me want to cry Quote And that he was abused as a child is not something that was revealed in therapy. You are confusing it with the rape accusation. The general abuse from his stepfather is something Axl would mentioned and allude to from his very first interviews. I wouldn't say anything that someone says in an interview is something i 'know' just cuz he said it but thats besides the point I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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