Terminator - Dark Fate

[downzy]

17 hours ago, action said:

it's not an argument, it's a preference.

It's an argument that the latest Terminator is SJW trash.  It's a preference not to like SJW.  

17 hours ago, action said:

One of the most important movies I ever watched.

I guess fair enough, but I really don't see how.  It's a silly premised movie and with sillier premised sequels.  I don't mean any disrespect, but not sure how a movie franchise like the Terminator should be so impactful that subsequent and disappointing sequels become so devastating in your own personal life.  They're movies.  They're intended to be fun distractions to one's life.  To each their own, but I find it odd that any film, let alone these films, become signifiers in ones life.  

17 hours ago, action said:

But not everyone likes the movie

But have you personally seen the movie?  None of your posts have indicated you've actually seen it.  If I had to wager a guess you were put off by a poster that included three women on it and decided this was another attempt by Hollywood to inject progressive attitudes in an established and largely male dominated franchise.  

So again, have you actually seen the film?

17 hours ago, action said:

Where did you get the idea that I'm triggered each time a female takes the lead? 

Because nearly every film from an established previously male-driven franchise that releases a subsequent female-protoganist sequel of late results in you decrying SJW propaganda.

17 hours ago, action said:

terminator 1 is one of my favorite movies ever, and that featured a female lead. I thought I made that  clear?

It has a female lead, but Sarah Connor isn't the only lead.  It's still male driven and dominated film from the moment the action starts.  

17 hours ago, action said:

It's the forced nature that I find issue with, which makes me dislike DF so much.

But every time an established franchise reframes the lead role with female character you claim its SJWism.  

16 hours ago, action said:

You can't "review" something properly if you haven't seen it.

Again, have you seen it?  

[downzy]

10 hours ago, action said:

when a video game lets you create your character I always go for the badass pamela anderson lookalike

I find this a strange claim or comment.  You seem to be saying that because you select an overly embellished and highly sexualized female cartoon as your protagonist in a video game, this somehow absolves you from criticisms regarding your issues with female characters in traditionally male dominated franchises.  

Sorry, I don't mean to go too hard at you here, but this logic kind of reminds me of this line from The Office:

 

[action]

4 hours ago, downzy said:

I find this a strange claim or comment.  You seem to be saying that because you select an overly embellished and highly sexualized female cartoon as your protagonist in a video game, this somehow absolves you from criticisms regarding your issues with female characters in traditionally male dominated franchises.  

Sorry, I don't mean to go too hard at you here, but this logic kind of reminds me of this line from The Office:

 

 

eh.....yeah? 

I countered your argument that I'm triggered by female lead roles, by claiming I make my own female lead roles when allowed to by always creating a pamela anderson lookalike (one of my favorite women).

I also claimed I would not be happy if the next tomb raider game had a man as protagonist.

And now, now that I show I do like female leads, you find issue with a "overly embellished and highly sexualised female cartoon". What is that even supposed to mean? That pamela anderson, by default, is "overly" embellished and highly sexualised? I'm not making her tits bigger than they are in reality if that's what you mean 

I guess I just like women, that's all 

hey downzy, have you ever considered a career at football? With all the goalpost moving you do, you'd be the perfect keeper for real madrid  (please take this comment in the light hearted jokey way it was meant to be)

 

Edited November 7, 2019 by action

[action]

4 hours ago, downzy said:

Again, have you seen it?  

have you read "my struggle" by hitler?

Has anyone, apart from maybe the odd neo-nazi or the specialist historian?

No, but we all know it's utterly racist.

Word-by mouth marketing, fan backlash and countless youtube videos have made me come to this conclusion. If you search for "dark fate SJW", see the avalanche of videos that will pop up. I have a pretty good idea how SJW this movie is.

but like I said: to each their own. If people can convince me the movie isn't SJW at all, then maybe I'll go see the movie (doesn't change the fact that arnie only gets limited screen time, so that probably won't happen)

[downzy]

26 minutes ago, action said:

have you read "my struggle" by hitler?

Has anyone, apart from maybe the odd neo-nazi or the specialist historian?

No, but we all know it's utterly racist.

Word-by mouth marketing, fan backlash and countless youtube videos have made me come to this conclusion. If you search for "dark fate SJW", see the avalanche of videos that will pop up. I have a pretty good idea how SJW this movie is.

but like I said: to each their own. If people can convince me the movie isn't SJW at all, then maybe I'll go see the movie (doesn't change the fact that arnie only gets limited screen time, so that probably won't happen)

So let me get this straight....  You've spent hundreds, if not a thousand words, deriding a movie you haven't seen? 

All to forward this notion that it's pushing a SJW agenda despite not having seen it.  

Right. 

[downzy]

30 minutes ago, action said:

I countered your argument that I'm triggered by female lead roles, by claiming I make my own female lead roles when allowed to by always creating a pamela anderson lookalike (one of my favorite women).

I also claimed I would not be happy if the next tomb raider game had a man as protagonist.

You're claiming that the only place for a female in an entertainment property is when they're an overly sexualized cartoon of women.  At least that's what I'm hearing.  

31 minutes ago, action said:

I guess I just like women, that's all

I didn't say you disliked women, but your attitude towards their place in entertainment properties seems pretty limited to a particular mould or category.  

 

[action]

3 minutes ago, downzy said:

You're claiming that the only place for a female in an entertainment property is when they're an overly sexualized cartoon of women.  At least that's what I'm hearing.  

I didn't say you disliked women, but your attitude towards their place in entertainment properties seems pretty limited to a particular mould or category.  

 

those are your words, not mine. you're bringing up overly sexualised cartoons, not me.  I'll leave those comments to yourselves.

as for your second accusation, I don't feel bad for having a limited scope of interest but at least you now accept I don't dislike women. I guess that's something. 

11 minutes ago, downzy said:

So let me get this straight....  You've spent hundreds, if not a thousand words, deriding a movie you haven't seen? 

All to forward this notion that it's pushing a SJW agenda despite not having seen it.  

Right. 

I haven't seen the movie, no. Why should I view a movie that people are calling an SJW vehicle, when I'm not interested?

And why can't I criticise the movie then, for doing so?

[downzy]

23 minutes ago, action said:

those are your words, not mine. you're bringing up overly sexualised cartoons, not me.  I'll leave those comments to yourselves.

Your counter argument to taking issue with women in lead roles is to reference Pamela Anderson and Lara Croft.  It doesn't take a genius to understand why you take issue with three strong female roles in a traditionally male-driven franchise that don't look like a cartoon barbie doll.

26 minutes ago, action said:

haven't seen the movie, no. Why should I view a movie that people are calling an SJW vehicle, when I'm not interested?

So you're making your mind up based on what other people have to say?  What about the other people in this thread who didn't pick up any SJW vibes?

27 minutes ago, action said:

And why can't I criticise the movie then, for doing so?

You're free to criticize whatever you want.  But why you would criticize a movie or anything solely on the basis of the opinions of others is beyond me.  

[action]

19 minutes ago, downzy said:

Your counter argument to taking issue with women in lead roles is to reference Pamela Anderson and Lara Croft.  It doesn't take a genius to understand why you take issue with three strong female roles in a traditionally male-driven franchise that don't look like a cartoon barbie doll.

So you're making your mind up based on what other people have to say?  What about the other people in this thread who didn't pick up any SJW vibes?

You're free to criticize whatever you want.  But why you would criticize a movie or anything solely on the basis of the opinions of others is beyond me.  

lara croft has been desexualised over the course of the series, to the point where she looks like a regular woman. Still, I'm not complaining. Lara croft, being a woman, adds something interesting to the world of action games. And it's not only in video games I like women either, I liked sarah in terminator 1 too and she can hardly be considered a barbie doll.

Even in dark fate, I'm not as much taking issue with ALL of the main cast being women, as the forced SJW politics that are apparent. Forced SJW politics is my problem, not the women.

I'm listening to both sides, and then forming an opinion. If I wasn't interested in hearing the other side, I wouldn't be here since most people on here don't think the movie is all that SJW. I'm reading those comments with great interest, hoping to be convinced by their reasoning but that hasn't happened yet. 

You'll understand, with movie tickets being the price they are, multiplied with three family members (of which one isn't allowed to see the movie due to age resitrictions), that before I watch a movie I want to have some idea if the movie is any good. I do the same with video games: first read reviews, look up playthroughs and if it doesn't convince me I'm not buying the game. 

An "informed purchase", they call that. I'm not a millionaire who can afford buying stuff and then regret it

Edited November 7, 2019 by action

[downzy]

28 minutes ago, action said:

as the forced SJW politics that are apparent

Where is it apparent?  

As someone who hasn't seen the movie, where are you seeing this?

Again, as someone who has actually seen the movie, SJW politics isn't present or a factor.  It's a robot chasing killing people.  

28 minutes ago, action said:

I'm listening to both sides, and then forming an opinion

Why not go see the movie?   You've probably invested more time talking about it on this forum than the movie's run time?

[action]

10 minutes ago, downzy said:

Where is it apparent?  

As someone who hasn't seen the movie, where are you seeing this?

Again, as someone who has actually seen the movie, SJW politics isn't present or a factor.  It's a robot chasing killing people.  

Why not go see the movie?   You've probably invested more time talking about it on this forum than the movie's run time?

guess I'm just that guy. I'm weird, but aren't we all?

[action]

it went from this:

a schwarzenegger action movie featuring terminators from the future (schwarzenegger being the main attraction)

to this:

a movie about terminators from the future, featuring three female lead characters, schwarzenegger nowhere to be seen.

I appreciate women in movies, but terminator is about schwarzenegger, that's what interested me in the movies in the first damn place. they replaced it with something I didn't ask for, have no place in a goddamn schwarzenegger movie.

if I wanted to view a movie about three women fighting robots from the future, I will. But please do not force them in a schwarzenegger movie where they are categorically out of place.

the forced nature of these SJW politics in THIS movie, is that they could have just easily created a new franchise, using the exact same female actors, and start anew. But to "force" them in the plot, that always revolved around schwarzenegger, is out of place and forced.

[soon]

24 minutes ago, action said:

it went from this:

a schwarzenegger action movie featuring terminators from the future (schwarzenegger being the main attraction)

to this:

a movie about terminators from the future, featuring three female lead characters, schwarzenegger nowhere to be seen.

I appreciate women in movies, but terminator is about schwarzenegger, that's what interested me in the movies in the first damn place. they replaced it with something I didn't ask for, have no place in a goddamn schwarzenegger movie.

if I wanted to view a movie about three women fighting robots from the future, I will. But please do not force them in a schwarzenegger movie where they are categorically out of place.

the forced nature of these SJW politics in THIS movie, is that they could have just easily created a new franchise, using the exact same female actors, and start anew. But to "force" them in the plot, that always revolved around schwarzenegger, is out of place and forced.

Well, if this is the case then it would sound like ultimately your issue is with the nature of capitalism. Newer, younger, actors who can make Terminator 23 long after Arnies dead. Profits for ever. More characters to make action figures out of. A wider audience, given a broader cast. Never ending expansion.

You know what else has an anti capitalist position? The plot of Terminator. Its an anti-capitlasit dystopian franchise.

You know what is woke? Anti-capitalism.

You know who likes woke films, then? You do.

[action]

53 minutes ago, soon said:

Well, if this is the case then it would sound like ultimately your issue is with the nature of capitalism. Newer, younger, actors who can make Terminator 23 long after Arnies dead. Profits for ever. More characters to make action figures out of. A wider audience, given a broader cast. Never ending expansion.

You know what else has an anti capitalist position? The plot of Terminator. Its an anti-capitlasit dystopian franchise.

You know what is woke? Anti-capitalism.

You know who likes woke films, then? You do.

other actors can make a new schwarzenegger movie (in this case: the terminator), like justin bieber can make a new GNR album

you know what else I find funny? they probably thought "well, gotta produce our newest woke movie under the terminator brand, so it won't flop because litterally nobody is anticipating the next big woke hollywood blockbuster"... well fuck me sideways, the movie flopped anyway. I find that pretty fucking hilarious. So it's not all bad I guess. 

Edited November 7, 2019 by action

[downzy]

6 hours ago, action said:

it went from this:

a schwarzenegger action movie featuring terminators from the future (schwarzenegger being the main attraction)

to this:

a movie about terminators from the future, featuring three female lead characters, schwarzenegger nowhere to be seen.

I appreciate women in movies, but terminator is about schwarzenegger, that's what interested me in the movies in the first damn place. they replaced it with something I didn't ask for, have no place in a goddamn schwarzenegger movie.

if I wanted to view a movie about three women fighting robots from the future, I will. But please do not force them in a schwarzenegger movie where they are categorically out of place.

the forced nature of these SJW politics in THIS movie, is that they could have just easily created a new franchise, using the exact same female actors, and start anew. But to "force" them in the plot, that always revolved around schwarzenegger, is out of place and forced.

So you're writing off this movie because of internet chatter (likely amongst angry white males who break out into hives if the lead role isn't played by a white male) and one promotional picture?

By the way, that's not the film's official poster.  It's one promotional picture.  If you wanted to be fair in your comparison, you would have posted this:

So again, i'll ask, other than one marketing picture, how is this film pushing SJW propaganda?  

[action]

1 hour ago, downzy said:

So you're writing off this movie because of internet chatter (likely amongst angry white males who break out into hives if the lead role isn't played by a white male) and one promotional picture?

By the way, that's not the film's official poster.  It's one promotional picture.  If you wanted to be fair in your comparison, you would have posted this:

So again, i'll ask, other than one marketing picture, how is this film pushing SJW propaganda?  

I see terminator as a schwarzenegger movie, so in my opinion this negates the option to have the lead role be played by anyone else.

having someone else take the lead role is the same as having a new GNR album without Axl or Slash. maybe still worthwile on its own, but not GNR. Same with the terminator, which arguably has become synonymous with arnie over the years.

the movie pushes SJW politics, precisely because they replaced the lead role with three females, with arnie having a side-role. it would be forced if it was another male, but it's even more forced when the three replacement characters seemingly don't have any other purpose than to say "see, women can play in action movies too". 

[downzy]

2 hours ago, action said:

I see terminator as a schwarzenegger movie, so in my opinion this negates the option to have the lead role be played by anyone else.

having someone else take the lead role is the same as having a new GNR album without Axl or Slash. maybe still worthwile on its own, but not GNR. Same with the terminator, which arguably has become synonymous with arnie over the years.

the movie pushes SJW politics, precisely because they replaced the lead role with three females, with arnie having a side-role. it would be forced if it was another male, but it's even more forced when the three replacement characters seemingly don't have any other purpose than to say "see, women can play in action movies too". 

Man your logic makes zero sense. 
So any attempt to replace Arnold is an attempt to inject a SJW agenda, made worse if the lead protagonist is played by a woman?  That makes zero fucking sense. 

Essentially you have spent hours in this thread pissing on a movie you haven’t seen because women took roles that should have gone to a male senior citizen. 

And i assume that since you’re so principled about your allegiance to non-SJWism in movies and to Arnold that you have never seen Terminator Salvation since Arnold isn’t even in it?  Otherwise you’re being hypocritical by not seeing this film. 

[Chewbacca]

15 hours ago, action said:

have you read "my struggle" by hitler?

Has anyone, apart from maybe the odd neo-nazi or the specialist historian?

No, but we all know it's utterly racist.

Word-by mouth marketing, fan backlash and countless youtube videos have made me come to this conclusion. If you search for "dark fate SJW", see the avalanche of videos that will pop up. I have a pretty good idea how SJW this movie is.

but like I said: to each their own. If people can convince me the movie isn't SJW at all, then maybe I'll go see the movie (doesn't change the fact that arnie only gets limited screen time, so that probably won't happen)

Get a torrent, so you don't pay for it. It's that simple. If you somehow end up liking it, then go see it and pay the ticket to support the movie. I did not like it so so I'm not paying.

[action]

9 hours ago, downzy said:

Man your logic makes zero sense. 
So any attempt to replace Arnold is an attempt to inject a SJW agenda, made worse if the lead protagonist is played by a woman?  That makes zero fucking sense. 

Essentially you have spent hours in this thread pissing on a movie you haven’t seen because women took roles that should have gone to a male senior citizen. 

And i assume that since you’re so principled about your allegiance to non-SJWism in movies and to Arnold that you have never seen Terminator Salvation since Arnold isn’t even in it?  Otherwise you’re being hypocritical by not seeing this film. 

any attempt to replace arnold in an arnold movie is always bad, made worse when it's done for SJW reasons.

I don't understand this notion that if I go see the movie, this somehow grants me more rights to piss on this movie.

I can perfectly criticise movies I didn't see, books I didn't read, and bands I didn't listen to. there are litterally hundreds of ways in which you can be informed about the quality of stuff, actually watching the movie being one of them.

In your logic, you must see every movie in cinema yourself, because otherwise you can never know if it's any good. 

Don't you ever inform yourself before buying / hiring stuff? I do. It's running a household 101.

No, I did not see salvation because arnold has even less screen time in it. I would be a hypocrite if I did, that's true.

[downzy]

1 hour ago, action said:

I can perfectly criticise movies I didn't see, books I didn't read, and bands I didn't listen to. there are litterally hundreds of ways in which you can be informed about the quality of stuff, actually watching the movie being one of them.

Sure, you can do that, but your opinion is pretty worthless.  Why would anyone take you seriously if you're wasting their time with your opinion that's not based on anything.  If you're not willing to see the film, then your opinion is baseless and not really worth considering.  

1 hour ago, action said:

In your logic, you must see every movie in cinema yourself, because otherwise you can never know if it's any good. 

That's not what I said.  If you're going to claim that a movie is pushing an agenda, then you need to see the movie.  Otherwise your opinion is pointless and not deserving anyone's attention or consideration.  It's really that simple.  You don't need to see every movie to know if you enjoy a movie you've seen, but it's asinine to accept or indulge anyone who holds strong views on something who can't be bothered to actually see the damn film.

1 hour ago, action said:

Don't you ever inform yourself before buying / hiring stuff? I do. It's running a household 101

Absolutely.  But I also understand that my opinion isn't as informed as someone who actually owns the product or viewed the movie.  But you're not even doing that.  You're not even renting in this case.  Throughout this entire thread and this discussion you keep reiterating that the movie is pushing agenda and your only proof isn't even the poster, it's a picture distributed for promotional purposes.  Everyone else who has seen the movie doesn't agree.  Wonder who's opinion holds more weight?

Would you go on Amazon and review products you don't own or have never used?

1 hour ago, action said:

I don't understand this notion that if I go see the movie, this somehow grants me more rights to piss on this movie.

Are you listening to yourself?  This is ridiculous.  Of course it gives you more license to shit on something if you've actually seen it, especially since no one in this thread who has seen it agrees with your opinion.  

------------------------------------------------

Anyways, enough with this nonsense.  This insanely stupid conversation (which I'm partly responsible for) has gone on long enough.  Let's open it up to people who have seen the film and actually want to discuss it rather than wasting everyone time discussing utter nonsense.  

[action]

16 minutes ago, downzy said:

Sure, you can do that, but your opinion is pretty worthless.  Why would anyone take you seriously if you're wasting their time with your opinion that's not based on anything.  If you're not willing to see the film, then your opinion is baseless and not really worth considering.  

That's not what I said.  If you're going to claim that a movie is pushing an agenda, then you need to see the movie.  Otherwise your opinion is pointless and not deserving anyone's attention or consideration.  It's really that simple.  You don't need to see every movie to know if you enjoy a movie you've seen, but it's asinine to accept or indulge anyone who holds strong views on something who can't be bothered to actually see the damn film.

Absolutely.  But I also understand that my opinion isn't as informed as someone who actually owns the product or viewed the movie.  But you're not even doing that.  You're not even renting in this case.  Throughout this entire thread and this discussion you keep reiterating that the movie is pushing agenda and your only proof isn't even the poster, it's a picture distributed for promotional purposes.  Everyone else who has seen the movie doesn't agree.  Wonder who's opinion holds more weight?

Would you go on Amazon and review products you don't own or have never used?

Are you listening to yourself?  This is ridiculous.  Of course it gives you more license to shit on something if you've actually seen it, especially since no one in this thread who has seen it agrees with your opinion.  

------------------------------------------------

Anyways, enough with this nonsense.  This insanely stupid conversation (which I'm partly responsible for) has gone on long enough.  Let's open it up to people who have seen the film and actually want to discuss it rather than wasting everyone time discussing utter nonsense.  

by now, people on here know I didn't see the movie. I think, they can judge for themselves how much value they give to my opinion from here on out.

What are you saying, Downzy? I'm formally disallowed to further engage in the discussion?

[Dazey]

13 hours ago, action said:

the movie pushes SJW politics, precisely because they replaced the lead role with three females

But it really doesn't! Sarah Connor is a pretty big part of the Terminator mythology so it's not really a stretch to include her in this. Another of the women is the target of the Terminator kinda like in, errrrrrrr The Terminator. Basically the only real male to female change of role is in the protector role but her gender isn't referred to even once throughout the whole movie.  

As for the hero part of it it's *spoiler alert* actually Arnie that kills the bad terminator and saves the girl in the end so again no SJW propaganda there.

[action]

5 minutes ago, Dazey said:

But it really doesn't! Sarah Connor is a pretty big part of the Terminator mythology so it's not really a stretch to include her in this. Another of the women is the target of the Terminator kinda like in, errrrrrrr The Terminator. Basically the only real male to female change of role is in the protector role but her gender isn't referred to even once throughout the whole movie.  

As for the hero part of it it's *spoiler alert* actually Arnie that kills the bad terminator and saves the girl in the end so again no SJW propaganda there.

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to further engage in the discussion considering downzy's half-warning, but I feel confident to reply anyway.

I appreciate what you say, and I can totally see where you're coming from.

But to me, arnie is the terminator, and the terminator is arnold. It's like stallone's rambo character.

If you're going to call your movie "the terminator" in the title, then by nature, arnie should have the absolute lead role. In terminis, it doesn't even make sense to have arnold sidetracked, when you're calling your movie "the terminator".

Bare in mind though, I can totally understand the people who do NOT see this series centered around arnold, and that's fine. But from where I'm coming from, it is a big part of the series. The only part, if I'm honest.

[ZoSoRose]

Movie sucks because its another boring chase movie not because it has a few more female leads

[downzy]

10 hours ago, action said:

What are you saying, Downzy? I'm formally disallowed to further engage in the discussion?

No, you're allowed, but I think it's time both you and I set aside the argument of whether the film pushes a SJW agenda since you haven't seen it and have no context to comment on that fact.

For comparisons sake, if someone came into a discussion saying that Chinese Democracy sucked but also admitted they hadn't heard it, the mod team would likely shut down that poster since it doesn't serve the discussion and the poster's intention violated the rules of openly trolling.  Not saying that's exactly what you're doing here, but it's not far off.