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Greta Thunberg's Groupie


Axl's Agony Aunt

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15 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

What the graphs show is that the temperature fluctuates (it is not a uniform gradient towards warmer weather); in periods it gets warmer, in periods it gets colder; but the overall trend (as you can see for the globe, for Norway, for Belgium, and for England) is that the trend is that it is getting warmer, and rapidly so. Of course, the climate fluctuates on a larger scale too (just think of periodic ice ages), and it is absolutely conceivable that at some point natural variation may result in a cooling period that takes us back to "normality". What worries the scientists though, is that the heating seen now (and shown in the graphs) is quicker than what we have measured has happened ever before, and that there is a human component to this that might suppress or overcome natural tendencies to cool in the future, resulting in a runaway process that will just result in the earth getting warmer and warmer. Anyway, these graphs doesn't really say anything about the causes, just demonstrates that the earth is warming, but with regional variation.

that's what I'm trying to tell you all along!

nobody, and I mean nobody, can be blind for the fact that if not the climate, then at least weather isn't what it used to be. What goes on in australia, canada, spain, venice... of course the climate is changing.

But it is like you say: all these graphs etc, do not say anything about the cause.

in stead of beating a dead horse (you're right, climate is changing, we can end that discussion), I'd rather see proof of the causes of climate change

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50 minutes ago, action said:

lucky belgium, rather. it means we can go on doing as we were

I think they just forgot about you. My shitty country is mentioned and there can't be that much difference between the two.

1 minute ago, DieselDaisy said:

It is glorious, this hotter weather. I spend most of the year with a tan like Roger Moore.

I'd advise you to wear a hat or use a lot of sunscreen for that bald head of yours, though!

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2 minutes ago, EvanG said:

I think they just forgot about you. My shitty country is mentioned and there can't be that much difference between the two.

 

and how happy I am for that. being forgotten an unnoticed makes for such a comfortable position. don't need no snoopers around here. let peace be, where there is peace I always say.

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2 minutes ago, action said:

that's what I'm trying to tell you all along!

nobody, and I mean nobody, can be blind for the fact that if not the climate, then at least weather isn't what it used to be. What goes on in australia, canada, spain, venice... of course the climate is changing.

But it is like you say: all these graphs etc, do not say anything about the cause.

in stead of beating a dead horse (you're right, climate is changing, we can end that discussion), I'd rather see proof of the causes of climate change

I guess the purpose of these graphs is convince those who point to regional cooling as evidence that the earth isn't warming up, by showing that although there are regional fluctuations, and at times some areas experience colder than usual weather, the overall trend, in each region and on the planet as a whole, is rapidly increasing temperatures. 

I am afraid I am also not entirely convinced everybody agrees that we are experiencing a rapidly warming planet. Some people refuse to accept even that in these polarized times.

9 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

It is glorious, this hotter weather. I spend most of the year with a tan like Roger Moore.

I think you meant Kojac.

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6 minutes ago, EvanG said:

I think they just forgot about you. My shitty country is mentioned and there can't be that much difference between the two.

I'd advise you to wear a hat or use a lot of sunscreen for that bald head of yours, though!

Luckily I have a full head of hair then.

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3 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

When I Iook at those graphs I say to myself, ''2016, that was a good season''. ''2018, basking in heat at Cheltenham that year I was''.

That's impressive, considering the graph designer didn't add any dates so as to make them as simple as possible and not confuse people. Obviously, they didn't have you in mind.

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It's almost February and I still haven't seen any snow. It's frustrating... it doesn't feel like winter but more like a very long autumn. Very boring too. And in summer we can expect several heat waves again with a humidity that will drive anyone crazy. How some people can get excited about this is beyond me.

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3 minutes ago, EvanG said:

It's almost February and I still haven't seen any snow. It's frustrating... it doesn't feel like winter but more like a very long autumn. Very boring too. And in summer we can expect several heat waves again with a humidity that will drive anyone crazy. How some people can get excited about this is beyond me.

I don't think he is genuinely excited. He just thinks anyone gets riled up by him demonstrating his ignorance, and not just amused.

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1 minute ago, SoulMonster said:

I don't think he is genuinely excited. He just thinks anyone gets riled up by him demonstrating his ignorance, and not just amused.

Oh, I know... I wasn't even referring to him. But there are people out there who seem to be excited about the changing climate because to them it only means less cold and warm summers, and that I don't understand.

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10 minutes ago, EvanG said:

Oh, I know... I wasn't even referring to him. But there are people out there who seem to be excited about the changing climate because to them it only means less cold and warm summers, and that I don't understand.

Well, if you are stupid and think that the ongoing climate change will result in it stabilizing on whatever your comfort temperature happens to be and at the same time have no concern for how this affects other people, then I get it :)

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Personally speaking, I might benefit from warmer weather since I am not too fond of the long winters where I live and wouldn't mind somewhat warmer summers. But of course it isn't that simple. Together with higher temperatures comes more unpredictable weather (which I don't like), more rain and wind (where I live at least), and slush instead of snow in winters (which is just pointless). Then comes the effects on fauna and flora which we have just started to see here where I live, and which quite frankly scare me. An example are seasonal bloom of bloodsucking ticks that instantly benefit from warmer weather and now migrate northwards, while it takes longer for the ecosystem to adjust with sufficient tick predators to keep them in check. So in areas of Norway people have stopped being out in the forest during tick season Then there's warmer coasts that affect fish populations. And melting glaciers. A lot of this are just changes, but they cause disturbances to ecosystems that results in imbalances between predators and prey, between symbiotic relationships, that goes beyond mere change to be qualitative worsening. And of course no man, or country, is an island. What we see here is nothing compared to what is happening in more affected regions like pacific islands that are swallowed by the sea, coastal cities that risk flooding (should resonate with the Dutch), extreme drought in already famine-risk regions, etc etc.

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what I don't understand is the notion that, even if we wanted to, we could do anything actively to change the climate back to normal, on a global scale. as a civilisation we just do not have the means to alter the climate to our "wishes". and even if we are the cause of climate change; that is just a consequence of "living". living, consuming, is what we do. to "revert" the climate back to normal would require efforts of colossal proportions.

"terra forming" is something of science fiction, by this point

you all do realise that this world is finished, do you? it won't get better from here on out, it will get worse and it will increasingly get worse.

just enjoy your time here, long or short it may last.

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13 minutes ago, action said:

what I don't understand is the notion that, even if we wanted to, we could do anything actively to change the climate back to normal, on a global scale. as a civilisation we just do not have the means to alter the climate to our "wishes". and even if we are the cause of climate change; that is just a consequence of "living". living, consuming, is what we do. 

First off, if there is a human component to climate change than obviously we can affect the climate.

Secondly, it is not the fact that we cause CO2 emissions that is the problem here. every living thing does. But that we cause excessive CO2 emissions. So it is not the case of stopping us living and thus ending our carbon emission completely, but changing our behavior to a point where our total CO2 emissions have dropped back down below this threshold. 

And it is ignorant to think we can't possibly change our ways. A fairly comparable example is the ozone layer. I don't know if you lived through the ozone layer panic in the 80s? It turned out that our emission of ozone degrading gases (particularly CFCs) resulted in the ozon layer being destroyed. Well, we seem to have fixed that by implementing rules and regulations regarding CFC gases. So yes, we can affect the climate and yes, we can change our ways.

The question is of course can we change our ways to reduce carbon emissions specifically? Because that seems somewhat more difficult than banning CFCs. And hooray! climate experts have outlined several mitigating factors that, if implemented by politicians across the world (or at least in those countries that cause the most emissions), are expected to reduce carbon emissions below this threshold and slow down global warming. I am in no position to verify that these mitigating steps are sufficient, but I tend to trust the consensus from experts.

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14 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

First off, if there is a human component to climate change than obviously we can affect the climate.

Secondly, it is not the fact that we cause CO2 emissions that is the problem here. every living thing does. But that we cause excessive CO2 emissions. So it is not the case of stopping us living and thus ending our carbon emission completely, but changing our behavior to a point where our total CO2 emissions have dropped back down below this threshold. 

And it is ignorant to think we can't possibly change our ways. A fairly comparable example is the ozone layer. I don't know if you lived through the ozone layer panic in the 80s? It turned out that our emission of ozone degrading gases (particularly CFCs) resulted in the ozon layer being destroyed. Well, we seem to have fixed that by implementing rules and regulations regarding CFC gases. So yes, we can affect the climate and yes, we can change our ways.

The question is of course can we change our ways to reduce carbon emissions specifically? Because that seems somewhat more difficult than banning CFCs. And hooray! climate experts have outlined several mitigating factors that, if implemented by politicians across the world (or at least in those countries that cause the most emissions), are expected to reduce carbon emissions below this threshold and slow down global warming. I am in no position to verify that these mitigating steps are sufficient, but I tend to trust the consensus from experts.

our actions have consequences. I can light a fire, and it will get warmer in the room. I can place warmers outside, and people can enjoy their coffee outside when its cold. by our very existence, we produce CO2 and contribute to the CO2 in the atmosphere. But when we are (hypothetically), the cause of climate change, then it is by no means a "wanted" consequence of our actions. and THAT is where the problem is.

what we "want" is worlds apart of what we "cause" by our actions.

we can affect the climate, but we can not affect it any way we want. we can't even affect the weather like how we want it to, let alone the climate. The very concept is utter science fiction.

I didn't say we can not change our ways. I said, even if we all change our ways, it won't make much difference and the world will go to shit anyways.

so that's two very important points you fail to understand.

the question is thus not "can we change our ways to reduce carbon emissions specifically", but rather "can we revert the climate back to more acceptable standards", but the answer is a resounding no.

Imagine the parameters that need to be computed, to come up with  a number of CO2 that needs to be lowered, in order to produce a certain world-scale climate that is nicely adjusted to our needs. Surely you, in all your knowledge, should agree that the mere task of producing such a guideline provides an impossible task? who's not to say that, if we drop CO2 emissions too low, we're getting a "fridge" effect? there is a delicate balance here, to be achieved AND maintained.

The mere notion that mankind is capable of such a thing, is a thought pattern from the middle ages or something, when king canute ordered the waves of the sea to back off.

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2 minutes ago, action said:

I didn't say we can not change our ways. I said, even if we all change our ways, it won't make much difference and the world will go to shit anyways.

There is something fundamental about you believing things will go to shit even if we implement the changes that have been identified by the experts to be required to turn the trend. I know who I will trust ;)

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15 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

There is something fundamental about you believing things will go to shit even if we implement the changes that have been identified by the experts to be required to turn the trend. I know who I will trust ;)

https://www.businessinsider.com/china-sets-aside-millions-to-control-the-rain-2016-7?r=US&IR=T

I maintain what I said. the mere concept of mankind being able to control the weather / climate (!) is bordering on the clownesque

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6 minutes ago, action said:

Imagine the parameters that need to be computed, to come up with  a number of CO2 that needs to be lowered, in order to produce a certain world-scale climate that is nicely adjusted to our needs. Surely you, in all your knowledge, should agree that the mere task of producing such a guideline provides an impossible task? 

Yet this is exactly what the experts have done :lol:

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Just now, SoulMonster said:

Yet this is exactly what the experts have done :lol:

oh, they have a computer the size of earth?

can scientists make the sun shine tomorrow? (change the weather)

everyone will answer, no, what a stupid question to ask.

...yet, it's somehow accepted we can change the climate.

 

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12 minutes ago, action said:

who's not to say that, if we drop CO2 emissions too low, we're getting a "fridge" effect?

Scientists :lol:

You don't seem to be aware the carbon cycle buffering effect. There is not a complete linearity between CO emissions and temperature, there is a huuuuge areas where changes to emission don't cause an effect on temperature because of carbon cycle buffering. So what we need to do, is get back to that point where stability has been regained. 

4 minutes ago, action said:

oh, they have a computer the size of earth?

can scientists make the sun shine tomorrow? (change the weather)

everyone will answer, no, what a stupid question to ask.

...yet, it's somehow accepted we can change the climate.

Again, the ozon layer example proves we can change some aspects of the climate ;).  That doesn't mean we can control the weather, but we can certainly change the concentrations of some gases in the atmosphere. At least that result from our own actions. It is like you stubbornly refuse to accept science because you have just made up your mind :lol:

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5 minutes ago, action said:

https://www.businessinsider.com/china-sets-aside-millions-to-control-the-rain-2016-7?r=US&IR=T

I mainting what I said. the mere concept of mankind being able to control the weather / climate (!) is bordering on the clownesque

Controlling the weather on short term is vastly different from reducing carbon emissions ;) You seem to conflate issues.

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2 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Scientists :lol:

 

well, I guess then you're right and I'm wrong :lol: 

3 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Controlling the weather on short term is vastly different from reducing carbon emissions ;) You seem to conflate issues.

it is. to control the weather, you need to change circumstances for one particular point in time. To change the climate, you need to change it for a long period of time.

but I have a feeling you'll respond with "scientists", so I accept defeat in advance

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19ab2754-f7dc-40b9-9306-a1a36ab4fab3_l.j

this is soulmonster on his throne, telling the sea to back off. beside him, is the scientist who told him he could do that

In Huntingdon's account, Canute set his throne by the sea shore and commanded the incoming tide to halt and not wet his feet and robes. Yet "continuing to rise as usual the tide dashed over his feet and legs without respect to his royal person. Then the king leapt backwards, saying: 'Let all men know how empty and worthless is the power of kings, for there is none worthy of the name, but He whom heaven, earth, and sea obey by eternal laws.'" He then hung his gold crown on a crucifix, and never wore it again "to the honour of God the almighty King"

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