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Terminator - Dark Fate

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2 hours ago, Chewbacca said:

From what I get it was skynet that sent those 6 terminators to the past, to an age where John and Sarah would be, in principle, vulnerable. This happened because Skynet didn't have exact data about them, since most was lost during the bombing. It was never stated that legion sent them, but Carl, a Skynet T800 sent Sarah messages with the coordinates for the other terminators, which, I suppose means they were all part of a cadre sent to kill JC for Skynet. Which makes no sense since:

A) Skynet is no more how the hell are its creations still roaming?

B) Why would Skynet send terminators to a period where the bombing already ocurred? He wouldn't be able to do this correction because he was already wiped out by T2's events.

C) If it was legion, why would he build T800's? Why target John? He's not even the messiah anymore. Should've sent them after Dani instead.

Sorry, I'm not seeing the plot hole.

Skynet sent multiple Terminators to kill John to various points in time before its erasure.  

Perhaps they sent Terminators post 1997 with the consideration that the Terminator sent back in 1991 failed (which makes sense since the first Terminator failed in T1).  Perhaps others were sent around the planet earlier and it took them awhile to track John down.  And also, perhaps Terminators sent back after John's death (the ones destroyed by Sarah) were sent by Legion and not Skynet.  

Any of these scenarios would explain why Terminators continue to arrive post 1997.  

"Carl" also seems to be able to detect when and where Terminators sent from Legion.  Sarah was notified of the arrival of the Rev-9 Terminator's, which is from Legion's time, by Carl.  The Rev-9 is known to Grace, who is only familiar with Legion and not Skynet.  Hence it's probable Legion became the entity that was sending Terminators back at some point instead of Skynet.  

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1 hour ago, downzy said:

Sorry, I'm not seeing the plot hole.

Skynet sent multiple Terminators to kill John to various points in time before its erasure.  

Perhaps they sent Terminators post 1997 with the consideration that the Terminator sent back in 1991 failed (which makes sense since the first Terminator failed in T1).  Perhaps others were sent around the planet earlier and it took them awhile to track John down.  And also, perhaps Terminators sent back after John's death (the ones destroyed by Sarah) were sent by Legion and not Skynet.  

Any of these scenarios would explain why Terminators continue to arrive post 1997.  

"Carl" also seems to be able to detect when and where Terminators sent from Legion.  Sarah was notified of the arrival of the Rev-9 Terminator's, which is from Legion's time, by Carl.  The Rev-9 is known to Grace, who is only familiar with Legion and not Skynet.  Hence it's probable Legion became the entity that was sending Terminators back at some point instead of Skynet.  

How is it not a plot hole?  How come robots can go back to the past thx to a future computer that doesn't exist anymore? How would Skynet send anything after "aknowledging" his failure in T2 if he would be erased by the? Why would legion send a T800 after JC if he's not its nemesis?

The movie implies that Carl, the original T800, T1000 and the other terminator Sarah hunted were sent by Skynet, hence Carl had their deployment dates stored in his data, which also doesn't make sense since the future that created him is no more. Even if we ignore it and say he can exist because he was sent with the other T800's "before" T2 happened, why would skynet send him and the others to a date PAST judgement day? It wouldn't change anything at this point. Jc wouldn't be vulnerable anymore and he would be already erased.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Chewbacca said:

How is it not a plot hole?  How come robots can go back to the past thx to a future computer that doesn't exist anymore? How would Skynet send anything after "aknowledging" his failure in T2 if he would be erased by the? Why would legion send a T800 after JC if he's not its nemesis?

Because the Terminators were sent out prior to Skynet being erased.  Otherwise the Terminators in T2 wouldn't have arrived either.  

Let's go over this again. 

Skynet existed in the future and sent back the T-1000 and the good T-800 for Terminator 2.  Sarah Conor in the new film says that before they changed the future, Skynet sent more Terminators.  Who knows exactly when this took place, but it was either at the same time it sent the T-1000 back or even before.  They show up later because that's when they're sent.  It doesn't matter that Skynet no longer exists since they depart at a time when Skynet does exist and arrive in a year where the future is changed as a result of T2.  Assume Carl does show up in 1998 in Guatemala some how (though he might have shown up earlier and needed time to track John down).  He's still from a future that existed before the events of T2 changed things.  

1 hour ago, Chewbacca said:

The movie implies that Carl, the original T800, T1000 and the other terminator Sarah hunted were sent by Skynet, hence Carl had their deployment dates stored in his data, which also doesn't make sense since the future that created him is no more

Carl, the good T800 that was in T2, and the T1000 were all sent from a future when Skynet existed before the events of T2 occurred. This is why Carl had their deploy dates in his data; they were either sent before he was sent or at the same time.  It's just they were sent to different years.  One area I'm a little confused about whether he actually had their deploy dates and locations or whether he can detect the arrival of Terminators from the future.  I'm guessing the latter since he was able to detect the Rev-9, a Terminator that isn't from Carl's future.  

1 hour ago, Chewbacca said:

why would skynet send him and the others to a date PAST judgement day?

Why not?  Wouldn't Skynet have learned as a result of the failure from the first Terminator film that Terminators may not succeed and as a result things might change?  Even if it assumes that Judgement Day does actually happen, wouldn't John still be Skynet's most wanted and might be vulnerable soon after judgement day?  Obviously John survives judgement day since he leads the resistance.  What difference does it make if they send Terminators back before or after the judgement day known to Skynet at the time they sent the Terminators back?

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6 hours ago, Chewbacca said:

From what I get it was skynet that sent those 6 terminators to the past, to an age where John and Sarah would be, in principle, vulnerable. This happened because Skynet didn't have exact data about them, since most was lost during the bombing. It was never stated that legion sent them, but Carl, a Skynet T800 sent Sarah messages with the coordinates for the other terminators, which, I suppose means they were all part of a cadre sent to kill JC for Skynet. Which makes no sense since:

A) Skynet is no more how the hell are its creations still roaming?

B) Why would Skynet send terminators to a period where the bombing already ocurred? He wouldn't be able to do this correction because he was already wiped out by T2's events.

C) If it was legion, why would he build T800's? Why target John? He's not even the messiah anymore. Should've sent them after Dani instead.

 

They were blue but their facial features were mostly intact and they were all attractive people Zoe and Sam are very good looking. Even the evil sarge guy was good looking.

Harry Potter was a kid's movie, they had to get child actors for the kids to indentify themselves with. As the series went on and their public grew older, they also introduced manu attractive actors such as Gary Oldman, Robert Patinson, the girl who played Cho, The girl who played Fleur, the guy who played Krum, the guy who played the elder weasley that married Krum and they could not just ditch the trio that played the leading characters. Same goes for the fantastic animals trilogy, all good looking people, even if the movies were mostly crap.

 

1 hour ago, Chewbacca said:

How is it not a plot hole?  How come robots can go back to the past thx to a future computer that doesn't exist anymore? How would Skynet send anything after "aknowledging" his failure in T2 if he would be erased by the? Why would legion send a T800 after JC if he's not its nemesis?

The movie implies that Carl, the original T800, T1000 and the other terminator Sarah hunted were sent by Skynet, hence Carl had their deployment dates stored in his data, which also doesn't make sense since the future that created him is no more. Even if we ignore it and say he can exist because he was sent with the other T800's "before" T2 happened, why would skynet send him and the others to a date PAST judgement day? It wouldn't change anything at this point. Jc wouldn't be vulnerable anymore and he would be already erased.

 

 

There really isn't a scenario in the Terminator franchise, really even just counting T1 and T2, where there aren't plot holes. The framework of the films is time travel - no matter the outcome, the result is a time travel paradox. Before considering any sequels, let's look at T1 and pretend there are no sequels to factor in. Skynet sends a single T-800 back to 1984, and the resistance sends back Kyle Reese. Suppose Skynet succeeded - Sarah is dead, which means John is never born, which means the human resistance was crushed and Kyle never could've been sent back in the first place. In the film as it is, Skynet fails. This causes a paradox in the future - Kyle tells Sarah that Skynet is crippled and the humans have nearly won the war, sending the T-800 back to kill her was an act of desperation. How does Skynet know the T-800 failed, and how do they buy the time to keep sending back Terminator after Terminator?

When we move onto the sequels, things get more interesting in the paradox department. The fact that a T-1000 is sent back to kill John probably means some time has passed since Skynet sent back the T-800 to 1984 - why would they not be sending back their most efficient model to carry out a mission? This trend continues through the rest of the sequels. The question is, if Skynet was crippled in 2029 as of when Kyle was sent back to 1984, what changed? Additionally, there is no event in T2 that really, truly is of any consequence in the bigger picture. So the Cyberdine headquarters were destroyed along with the original T-800 arm and chip. But we saw Miles Dyson working tirelessly on the project at home - are we really to believe he's the only Cyberdine employee who has backup files and project info for any of this at home? All of this can be explained away by time travel paradoxes. But no one was upset about how T2 changed the meaning or nature of T1. The only real point worth mentioning from T3, Salvation, or Genisys is that T3 shows us Judgement Day wasn't stopped, only delayed. This is the major point of the whole franchise, and the fact that T2 even exists proves it - there is no stopping Judgement Day, humans will eventually cause their own demise one way or another

Skipping ahead to Dark Fate, lots of time travel paradoxes - this is where the timeline starts to get confusing. Skynet sent back the T-800's. While T3 and DF don't co-exist in the same timeline (More on that later), we know from T3 that Judgement Day can only be delayed. Sarah and John ran out the clock after T2 and survived to see the supposed Judgement Day in 1997 come and go with nothing happening. A year later, they've let down their guard - they think they won the war by destroying Skynet, but they have - they only delayed Judgement Day. Skynet is still functioning in the future, and are now sending Terminators back to various points in time to try and win the war. One eventually succeeds by killing John in 1998. At this point Skynet has won the war, but none of that really matters anymore because we then branch off to a different timeline. The Terminators that Sarah is hunting down over the next 20 years are sometimes Skynet Terminators, some Legion. Skynet was likely still sending Terminators back to all different points in time concurrently, an act of desperation. I may be imagining this, but I think in the film Carl explains how he knows where they're popping up but way of a sensitivity to electromagnetism when the time portal opens up, it's not that he intuitively knows that Skynet is sending Terminators back to this day and time. 

Now, this is really the key to tying all of the events of all six films together; the six films do not all exist in the same timeline. The franchise branches off into alternate timelines, which again can be explained away because "time travel paradox". There are three distinct timelines that I can think of are:

1. The Terminator  >>>  Terminator 2  >>>  Terminator 3
2. The Terminator  >>>  Terminator Genisys
3. The Terminator  >>>  Terminator 2  >>>  Terminator Dark Fate

What this means is, T3, Genisys, and Dark Fate do not all happen in relation to one another. When you consider the timeline, if one of those happened, the other two didn't. The most obvious proof of this in-universe is Sarah is revealed to have died in 1997 in T3, but Sarah is alive in both Genisys and Dark Fate. Genisys is an interesting one because in it we see an altered timeline for T1. I'm a little rusty on that one so I can't remember how the events of T2 correlate with Genisys. Salvation is also an interesting one because it solely takes place in the future - I think it could be argued that it both does, and does not explicitly fit into any of the timelines. The very nature of these films is that sequels will contradict one another - the more time travel happens in the universe, the more convoluted the timeline gets because from the point of time travel, there's essentially 2 possible outcomes that both could or could not happen - it's a basic Schrodinger's Cat situation. So yes, I suppose you could say that Dark Fate is a retcon, but it's somewhat that's really built into the nature of the story at it's core, and they don't really try to pretend it isn't.

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1 hour ago, downzy said:

Because the Terminators were sent out prior to Skynet being erased.  Otherwise the Terminators in T2 wouldn't have arrived either.  

Let's go over this again. 

Skynet existed in the future and sent back the T-1000 and the good T-800 for Terminator 2.  Sarah Conor in the new film says that before they changed the future, Skynet sent more Terminators.  Who knows exactly when this took place, but it was either at the same time it sent the T-1000 back or even before.  They show up later because that's when they're sent.  It doesn't matter that Skynet no longer exists since they depart at a time when Skynet does exist and arrive in a year where the future is changed as a result of T2.  Assume Carl does show up in 1998 in Guatemala some how (though he might have shown up earlier and needed time to track John down).  He's still from a future that existed before the events of T2 changed things.  

Carl, the good T800 that was in T2, and the T1000 were all sent from a future when Skynet existed before the events of T2 occurred. This is why Carl had their deploy dates in his data; they were either sent before he was sent or at the same time.  It's just they were sent to different years.  One area I'm a little confused about whether he actually had their deploy dates and locations or whether he can detect the arrival of Terminators from the future.  I'm guessing the latter since he was able to detect the Rev-9, a Terminator that isn't from Carl's future.  

Why not?  Wouldn't Skynet have learned as a result of the failure from the first Terminator film that Terminators may not succeed and as a result things might change?  Even if it assumes that Judgement Day does actually happen, wouldn't John still be Skynet's most wanted and might be vulnerable soon after judgement day?  Obviously John survives judgement day since he leads the resistance.  What difference does it make if they send Terminators back before or after the judgement day known to Skynet at the time they sent the Terminators back?

How Skynet would learn anything if it was erased?

Skynet knew Judgement day was in 1997. Why would he send a terminator after that if he was already on top? Also 1997 is a key date for it. He needs to ensure it happens. Sending a terminator after that makes no sense. What did Skynet accomplish by killing john on the beach? Nothing, he's still erased.

How were the terminators sent before he was erased if he sent those terminator past 1997 and he was erased in 1991?

Edited by Chewbacca

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32 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

How Skynet would learn anything if it was erased?

It sent Terminators back before it was erased.  That's the point.  Again, think of it as a time loop.  Prior to Terminator 2, the events haven't changed that much and judgement day still happens in the late 90s and Skynet is still battling forces led by John Connor.  At some point it must have realized that the T-800 it sent back in Terminator 1 failed since John Connor still exists.  Or conversely, John Connor's continued existence rejigged things for T2, which could have led to Skynet sending Terminator back later, or further into the future (the T-1000).  Skynet still exists in that future to send multiple Terminators back.  It no longer exists once the events of T2 happen, but according to the timeline prior to the events of T2, it was still sending other Terminators back.  

32 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

Skynet knew Judgement day was in 1997. Why would he send a terminator after that if he was already on top?

It wasn't on top though.  Judgement Day was the day Skynet became self-aware and launched nuclear weapons to incite a counter-attack by the Russians.  It wasn't the day humanity was wiped out, but the day Skynet started its assault on humanity.  John Connor still survives since he's the leader of the resistance.  The timeline that existed prior to T2 includes Skynet sending the T-1000 back along with, I suppose, other T-800s to other years (say, 1998).  As @Powerage5 mentions, the Terminators from the Skynet timeline stop arriving since back in that timeline they likely would have only sent Terminators back only so far (maybe another in 2000, another in 2002, etc), and with it the end of Terminators being sent back from Skynet.  The Legion timeline prevails and starts sending Terminators back to kill other future resistance leaders, one of which is Dani (maybe there's more or others, we don't know).  A good question to ask is why they sent only one T-1000 back.  Carl is a T-800 from the T1 days, so perhaps he was from that timeline and sent back before T-1000s were created.

32 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

Also 1997 is a key date for it. He needs to ensure it happens. Sending a terminator after that makes no sense. What did Skynet accomplish by killing john on the beach? Nothing, he's still erased.

Judgement Day is an arbitrary date.  It can be moved forward or back depending on how time travellers affect the past.  The point of T3 and Dark Fate is that it can't be avoided.  In the Terminator universe humanity will always fuck things up and create a self-aware computer system that for whatever reason decides it needs to kill off humanity.  August 29th, 1997 was only relevant to the timeline prior to the events of T2.  Following the events of T2, things changed and the future timeline changed as well.  Judgement Day was moved and initiated by something other than Skynet (in this case, Legion).  But Skynet did exist at one point, but that timeline is really no longer relevant except for the Terminators it was able to send back before the events of T2.

32 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

How were the terminators sent before he was erased if he sent those terminator past 1997 and he was erased in 1991?

Again, it's a time loop that feeds another time loop.  The figure from the future is sent back to the past that causes the future to change.  That figure still exists, but the future in which he's from no longer exists.  So in this case the Terminators sent back are from a future that no longer happened, but they still exist.  They just changed the course of events to ensure that it didn't happen.  

 

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15 minutes ago, lame ass security said:

I'm not really a Terminator fan but I've read these last few posts and I'm pretty sure I'm having a brain aneurysm. 😄

It’s funny because most people see the Terminator franchise as nothing more than some big budget action flicks. But the nature of the larger story makes in incredibly complex and puts forward some pretty bizarre metaphysical situations. 

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58 minutes ago, Powerage5 said:

It’s funny because most people see the Terminator franchise as nothing more than some big budget action flicks. But the nature of the larger story makes in incredibly complex and puts forward some pretty bizarre metaphysical situations. 

Yeah, it can be a bit of mind trip if you think about it for too long.  The movie Looper does a good job of contextualizing some of the concepts around time travel.  

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9 hours ago, soon said:

I cannot account for your tastes. But if you mean 'why do the characters they portray in the movie look different then these photos of the real life actresses?' then its because thats what movies are - they are thespians.

But who knows what you might think if you saw the movie? :P

well, you don't know my taste, but I do know yours since you posted those pictures and you commented "sexy af". So I take it you found those pictures sexy.

it can't be denied that they looked very different in the movie.

So in essence you agree with me (you just don't realise yet).  :P

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4 hours ago, action said:

well, you don't know my taste

Yes I do. Pam Anderson in her Bay Watch bathing suit. You've been very clear about that :P

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6 minutes ago, soon said:

Yes I do. Pam Anderson in her Bay Watch bathing suit. You've been very clear about that :P

well that's set then. it's decided who the new terminator should be

"pamela anderson is back! And this time, she's not here to save you"

looking forward to her opening time travel section :drool:

Edited by action

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4 minutes ago, action said:

well that's set then. it's decided who the new terminator should be

"pamela anderson is back! And this time, she's not here to save you"

They already made that movie. And they already have the new terminator. Now go google "Barb Wire" with one hand :lol:

bP10u1E.jpg

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15 minutes ago, soon said:

They already made that movie. And they already have the new terminator. Now go google "Barb Wire" with one hand :lol:

bP10u1E.jpg

now if you'all excuse me. I'll be away for a while :P

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1 hour ago, action said:

well that's set then. it's decided who the new terminator should be

"pamela anderson is back! And this time, she's not here to save you"

Instead of an Uzi she's bringing a dose of hepatitis. :lol: 

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Just now, Powerage5 said:

It’s funny because most people see the Terminator franchise as nothing more than some big budget action flicks. But the nature of the larger story makes in incredibly complex and puts forward some pretty bizarre metaphysical situations. 

I was going to say something similar, time travel and AI and the nature of AI (Blade Runner territory).

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Just watched it. Fairly silly soft-reboot stuff (of T2) with awful CGI and a haggered looking Arnie in Kindergarten Cop mode. I'd say it certainly has aspects of Woke (all that dialogue about her not being just a breeding machine for another heroic male resistance leader) and there is some anti-Thrumpean stuff during the whole border-Mexican stuff. I wouldn't say that is how the film fails though, simply that it goes from one gormless chase scene to another. 

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22 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

all that dialogue about her not being just a breeding machine for another heroic male resistance leader

Yeah, this was a very clumsily handled section of the film.  I realize they wanted some sort of twist, but it was obvious from the get-go.  Sarah's dialogue was so over the top about Dani's son being the next leader that it felt like a bad setup to an obvious reveal.  They should have just revealed Dani was the leader of the resistance from the get-go rather than try to drag it out for effect later on.  

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13 minutes ago, downzy said:

Yeah, this was a very clumsily handled section of the film.  I realize they wanted some sort of twist, but it was obvious from the get-go.  Sarah's dialogue was so over the top about Dani's son being the next leader that it felt like a bad setup to an obvious reveal.  They should have just revealed Dani was the leader of the resistance from the get-go rather than try to drag it out for effect later on.  

oh dear.

I'm feeling the anger boiling up again, but I think I've said enough about that.

barb wire (female lead role!) was so much better than this

 

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23 minutes ago, action said:

oh dear.

I'm feeling the anger boiling up again, but I think I've said enough about that.

barb wire (female lead role!) was so much better than this

 

Calm down.  It's a clumsy plot twist.  It's not some nefarious agenda to make you feel bad about yourself because you're a man.  

Regardless, what I find baffling is how or why you would let this prevent you from enjoying the entire film.  

There are many films that push self-perceived agendas that I don't subscribe to but can still enjoy.  To give you just one example, Ghostbusters's conservative, anti-government ideology is wholly transparent.  Public universities -bad; private enterprise - the solution.  The bad guy is a government employee.  But that still doesn't prevent me from enjoying the film since it's a movie about grown men chasing ghosts.  Just like this is a movie about killer robots from the future.  

I would advise not taking things so seriously.

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6 minutes ago, downzy said:

Calm down.  It's a clumsy plot twist.  It's not some nefarious agenda to make you feel bad about yourself because you're a man.  

Regardless, what I find baffling is how or why you would let this prevent you from enjoying the entire film.  

There are many films that push self-perceived agendas that I don't subscribe to but can still enjoy.  To give you just one example, Ghostbusters's conservative, anti-government ideology is wholly transparent.  Public universities -bad; private enterprise - the solution.  The bad guy is a government employee.  But that still doesn't prevent me from enjoying the film since it's a movie about grown men chasing ghosts.  Just like this is a movie about killer robots from the future.  

I would advise not taking things so seriously.

:shrugs:they didn't give arnold enough screentime.

couldn't care less about the woke stuff really. I may have communicated a distorted message here over the last couple of days. See, I've watched plenty of woke stuff in my time, willingly or by ambush. Never minded very much (though I don't see the value of it either). I suspect it was one of the reasons for giving arnold less screentime in this instance, and THAT's when it hits home. The woke stuff becomes the "reason" arnold doesnt get as much action as yesterday. Had the reason been.... I dunno.... to give homeless people with blue hair the lead role, I would be equally enraged (and I would be mistaken for hating homeless people with blue hair).

I don't expect you to understand anything I said though, just hope at least I'm making a tiny bit of sense. ;)

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11 minutes ago, action said:

The woke stuff becomes the "reason" arnold doesnt get as much action as yesterday.

Or it could be no one wants to watch a 70 year old carry a two hour movie and there's other elements of the franchise worth exploring.  

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1 hour ago, action said:

oh dear.

I'm feeling the anger boiling up again, but I think I've said enough about that.

barb wire (female lead role!) was so much better than this

 

Barb Wire has a scene where she says "Don't call me babe" and then shoots the man who called her "babe" like 8 times. This song from the soundtrack celebrates that theme. The scene in question is included at the end of the music video.                      

#action_so_woke

 :lol:

Edited by soon
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18 minutes ago, soon said:

Barb Wire has a scene where she says "Don't call me babe" and then shoots the man who called her "babe" like 8 times. This song from the soundtrack celebrates that theme. The scene in question is included at the end of the music video.                      

#action_so_woke

 :lol:

I'm such a feminist, haven't you noticed?

this is one of my favorite women's rights movies. I watch this movie solely for that reason, i'm not lying :lol:

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We've had a Termatorix with robotic boobs. We have had Genesis which couldn't even write its own name it is that confusing a film. Now we have had Arniie as a T-800 called ''Carl'' who is into Drapery and has a family! Please let the franchise die. 

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