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3 minutes ago, zigzagbigbag said:

You don’t think the band and/or management has no word regarding the price of their products, eg the boxset?! I won’t comment on that. 

Maybe you just want to check your massive archive with regard to the question why the UYI albums had been split into two separate albums and/or LLAS had been rereleased as part of the Lies EP. 

I think it is wrong to blame the band's management for the pricing strategy of a Universal product, yes. The band has a recording contract with Universal and I am sure there are no provisions in that contract stating that the band decides on the records exit-prices. That is usually the label's decision under the contract. After all, they deal with marketing, production, promotion, etc. There will, on the other hand, be provisions on what royalties the band will receive on the records' sales.

You are right that bands (and by extension their managements) are involved in deciding what should be released (after all, they are the artists), at least to the extent that they present music to the label that could be released as per their recording contract, but generally speaking, as per the above, their influence on prices are much smaller. Which is why Niven and the band had a lot of say in what was to be released and its format (in the years 89-91). And I wouldn't hold it against an empowered and headstrong manager like Niven to also at least try to argue/pressure a label into accommodating the artist in regards to pricing etc, but thinking that Team Brazil is the reason the price of Universal's boxset dropped rapidly, seems to me like wishful thinking from fans who need to pile criticism upon criticism and the only reason for shaking one's head here.

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3 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

No, I am not saying this forum is the problem. Censoring criticism is worse than anything. It is the cumulative aggression from parts of the fanbase (here, there and everywhere), regardless of how justified it is, that continues to create an environment that I fear is not amenable to solving the issue because it just pushes TB away and makes them less likely to listen to reason when it comes from someone they believe talk shit out of one corner of their mouth yet argue solutions out of the other. It doesn't make sense and it is not our fault but we have to deal with the reality of this management, not how we would like them to behave. And of course there is no way we can all suddenly decide to hold our tongues, we are not a cohesive group that acts together. My posts came at the realization that we are just making it worse for ourselves, I really don't know if there is any other way. 

You keep saying that, but where is all this really coming from? Like I’ve said before, no one from "our side" has been particularly exacerbating the situation lately. Have we? We’re not e-mailing this stuff to the management; we’re just talking on a fan forum. Apart from the Beta communication – and in cases like this, people are merely defending themselves in the first place because of the nonsensical steps TB has chosen – the only other recent communication TB has received was a response from people on FB asking them to add Sweet Child O’ Mine to the playlist, not knowing what "SCOM" is. That is the kind of communication the management pays attention to (if at all). Not guys venting frustration on a forum. So where’s this cumulating aggression towards TB you’re mentioning? Perhaps here, but let it cumulate, it’s not harming anyone.

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2 minutes ago, jamillos said:

You keep saying that, but where is all this really coming from? Like I’ve said before, no one from "our side" has been particularly exacerbating the situation lately. Have we? We’re not e-mailing this stuff to the management; we’re just talking on a fan forum. Apart from the Beta communication – and in cases like this, people are merely defending themselves in the first place because of the nonsensical steps TB has chosen – the only other recent communication TB has received was a response from people on FB asking them to add Sweet Child O’ Mine to the playlist, not knowing what "SCOM" is. That is the kind of communication the management pays attention to (if at all). Not guys venting frustration on a forum. So where’s this cumulating aggression towards TB you’re mentioning? Perhaps here, but let it cumulate, it’s not harming anyone.

I am not even talking about an exacerbation of the situation, but more a constant negativity and attacks on TB on various internet forums, Facebook, and other social platform. That being said, I do think it has been increasing on this forum as the result of the takedowns (and probably elsewhere, too). But that is just an impression I have. And I am sure TB is somewhat aware or what happening on the forums and on social media in general. Not in the sense that they read every post, but they pick up the general mood.

And I disagree this hostility is not harming anyone, it is harming our relationship with TB and hence our ability to make them see reason on various topics including the takedowns. 

My suggestion would be two-fold:

1. Those with connections to TB should use them to argue for why the takedowns are hurting the band. Not throw accusations, not act like victims. Focus on the effect it has on business, revenues and reputation. We seem to disagree with them on this, but I am sure we can at least argue our case if we don't enter the discussions perceived as the enemy.

2. The rest of us should think twice of whether unsubstantiated, immature insults really help our cause or whether they are just detrimental to what we hope to achieve and erodes any genuine efforts at sincere dialogue. And I am not talking about valid criticisms here, I am talking about immature lashing out and often misdirected criticism that just paints us as uninformed and vengeful. It is the sheer weight of the latter that pushes them away, not the former. I am ABSOLUTELY not arguing for stricter moderation on the forum or any other, I am appealing directly to individuals to just think twice. If we could just reduce it somewhat then I think it could do us a lot of good.

Because I honestly believe there is a way out of this mess, but it will take time and a lot of effort on our behalf. I just hate seeing us give up now. And it is unfortunate because we really don't deserve to be in this situation in the first place, the majority of the responsibility of the situation must be placed on Team Brazil. But as I have said before, someone's got to break the downward spiral and it looks like it has to be us.

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19 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

I am not even talking about an exacerbation of the situation, but more a constant negativity and attacks on TB on various internet forums, Facebook, and other social platform. That being said, I do think it has been increasing on this forum as the result of the takedowns (and probably elsewhere, too). But that is just an impression I have. And I am sure TB is somewhat aware or what happening on the forums and on social media in general. Not in the sense that they read every post, but they pick up the general mood.

And I disagree this hostility is not harming anyone, it is harming our relationship with TB and hence our ability to make them see reason on various topics including the takedowns. 

My suggestion would be two-fold:

1. Those with connections to TB should use them to argue for why the takedowns are hurting the band. Not throw accusations, not act like victims. Focus on the effect it has on business, revenues and reputation. We seem to disagree with them on this, but I am sure we can at least argue our case if we don't enter the discussions perceived as the enemy.

2. The rest of us should think twice of whether unsubstantiated, immature insults really help our cause or whether they are just detrimental to what we hope to achieve and erodes any genuine efforts at sincere dialogue. And I am not talking about valid criticisms here, I am talking about immature lashing out and often misdirected criticism that just paints us as uninformed and vengeful. It is the sheer weight of the latter that pushes them away, not the former. I am ABSOLUTELY not arguing for stricter moderation on the forum or any other, I am appealing directly to individuals to just think twice. If we could just reduce it somewhat then I think it could do us a lot of good.

Because I honestly believe there is a way out of this mess, but it will take time and a lot of effort on our behalf. I just hate seeing us give up now. And it is unfortunate because we really don't deserve to be in this situation in the first place, the majority of the responsibility of the situation must be placed on Team Brazil. But as I have said before, someone's got to break the downward spiral and it looks like it has to be us.

Ok then. Here's to hoping. 

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1 minute ago, RussTCB said:

I'm not sure what you're not understanding, but I'll say it again: 

All of the above has been tried. It's been explained to TB in private many times takedowns hurt the band.

I have acknowledged it has been tried before. I read @downzy's posts on the topic in the thread with your well-intentioned open letter to everyone, and where he mentioned having reached out to management a few times. I am not sure why you don't understand that what I am saying is not a complaint that no one has tried, but that we shouldn't give up on our efforts. There are other people with access to the management here; I believe the time of civil discourse and careful argumentation isn't over. Maybe we won't be able to stop the takedowns, but we might be able to start the process of re-establishing a working relationship between us and them. Although you seem to have given up entirely. Fine, I never expected everyone to agree anyway.

 

1 minute ago, RussTCB said:

In addition, we've tried to show them the value if the voice of the fans (i.e the forums) and they just don't care. The GN'R organization, whether it's TB, Del or Axl himself, are VERY good at playing the victim. 

The bands fans are not to blame for this current situation. The band, it's management and its associates are. How or why you think that the fans need to keep playing nice with a group of people who have nothing but open contempt for them is beyond me. 

I have also acknowledged that TB is mostly at blame for the conflict between certain fans and them. But as I have said repeatedly, this isn't about who is at blame, this is about getting over it because we realize that the benefits of establishing civil relations is worth more than petty squabbling. 

And I am not advocating "playing nice", unless you think that abstaining from immature personal attacks and blaming TB for everything that is wrong, is "playing nice." What I have argued is that if we think twice about posting that 4th "fuck you TB" "you ruined GN'R!!", because that might actually go a long way in reducing the overall feeling that TB might have that we are a lost cause not worth spending any time on and especially not worth listening to.

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Empirical school of science Souly boy? ''If, having given a dog a bone and been bitten once, twice, law determines you'll probably be bitten a third time'' and other such examples?

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16 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

I have acknowledged it has been tried before. I read @downzy's posts on the topic in the thread with your well-intentioned open letter to everyone, and where he mentioned having reached out to management a few times. I am not sure why you don't understand that what I am saying is not a complaint that no one has tried, but that we shouldn't give up on our efforts. There are other people with access to the management here; I believe the time of civil discourse and careful argumentation isn't over. Maybe we won't be able to stop the takedowns, but we might be able to start the process of re-establishing a working relationship between us and them. Although you seem to have given up entirely. Fine, I never expected everyone to agree anyway.

 

I have also acknowledged that TB is mostly at blame for the conflict between certain fans and them. But as I have said repeatedly, this isn't about who is at blame, this is about getting over it because we realize that the benefits of establishing civil relations is worth more than petty squabbling. 

And I am not advocating "playing nice", unless you think that abstaining from immature personal attacks and blaming TB for everything that is wrong, is "playing nice." What I have argued is that if we think twice about posting that 4th "fuck you TB" "you ruined GN'R!!", because that might actually go a long way in reducing the overall feeling that TB might have that we are a lost cause not worth spending any time on and especially not worth listening to.

First things first; of course "others have access to TB". They're not some secret organization that is hard to get to. Their email addresses have been posted in public many times as well as their phone numbers. So anyone who has direct contact with TB hasn't really pulled off some special feat. Dozens and dozens of people with fb pages & fan sites have easy access to TB if they so chose. Really, anyone who wants to can shoot them anything they want. It's usually something along the lines of "Hey, I've got this great new GNR site and here's how I can help TB!", then they hope for some special connection to GNR somewhere down the line because of it. 

Secondly (and again) it is not on the fans to try to repair anything at this point. TB have created this toxic environment themselves, not the fans. As I said before they, like GNR in general, are very good at playing the victim. They have a proven track record of shitting on the fans, yet somehow we're the ones who need to repair this? That makes absolutely zero sense. 

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18 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Empirical school of science Souly boy? ''If, having given a dog a bone and been bitten once, twice, law determines you'll probably be bitten a third time'' and other such examples?

Even a violent dog can come around it we treat it the right way.

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6 minutes ago, RussTCB said:

First things first; of course "others have access to TB". They're not some secret organization that is hard to get to. Their email addresses have been posted in public many times as well as their phone numbers. So anyone who has direct contact with TB hasn't really pulled off some special feat. Dozens and dozens of people with fb pages & fan sites have easy access to TB if they so chose. Really, anyone who wants to can shoot them anything they want. It's usually something along the lines of "Hey, I've got this great new GNR site and here's how I can help TB!", then they hope for some special connection to GNR somewhere down the line because of it. 

Secondly (and again) it is not on the fans to try to repair anything at this point. TB have created this toxic environment themselves, not the fans. As I said before they, like GNR in general, are very good at playing the victim. They have a proven track record of shitting on the fans, yet somehow we're the ones who need to repair this? That makes absolutely zero sense. 

I was more talking about people who have established a channel of communication with TB, not anyone who can tag them in a post.

So they shit on you? It is ironic you blame TB for acting the victim when that is exactly the same thing you do. Well, TB sees it the same way. Remarkably how similar this whole feud is to children fighting. Each blaming the other part for being the ones who started it and the ones who are unfair to them. Neither accepting their own role in cementing the bad relations (even in the very thread where there has been numerous "fuck you TB" posts :lol:).

What I am saying is that at some point we just have break out of the cycle of insults and being triggered, at least if we actually want a working relationship with GN'R's management. Someone's got to be the adults here.

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I was never really interested in youtube videos to begin with. Not by guns n roses or others of my favorite bands. There are plenty of rare live performances and rare songs available all over youtube, by countless of bands. But somehow, I can't be bothered to watch them let alone download them.

I don't see much appeal in all of it.

I remember when that huge freddie boxset released in the year 2000, containing a gold mine of unheard freddie stuff. I listened to it maybe once or twice, thought it was cool, but then it sat on the shelf.

Same with concert DVD's: cool to view once, twice, but I ask myself: how much value does it "really" have?

If I look at my daily listening behaviour, it's always the same couple of albums I play, that I came to know and love.

There was a time, when I anxiously anticipated something like the newest GNR album. Then came out CD, I thought "meh", and since then it's hard for me to be excited by hype and unreleased stuff.

there is this certain quality, mystery and elusiveness to something that is "in the vault" and unreleased, and people wonder "how would that song sound", but part of the excitement is the wonder and imagination. The day CD released is the day my excitement died.

Pure, true enjoyment I get out of those same albums I play everyday.

Keep peace, where there is peace I say. Sit back, relax, enjoy your favorite albums. You will be a liberated person, the day you stop caring about this shit.

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15 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

I was more talking about people who have established a channel of communication with TB, not anyone who can tag them in a post.

So they shit on you? It is ironic you blame TB for acting the victim when that is exactly the same thing you do. Well, TB sees it the same way. Remarkably how similar this whole feud is to children fighting. Each blaming the other part for being the ones who started it and the ones who are unfair to them. Neither accepting their own role in cementing the bad relations (even in the very thread where there has been numerous "fuck you TB" posts :lol:).

What I am saying is that at some point we just have break out of the cycle of insults and being triggered, at least if we actually want a working relationship with GN'R's management. Someone's got to be the adults here.

Did you miss the first part of my post? I'm not talking about "tagging them in a post". I'm talking about having direct contact through email and phone. There's nothing special about having that access as their email and phone numbers are common knowledge to anyone who wants them. And again, the only people who usually want access to TB are people trying to promote something of their own, like say, a GNR site. We've been through the pattern many times before where someone wants a connection to GNR to promote something for themselves, so all of a sudden they try to become TBs white online knight. 

Also, I've never said TB shit on me in particular. I have mentioned that they shit on the fans though. I'm able to make that statement because it's absolutely true. Calling me childish isn't going to change that, but you're welcome to post things like that if you feel if justifies your point. I'm not playing victim at all because, as I've said before, TB has never shit on me personally. The only reason I'm involved in this is because I very much care about my fellow GNR fans. I have absolutely nothing to gain from saying and doing these things outside of trying to defend fans who have absolutely no reason to be treated the way they are by the bands management. 

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2 minutes ago, RussTCB said:

Did you miss the first part of my post? I'm not talking about "tagging them in a post". I'm talking about having direct contact through email and phone. There's nothing special about having that access as their email and phone numbers are common knowledge to anyone who wants them. And again, the only people who usually want access to TB are people trying to promote something of their own, like say, a GNR site. We've been through the pattern many times before where someone wants a connection to GNR to promote something for themselves, so all of a sudden they try to become TBs white online knight. 

Also, I've never said TB shit on me in particular. I have mentioned that they shit on the fans though. I'm able to make that claim because it's absolutely true. Calling my childish isn't going to change that, but you're welcome to post things like that if you feel if justifies your point. I'm not playing victim at all because, as I've said before, TB has never shit on me personally. The only reason I'm involved in this is because I very much care about my fellow GNR fans. I have absolutely nothing to gain from saying and doing these things outside of trying to defend fans who have absolutely no reason to be treated the way they are by the bands management. 

I take it from the first paragraph that you insinuate I am both defending TB and do this to promote my own site. First, saying we should behave better when they aren't able to, is hardly a ringing endorsement of them. I would argue that my criticism of TB in this thread has been more on point than the majority of the braindead "they ruined GN'R!" Secondly, I am not promoting anything to them. I somehow think they wouldn't approve of the work I am doing anyway :lol:

How can it be so hard to grasp that communication is the only way forward here, rather than petulantly turning our backs to it all? You have given up, fine, I haven't. Okay?

Lastly, yes, I included you in the group of fans who feel you have been shit on by TB because your certainly act like it. If all of your indignation is only out of empathy for other fans, then that speaks volumes of your personality. I am impressed.

Still, feel free to actually comment on my overall point rather than act the victim:

"So they shit on fans? It is ironic you blame TB for acting the victim when that is exactly the same thing the fans do. Well, TB sees it the same way. Remarkably how similar this whole feud is to children fighting. Each blaming the other part for being the ones who started it and the ones who are unfair to them. Neither accepting their own role in cementing the bad relations (even in the very thread where there has been numerous "fuck you TB" posts :lol:).

What I am saying is that at some point we just have break out of the cycle of insults and being triggered, at least if we actually want a working relationship with GN'R's management. Someone's got to be the adults here."

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8 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

I take it from the first paragraph that you insinuate I am both defending TB and do this to promote my own site. First, saying we should behave better when they aren't able to, is hardly a ringing endorsement of them. I would argue that my criticism of TB in this thread has been more on point than the majority of the braindead "they ruined GN'R!" Secondly, I am not promoting anything to them. I somehow think they wouldn't approve of the work I am doing anyway :lol:

How can it be so hard to grasp that communication is the only way forward here, rather than petulantly turning our backs to it all? You have given up, fine, I haven't. Okay?

Lastly, yes, I included you in the group of fans who feel you have been shit on by TB because your certainly act like it. If all of your indignation is only out of empathy for other fans, then that speaks volumes of your personality. I am impressed.

Still, feel free to actually comment on my overall point rather than act the victim:

"So they shit on fans? It is ironic you blame TB for acting the victim when that is exactly the same thing the fans do. Well, TB sees it the same way. Remarkably how similar this whole feud is to children fighting. Each blaming the other part for being the ones who started it and the ones who are unfair to them. Neither accepting their own role in cementing the bad relations (even in the very thread where there has been numerous "fuck you TB" posts :lol:).

What I am saying is that at some point we just have break out of the cycle of insults and being triggered, at least if we actually want a working relationship with GN'R's management. Someone's got to be the adults here."

I can't keep wasting time going in circles on this. I have made myself clear more than a few times. 

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Just now, action said:

if you haven't given up, wouldn't it be better to try to contact TB and make the first step towards better relations, yourself?

I mean, you put so much energy in trying to convince @RussTCB to do something, but why not put that energy in actually doing so yourself?

Obviously, Russ is desillusioned by TB's arrogant behavious (and who can blame him), you are not, so maybe take it directly to TB? Don't rely on others: act yourself. Start with the man in the mirror.

I'm curious to the results you could provide us then.

Who said I haven't?

I am not trying to convince Russ to do anything, he has done more than enough with his letter from before.

But this is not a one man's job, I think. As I said before, people with a working communication must try to convince them (without acting like sore losers and without accusations) and the rest must try to not pour fuel on the fire. It might not work, but I am not ready to be all disillusioned, yet.

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26 minutes ago, action said:

I was never really interested in youtube videos to begin with. Not by guns n roses or others of my favorite bands. There are plenty of rare live performances and rare songs available all over youtube, by countless of bands. But somehow, I can't be bothered to watch them let alone download them.

I don't see much appeal in all of it.

I remember when that huge freddie boxset released in the year 2000, containing a gold mine of unheard freddie stuff. I listened to it maybe once or twice, thought it was cool, but then it sat on the shelf.

Same with concert DVD's: cool to view once, twice, but I ask myself: how much value does it "really" have?

If I look at my daily listening behaviour, it's always the same couple of albums I play, that I came to know and love.

There was a time, when I anxiously anticipated something like the newest GNR album. Then came out CD, I thought "meh", and since then it's hard for me to be excited by hype and unreleased stuff.

there is this certain quality, mystery and elusiveness to something that is "in the vault" and unreleased, and people wonder "how would that song sound", but part of the excitement is the wonder and imagination. The day CD released is the day my excitement died.

Pure, true enjoyment I get out of those same albums I play everyday.

Keep peace, where there is peace I say. Sit back, relax, enjoy your favorite albums. You will be a liberated person, the day you stop caring about this shit.

That is the opposite from me. I'd almost say if it wasn't for the bootlegs I would never have been a Guns fan, at least not to the degree I become (which is completely dissipated now  but that is besides the point). How could I be when they only have 4 bloody albums? Ritz and Deer Creek: that is the essence of the band, that sustained me as a fan. 

And my love of Stones and Shakey has increased greatly through boots. Couldn't see my fandom of the Stones be so passionate without those Stones '69-73 boots. Of course both those release ''official'' boots which Guns refuse to do.

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1 minute ago, SoulMonster said:

Who said I haven't?

 

what do you mean, "who said I haven't"? Why acting like a douche about this? have you, or have you not? if you did, what were the results?

I think that's important information, as it could give other people on the fence a clue if they should bother to contact them, or not.

 

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Just now, action said:

what do you mean, "who said I haven't"? Why acting like a douche about this? have you, or have you not? if you did, what were the results?

Well, you argued as if I hadn't been in contact with them, although the context of my last posts since yesterday, as well as Russ' recent posts, should have made it abundantly clear that I have. 

Nothing much I can share except suffice to say it is has informed my opinions on what we could possibly do to stop the takedowns and reestablish a working relationship that would be hugely beneficial to the fanbase. But I am a chronic optimist, I never really give up (on arguments or anything else). It could very well be that all hope is doomed and we should just revert to animals slinging feces.

 

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Just now, SoulMonster said:

Well, you argued as if I hadn't been in contact with them, although the context of my last posts since yesterday, as well as Russ' recent posts, should have made it abundantly clear that I have. 

Nothing much I can share except suffice to say it is has informed my opinions on what we could possibly do to stop the takedowns and reestablish a working relationship that would be hugely beneficial to the fanbase. But I am a chronic optimist, I never really give up (on arguments or anything else). It could very well be that all hope is doomed and we should just revert to animals slinging feces.

 

I don't disagree that we should always try to keep a healthy communication going. the fact that you have tried, is an important factor. Because, to communicate you have to be with two. One can try to keep communications going, but if the receiving party (TB in this case) isn't even interested in that, then you can try to find 1.000 more fans who also want to communicate: it don't change the fact that the receiver is not interested.

That's why your experience, first hand, is important to consider. If your intention is real, you would have already posted your experience large and wide on here.

But ok, you refuse to shed a light on your experiences with them. You're not genuinly concerned about this, you're just showing off and being half-mysterious about having had contact with TB. Ok then, move on guys. Nothing to see here. Next.

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8 hours ago, zigzagbigbag said:

This! 

Because in terms of the L&L boxset we are not talking about „emotional“ topics any longer like individual views of people how a band should communicate with their fans or a band should allow concert footage on YT any longer. We are talking about - as you said - „robbing“ hard earned money from the hardcore fans on purpose. And that’s still unacceptable.

If they would have cut the price after one or two years, I would buy your „welcome to capitalism argument“ (I know it will come). But they didn’t. They cut the price after a very few weeks up to 50% and more and denied a refund. Of course, there is no legal entitlement to a refund. But also there is not a single reason why the hardcore fans shouldn’t be allowed to say „fuck you“ to band/TB for even alone this single bitch move! In fact, this move speaks volumes. 

I agree with you, but at the same time I think that is on the fans who were foolish enough to buy it at full price on the first day it was available. We all knew that it would be discounted sooner or later.

 

20 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

That is the opposite from me. I'd almost say if it wasn't for the bootlegs I would never have been a Guns fan, at least not to the degree I become (which is completely dissipated now  but that is besides the point). How could I be when they only have 4 bloody albums? Ritz and Deer Creek: that is the essence of the band, that sustained me as a fan. 

And my love of Stones and Shakey has increased greatly through boots. Couldn't see my fandom of the Stones be so passionate without those Stones '69-73 boots. Of course both those release ''official'' boots which Guns refuse to do.

Same 

 

45 minutes ago, action said:

I was never really interested in youtube videos to begin with. Not by guns n roses or others of my favorite bands. There are plenty of rare live performances and rare songs available all over youtube, by countless of bands. But somehow, I can't be bothered to watch them let alone download them.

I don't see much appeal in all of it.

I remember when that huge freddie boxset released in the year 2000, containing a gold mine of unheard freddie stuff. I listened to it maybe once or twice, thought it was cool, but then it sat on the shelf.

Same with concert DVD's: cool to view once, twice, but I ask myself: how much value does it "really" have?

If I look at my daily listening behaviour, it's always the same couple of albums I play, that I came to know and love.

There was a time, when I anxiously anticipated something like the newest GNR album. Then came out CD, I thought "meh", and since then it's hard for me to be excited by hype and unreleased stuff.

there is this certain quality, mystery and elusiveness to something that is "in the vault" and unreleased, and people wonder "how would that song sound", but part of the excitement is the wonder and imagination. The day CD released is the day my excitement died.

Pure, true enjoyment I get out of those same albums I play everyday.

Keep peace, where there is peace I say. Sit back, relax, enjoy your favorite albums. You will be a liberated person, the day you stop caring about this shit.

Just because you don't use YouTube very much doesn't mean that others don't. For me YouTube was the main place I could go to see live footage of GnR, both classic era and now, but it's all gone now. So for me it's a really big deal that it's no longer available.

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37 minutes ago, MaskingApathy said:

Just because you don't use YouTube very much doesn't mean that others don't. For me YouTube was the main place I could go to see live footage of GnR, both classic era and now, but it's all gone now. So for me it's a really big deal that it's no longer available.

Yep, and that's why I've been so actively involved in this. 

Truth be told, I haven't watched a GNR video on YouTube in ages. I used to watch a ton from 07 and before, but I haven't used YouTube to watch GNR much since then. 

So overall, this really doesn't effect me directly. However, it really has a bad effect on many GNR fans and that's why it matters to me so much. 

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It’s a complicated issue. I don’t agree with the stance on YouTube/etc on a general music business level in 2019. I also don’t think anyone here is going to change that stance internally within the band/management as it pertains to Guns. That’s never been the way they’ve operated under any management team or lineup in the past. It’s isolated from outside forces 
 

It’s unfortunate as live shows/videos have kept the band’s online presence alive during dark periods. To turn their back on that experience now that they’re active and back playing large venues is really unfortunate. We’ll see what happens long term on that front if they fill that void in another way. Time will tell 

As far as forum/online relations. They don’t need us....right now. We’ll see when the crowd numbers subside and they want to release new music. They’ll need these types of fans then. With that number dwindling over the years and people becoming disinterested in that type of fandom with this act, it’ll be interesting to see how that plays out long term. You can see that somewhat from the lack of excitement from the recent leaks. I don’t think that happens 20 yrs ago. They’ve lost  engaged fans on that level because they haven’t been bothered to nurture the relationship. Other acts do this because it’s beneficial and they need them. Time will tell if that strategy pays off 

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5 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

I am not sure why you don't understand that what I am saying is not a complaint that no one has tried, but that we shouldn't give up on our efforts.

Why should we continue to make the effort and support the band/TB when they have quite clearly given up on us?

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

4 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

That is the opposite from me. I'd almost say if it wasn't for the bootlegs I would never have been a Guns fan, at least not to the degree I become (which is completely dissipated now  but that is besides the point). How could I be when they only have 4 bloody albums? Ritz and Deer Creek: that is the essence of the band, that sustained me as a fan. 

And my love of Stones and Shakey has increased greatly through boots. Couldn't see my fandom of the Stones be so passionate without those Stones '69-73 boots. Of course both those release ''official'' boots which Guns refuse to do.

This. Bootlegs keep dead bands alive.

Edit: And oh yeah, I forgot... fuck TB!

Edited by Azifwekare
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2 hours ago, Azifwekare said:

Why should we continue to make the effort and support the band/TB when they have quite clearly given up on us?

Because we are fond of live videos of the band and want to establish a functional relationship with the band. 

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