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Why Are We Still Rewarding Guns N' Roses in 2019? (Esquire Article)


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On 30-4-2019 at 11:35 PM, Original said:

"WHHHHHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!! STOP LIKING WHAT I DON'T LIKE!! WHHHHHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!"

Seriously, what a dumb cunt. 

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Why do we give dumb stuff like this so much attention? 5 pages already? Are we that desperate for something new to talk about?

This is the kind of thing a 7 year old would write about why so-and-so artist smells poopy, it had no business being published, let alone discussed.

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I dunno, I'm all for critical articles myself.  There's this awful thing in music now (and culture in general) where any form of criticism is called being 'a hater', this weird post-hip hop insult that serves as a method to effectively make the person in question impervious from judgement.  Either that or 'negative', you're being negative, negative energy, well I've always liked a bit of negative, part of free speech and a free press is being free to say whether you think someone or something is full of shit, regardless of whether I like the person or not, there's a place for dissent, satire and criticism, in fact its essential.

Edited by Len Cnut
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9 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

I dunno, I'm all for critical articles myself.  There's this awful thing in music now (and culture in general) where any form of criticism is called being 'a hater', this weird post-hip hop insult that serves as a method to effectively make the person in question impervious from judgement.  Either that or 'negative', you're being negative, negative energy, well I've always liked a bit of negative, part of free speech and a free press is being free to say whether you think someone or something is full of shit, regardless of whether I like the person or not, there's a place for dissent, satire and criticism, in fact its essential.

It is toddler type behaviour this sycophantic type of band worship whereby anyone who criticises ''your'' band - in this case GN'R - must be an hater/arsehole/shit musician etc etc. 

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20 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

It is toddler type behaviour this sycophantic type of band worship whereby anyone who criticises ''your'' band - in this case GN'R - must be an hater/arsehole/shit musician etc etc. 

Its worth noting also that GnR are a pretty popular band, the voices of dissent or disdain are, relative to years past, few and far between.  I could understand if this was 93 and everyone and their mother was out there slagging off GnR but they're really not, quite the opposite actually. 

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37 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

I dunno, I'm all for critical articles myself.  There's this awful thing in music now (and culture in general) where any form of criticism is called being 'a hater', this weird post-hip hop insult that serves as a method to effectively make the person in question impervious from judgement.  Either that or 'negative', you're being negative, negative energy, well I've always liked a bit of negative, part of free speech and a free press is being free to say whether you think someone or something is full of shit, regardless of whether I like the person or not, there's a place for dissent, satire and criticism, in fact its essential.

I'm all for fair criticism and I agree with everything you said there. But this particular guy just has trouble dealing with people liking something he doesn't like. I don't like that attitude. It has to have a point, you know.

I'm not buying GnR tickets anymore because there's nothing new anymore. But if other people do because they enjoy it, good for them. 

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28 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

I dunno, I'm all for critical articles myself.  There's this awful thing in music now (and culture in general) where any form of criticism is called being 'a hater', this weird post-hip hop insult that serves as a method to effectively make the person in question impervious from judgement.  Either that or 'negative', you're being negative, negative energy, well I've always liked a bit of negative, part of free speech and a free press is being free to say whether you think someone or something is full of shit, regardless of whether I like the person or not, there's a place for dissent, satire and criticism, in fact its essential.

I heard CBC's Tom Power interview one of the members of Nsync recently and Powers mentioned that their track Pop marked the turning point in 'critical' appraisals of music, especially when based on the merits of form. The song is in defence of pop music and calls out the 'haters.' Pop was once mostly for teens and a guilty pleasure of smart rock fans, but then pop became a legitimate form of music for adults to like as their main music. And since pops primary characteristic is 'fun' then there is a paradigm shift where one would be perceived as an asshole for attacking someones fun. Their conversation made a lot of sense to me.

I certainly welcome harsh and sarcastic commentary. I read this guy as being quite irreverent, which I think is very rock n roll!! And I wish there was a lot more social/economic/political discourse in rock criticism. But going by the Pop theory this article shit on some peoples fun, maybe? The various perceptions of what Guns is in 2019 dictates how one would read that article.

 

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34 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

*puts you in headlock* Yeah, unless the hater in question is making ridiculous claims like "Sex Pistols have more hits than GNR!", eh old boy? :lol:

I think you'll find that was Dies', not me :lol:  If I was to get into a tizzy everytime someone slagged off The Sex Pistols I'd've died of a heart attack long ago, they are pretty consistently slagged off since their inception.  Its sort of a badge of honour for me, the horriblest band in the world, I have an on-going affection for pantomine villainy, there's a wonderful line in the beginning of The Great Rock n Roll Swindle, 'the most notorious filthy disgusting dirtiest rock n roll band in the whole bloody world!', things like that are just curry to a pisshead for me, I find it delightful, anything like that immediately draws my attention ever since I was a kid and still does :lol: 

THAT, above, coming from a London Councillor, for a band...wow :lol:  'they are the antithesis of humankind' 'the whole world would be vastly improved by their total and utter non existence', 'i'd like to see someone dig a very large exceedingly deep hole and throw the whole bloody lot down it'...and with that, Len fell in love :wub:  This horrible ugly thing that crawled out of the gutters of the wanking shops of Soho, deformed Rotten, thieving bastard Steve Jones, hooligan Paul Cook, horrible unwashed guttersnipes with a Dickensian rag trade charlatan by the name of McLaren (mis)managing them, its almost like a fairytale, too brilliant to be real and too real to be a fairytale.  Banned across the country, banned on the air, banned in Europe, fired from 2 different record companies without even releasing an album, went to America and blew up when they finally reached their moment in the sun...only to release a film later which suggested it was all a big stunt by the manager, this Fagin-like character who was doing it to rob record companies of recording advances before running off into the sunset...they even managed to find Ronnie Biggs in Brazil and get him in the film...oh and Martin Bormann :lol:  McLaren prancing about in his Tartan suit before posters of Myra Hindley and Ian Brady doing a Max Bygraves number, God, its just glorious.  Don't get me started on the Sex Pistols, I'll go on all day, still the greatest band there ever was!  Point being, insult to my favourite band does quite the opposite of bother me, part of what made them attractive, apart from the 'what-the-fuck'ness of the music was the fact everyone seemed to think they were absolute scum.  In fact part of why i liked GnR back in the day is that there was a bit of that to them, just a band of L.A. scumbags of questionable morals :lol:  The best music is often made by bands of questionable morals.

 

33 minutes ago, username said:

I'm all for fair criticism and I agree with everything you said there. But this particular guy just has trouble dealing with people liking something he doesn't like. I don't like that attitude. It has to have a point, you know.

I'm not buying GnR tickets anymore because there's nothing new anymore. But if other people do because they enjoy it, good for them. 

I quite enjoy the scurrilous and irreverent too sometimes.  My sisters subscription to Private Eye apparently had a lasting effect on me :lol:

Edited by Len Cnut
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25 minutes ago, soon said:

I heard CBC's Tom Power interview one of the members of Nsync recently and Powers mentioned that their track Pop marked the turning point in 'critical' appraisals of music, especially when based on the merits of form. The song is in defence of pop music and calls out the 'haters.' Pop was once mostly for teens and a guilty pleasure of smart rock fans, but then pop became a legitimate form of music for adults to like as their main music. And since pops primary characteristic is 'fun' then there is a paradigm shift where one would be perceived as an asshole for attacking someones fun. Their conversation made a lot of sense to me.

I certainly welcome harsh and sarcastic commentary. I read this guy as being quite irreverent, which I think is very rock n roll!! And I wish there was a lot more social/economic/political discourse in rock criticism. But going by the Pop theory this article shit on some peoples fun, maybe? The various perceptions of what Guns is in 2019 dictates how one would read that article.

 

I've always thought of rock n roll as pop music, the 'smart rock fan' looking down on the Take That or NSYNC fan to me is like the bloke with one leg looking down on the bloke in a wheelchair.

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9 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

I've always thought of rock n roll as pop music, the 'smart rock fan' looking down on the Take That or NSYNC fan to me is like the bloke with one leg looking down on the bloke in a wheelchair.

I kinda liked me some Take That back in the day.... just saying... *runs away*

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12 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

If I was to get into a tizzy everytime someone slagged off The Sex Pistols I'd've died of a heart attack long ago, they are pretty consistently slagged off since their inception.  Its sort of a badge of honour for me, the horriblest band in the world, I have an on-going affection for pantomine villainy, there's a wonderful line in the beginning of The Great Rock n Roll Swindle, 'the most notorious filthy disgusting dirtiest rock n roll band in the whole bloody world!', things like that are just curry to a pisshead for me, I find it delightful, anything like that immediately draws my attention ever since I was a kid and still does :lol: 

THAT, above, coming from a London Councillor, for a band...wow :lol:  'they are the antithesis of humankind' 'the whole world would be vastly improved by their total and utter non existence', 'i'd like to see someone dig a very large exceedingly deep hole and throw the whole bloody lot down it'...and with that, Len fell in love :wub:  This horrible ugly thing that crawled out of the gutters of the wanking shops of Soho, deformed Rotten, thieving bastard Steve Jones, hooligan Paul Cook, horrible unwashed guttersnipes with a Dickensian rag trade charlatan by the name of McLaren (mis)managing them, its almost like a fairytale, too brilliant to be real and too real to be a fairytale. 

I think it depends on whether they're slagged by the "cool" (or the ones who pass themselves as "cool") and the "hip" ones or by the uncool ones. I don't think this London Councilor was ever perceived as a cool person by the potential audience of a rock band :lol:; as neither was Tipper Gore, for example, or neither would be a head of the Police or the Pope.

So when your favourite band is slagged by uncool authority figures, it is a badge of honour. But when it comes from a "hip" magazine or whatever it's another story.

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12 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

I think it depends on whether they're slagged by the "cool" (or the ones who pass themselves as "cool") and the "hip" ones or by the uncool ones. I don't think this London Councilor was ever perceived as a cool person by the potential audience of a rock band :lol:; as neither was Tipper Gore, for example, or neither would be a head of the Police or the Pope.

So when your favourite band is slagged by uncool authority figures, it is a badge of honour. But when it comes from a "hip" magazine or whatever it's another story.

The hip magazines and publications of the time were none too complimentary either.  The vast majority of them anyway.  But yeah, I get your point. 

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21 minutes ago, EvanG said:

I kinda liked me some Take That back in the day.... just saying... *runs away*

Yes run...run for your life :lol:  There's a point here though, for example, a lot of people hate pop music but like, there's always this thing of like 'oh I'm gonna have such and such in my head all day now', its almost like, subconciously, though the song is catchy (which could be said to be like, a form of effectiveness as a piece of work) they don't like that they like it or don't want to like it cuz you shouldn't...or something.  Or perhaps its just the cultural bombardment you get from certain bands at the height of their popularity.  I don't like The Spice Girls...or Take That...or Britney Spears...I probably know the lyrics of more than a few of their songs, gimme a couple of lines and I could finish that shit off for you. 

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I know it was DD that's why I said it to him, lispy. :lol:

Whoops, so you did! :lol:

Quote

I still can't believe you hate Pink Floyd tbh. You know Rotten was only kidding and actually likes them eh? 

Rotten can like what he likes, I still think they're a load of pants and its probably something to do with him to a point.  I'm an ignorant little git and disliked em before I'd heard em.  But I got a little older and gave em a go and they were still shite but perhaps my prior brainwashing on the matter coloured my approach.

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I can accept someone not wanting to listen to The Beatles or Guns N' Roses but if they were to say they're crap bands and have no good songs I'd think they're objectively wrong and possess an objectively poor opinion in the context of universal truth; which would irritate me somewhat lol. The inaccuracy of it.

Whenever something becomes unassailable, including my beloved Beatles, part of me inside enjoy a bit of irreverence towards it/them, even if it ain't coming from me.

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Just now, Len Cnut said:

Yes run...run for your life :lol:  You make a fair point though.  For example, a lot of people hate pop music but like, there's always this thing of like 'oh I'm gonna have such and such in my head all day now', its almost like, subconciously, though the song is catchy (which could be said to be like, a form of effectiveness as a piece of work) they don't like that they like it or don't want to like it cuz you shouldn't...or something.  Or perhaps its just the cultural bombardment you get from certain bands at the height of their popularity.  I don't like The Spice Girls...or Take That...or Britney Spears...I probably know the lyrics of more than a few of their songs, gimme a couple of lines and I could finish that shit off for you. 

I liked most of those boy and girl bands to be honest. Their songs couldn't be more catchy, it's pop music at its finest. But they were often so overproduced that it was hard to enjoy the production. But Take That was different, it was more ''real''. That Gary Barlow guy wrote all the songs and played piano. Songs like Back For Good and Never Forget would have been considered pop classics had they been performed by someone other than a boy band because they are really great songs.

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12 minutes ago, EvanG said:

I liked most of those boy and girl bands to be honest. Their songs couldn't be more catchy, it's pop music at its finest. But they were often so overproduced that it was hard to enjoy the production. But Take That was different, it was more ''real''. That Gary Barlow guy wrote all the songs and played piano. Songs like Back For Good and Never Forget would have been considered pop classics had they been performed by someone other than a boy band because they are really great songs.

I guess its the 'manufactured' thing that gets people but thats not really anything to do with the songs or how they are performed.

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2 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

I guess its the 'manufactured' thing that gets people but thats not really anything to do with the songs or how they are performed.

Remember East 17? They were pretty badass for a ten year old.

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11 minutes ago, EvanG said:

Remember East 17? They were pretty badass for a ten year old.

I remember them, yes.  I was listening to Guns n Roses and The Monkees at that age.  That and the radio.  I dunno what its like in Holland (you are from Holland aren't you, that was a shot in the dark) but that kinda music over here was more like a girls thing?  And when you're that age you're a lot more sensitive to those kinds of demarkations.  Brian Harvey their lead singer was kinda of a by-word for dickhead around these parts.  I don't think I've ever met a boy/lad/man in my life that listened to that kinda stuff :lol:

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12 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

You are too kind.

My niece started singing this a while back. Stuff like this is absolute trash, objectively, catchy or not. 

P.S. Look at her YouTube icon thing; illuminati confirmed.

My little niece tried to fuckin' argue with me that Bad Bhabie was admirable because 'shes done well for herself, made some money and that'.  I threatened to stab her so she retracted her statement. 

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9 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

I remember them, yes.  I was listening to Guns n Roses and The Monkees at that age.  That and the radio.  I dunno what its like in Holland (you are from Holland aren't you, that was a shot in the dark) but that kinda music over here was more like a girls thing?  And when you're that age you're a lot more sensitive to those kinds of demarkations.  Brian Harvey their lead singer was kinda of a by-word for dickhead around these parts.  I don't think I've ever met a boy/lad/man in my life that listened to that kinda stuff :lol:

Here too, it was probably like that everywhere, I'm willing to bet that 99% of the kids in their audience were girls no matter where they went, but I have an older sister and they were on MTV all the time when MTV still played music. I was into rock at that age and I probably wouldn't admit to my rock friends that I liked the new Take That song, but now I have no problems anymore admitting to a bunch of strangers online, who I will never meet, that I used to enjoy some Take That.

Edited by EvanG
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10 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

Slap your niece immediately lol. That's actually pretty upsetting she thinks of that idiot as a role model. We are in dark days, Leonard. The youths have lost their way.

I'm serious too, I did threaten to stab her :lol:  Though not seriously, obviously and she understood it was a joke as is 90% of such ridiculous comments I make :lol:  But nah, yeah, thats a real thing, she was even saying the same thing about Kim Kardashian once, that 'she's such a strong powerful woman' or some such bollocks and I'm there thinking 'you're my 14 yr old niece, I don't particularly wannabe talking to you about sex stuff but she's famous for having Ray J's helmet poke her tonsils!'.

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15 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

Your niece is giving me anxiety.

I had to explain to mine that "Real women don't look like Nicki Minaj. That's bags of plastic in her butt. Yuck eh?"

O brave new world...

She's a fuckin' intelligent kid and all, really bright academically, reads a shitload, you'd think she'd have more sense, the scatty little mare.  Her justification of Bhad Babie was 'she's only 14 and she's made a load of money' and its like, fuckin' hell, thats your fuckin' yardstick of like...substance?  Then again, who am I to judge, when I was her age I liked Mike Tyson cuz he was hard and knocked people the fuck out, I've just got done in this thread saying I liked The Sex Pistols cuz they were a bunch of wrong 'uns.  I can remember my Dads first reaction to GnR too 'whats that?  He looks like a poof. And whats wrong with that other one, whys he got all his hair in his face, is he disabled?' :lol:  I remember it chiefly because the last bit made me crack up laughing :lol:

Edited by Len Cnut
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13 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Legend your dad.

I don't know why any of its difficult for him to comprehend, he comes from the era of Bolan and Bowie and all that, he'll catch Bowie doing Starman on TOTP back in the day and be like 'oh I remember that!' and get all nostalgic yet Axl Rose is a poof :lol: He was all long hair and wide collars back in the day himself.    

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