Did Slash and Duff return to Gn’R as “employees”?

[Len Cnut]

When the fuck did fans of music become so fuckin' interested in this shit?   Oh right, yeah, when bands don't make music..

[denin]

Aye, tis what we get when the frontman releases more lawsuits than albums for two decades straight.

[Len Cnut]

13 minutes ago, denin said:

Aye, tis what we get when the frontman releases more lawsuits than albums for two decades straight.

Personally I couldn't give a fuck and I'm not sure why anyone would care.  You're either gonna get tours and music or you're not, if the former good for you if not, oh well, nevermind, what good is knowing who gets how much money gonna do, I am not interested in the slow moving reality TV show of the lives of a bunch of middle aged musicians, its about as useful information to a music fan as what kind of conditioner they use. 

[Blackstar]

20 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

When the fuck did fans of music become so fuckin' interested in this shit?   Oh right, yeah, when bands don't make music..

Kind of, yes  But sometimes bands can be interesting outside and beyond the music they make (or not) and that's why we read about them, their stories, their biographies and want to know every detail about them.

The GnR story is interesting in a "cheap," twisted kind of way. It's one of the best stories having all the ingredients of an addictive soap opera. And this business shit is part of all the power game drama in the soap opera 

[Len Cnut]

13 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

Kind of, yes  But sometimes bands can be interesting outside and beyond the music they make (or not) and that's why we read about them

Yeah, perhaps, if they live interesting bohemian lives and are holed up in Tangiers trying to seek out The Master Musicians of Joujouka or living some kind of unusual or intense lifestyle that feeds their rampant creativity to where the information contextualises the work.  But these rich hollywood fucks are about as interesting as the Kardashian slags.  Mind you, they have a longstanding reality TV show with millions of viewers so perhaps I'm in the minority here. 

[Blackstar]

11 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

Yeah, perhaps, if they live interesting bohemian lives and are holed up in Tangiers trying to seek out The Master Musicians of Joujouka or living some kind of unusual or intense lifestyle that feeds their rampant creativity to where the information contextualises the work.  But these rich hollywood fucks are about as interesting as the Kardashian slags.  Mind you, they have a longstanding reality TV show with millions of viewers so perhaps I'm in the minority here. 

Yes, but also, for the Stones for example, there's stuff besides the rock 'n' roll mythology surrounding them, like, for example, that they didn't have control of their publishing or, later, that they didn't give credits to Mick Taylor etc, that many fans want to know about. And the other stuff is rock 'n' roll mythology really, as there are musicians with "relatively" boring lifestyles who made great music though.

I've never watched a reality show, but I was addicted to a soap opera some years ago for the first time of my life . Then it ended and I felt a void, and then I rediscovered my interest for Guns N' Roses 

[Gnrcane]

14 hours ago, Blackstar said:

 

Currently, Guns N' Roses as a business is an active partnership of Axl, Slash and Duff:

(From the the recent lawsuit document against Oskar Blues brewery)

I don't think they can be partners (= shareholders/co-owners of the business) and employees (=hired hands by the owners) at the same time. They're clearly partners, legally.

They can and 100% must be shareholders and employees at the same time.  It is part of the tax code.  Since they are performing in concert, they must be paid "wages" for that out of the business at some reasonable rate.  If they just paid everybody else and split the profit, they'd be evading social security and medicare taxes.  In order to avoid trouble with the IRS, the three of them must take a salary for performances that is at least somewhat more than the other musicians.  If they ever record an album, the same would apply for the time spent in the studio.

[gnfnrs1972]

New question. Could Steven sue the entity Guns N Roses for using his likeness in support of a band he is not a part of anymore?

[soon]

4 minutes ago, gnfnrs1972 said:

New question. Could Steven sue the entity Guns N Roses for using his likeness in support of a band he is not a part of anymore?

Gilby did, I believe successfully (settled out of court iirc). Around 1994 about the use of his likeness on the pin ball machine.

Im not sure, but perhaps the use of Adlers likeness was addressed in his initial termination suit? 

[BadApples87]

There must be royalties paid to Izzy and Steven for the use of their image/likeness in GNR.

Good news for Steven is that he is credited with co-writing all the AFD songs (along with the other original guys), so I am sure he gets royalties from that.

Izzy surely gets song-writing royalties from all the 87-91 material.  He is set for life even if he never shows up again.

[guitarpatch]

1 hour ago, gnfnrs1972 said:

New question. Could Steven sue the entity Guns N Roses for using his likeness in support of a band he is not a part of anymore?

Don’t think they’ve used his likeness in any new ways. Anything old from his time in the band, such as the AFD cover, is still owned by the entity and/or label. I’m also sure the settlement back in the 90’s tied up any loose ends on that front. 

He does still receive royalties/publishing from his writing credits which is separate.

[Ratam]

I think they never broken they partnership, i remember when Axl need released "Appetite for Democracy" video, he need Slash permission. I recall that had fuss about this video.

[guitarpatch]

37 minutes ago, Ratam said:

I think they never broken they partnership, i remember when Axl need released "Appetite for Democracy" video, he need Slash permission. I recall that had fuss about this video.

Correct. The original partnership never ended. They made decisions for decades when it came to the use of licensing, logo trademarks, merch with those trademarks, etc of everything that resulted from that band.

New GNR is a completely separate business legally that just so happens to have the same name. For example, it’s why they never could use the bullet logo (it’s not their trademark).

While still working together under that original partnership, they still wouldn’t allow each other to release dvd’s with GNR songs (a synch license is needed). Axl possibly tried to re-record AFD to circumvent the need for permission to use them in movies, and possibly why Izzy wasn’t granted equal footing when they reunited (he cashed out when he quit and didn’t put in the effort to keep a big reunion pay day possible).

It’s a lot of work and their decisions (while possibly sabotaging for each other at times) did keep awareness for the band throughout those years and also created multiple revenue streams that they grew over time.

I’m sure lawyers/managers made out like bandits 

Edited May 23, 2019 by guitarpatch

[nycgunner]

On 5/22/2019 at 11:57 AM, allwaystired said:

Massive question, and I don't think anyone (bar those directly involved) knows, other than speculation. 

It's probably quite likely some sort of deal was cut which gave band members a specific percentage of takings, negotiated by their individual managers. In that sense they could be defined as 'employees', but that term is somewhat simplifying things. It's hard to imagine anyone negotiated a stake in the 'GNR business' name, but who knows? They could well have done. 

Ultimately though, it's pretty probably that even Axl is technically an "employee" of GNR. The money will go to GNR as a business, that will then pay "employees" from that central pool, much in the same way as any business does. That Axl owns the GNR name is somewhat moot at this juncture; he's still classed as an 'employee'. Ultimately, should GNR go 'bust' or 'bankrupt' for any reason he would be protected from that to a certain degree by that status. 

Hope that helps! 

And this as well, yeah. Sounds like all own the trademark, which would give them that stream of revenue too, between them. I think owning the trademark is different from owning the business, but I could be wrong there. That's as far as my knowledge goes - others may know more! 

Alternative could be that Axl, Slash, and Duff are shareholders in a LLC or limited partnership.  Presumably, they’d do an LLC, which would be more common and a better decision legally.  

My guess is they created a new legal entity (an LLC), Axl contributed the rights to GNR (since he controlled or owned it) in exchange for partnership interest units in a newly formed LLC. Revenue generated by concerts, merch, music are revenue at the LLC and net earnings (post all expenses, including employee costs for Dizzy, Melissa, Richard and Frank, and mgmt fees by Beta and team) are distributed to the three unit holders (aka shareholders)

But this is pure speculation!

 

[gnfnrs1972]

3 hours ago, soon said:

Gilby did, I believe successfully (settled out of court iirc). Around 1994 about the use of his likeness on the pin ball machine.

Im not sure, but perhaps the use of Adlers likeness was addressed in his initial termination suit? 

I agree with you but there are always lots of opinions out there. 

Edited May 23, 2019 by gnfnrs1972

[hitmanhart408]

7 minutes ago, nycgunner said:

Alternative could be that Axl, Slash, and Duff are shareholders in a LLC or limited partnership.  Presumably, they’d do an LLC, which would be more common and a better decision legally.  

My guess is they created a new legal entity (an LLC), Axl contributed the rights to GNR (since he controlled or owned it) in exchange for partnership interest units in a newly formed LLC. Revenue generated by concerts, merch, music are revenue at the LLC and net earnings (post all expenses, including employee costs for Dizzy, Melissa, Richard and Frank, and mgmt fees by Beta and team) are distributed to the three unit holders (aka shareholders)

But this is pure speculation!

 

 

I spent about 5 minutes searching this last night. I didn't find any "new" corporations or LLC. The original GNR, Inc is still dissolved while Axl renewed Black Frog Entities and Black Frog Music about two months ago. Again, I didn't really spend much time on it. Anyone can go search the California corporations site. 

[nycgunner]

10 minutes ago, hitmanhart408 said:

 

I spent about 5 minutes searching this last night. I didn't find any "new" corporations or LLC. The original GNR, Inc is still dissolved while Axl renewed Black Frog Entities and Black Frog Music about two months ago. Again, I didn't really spend much time on it. Anyone can go search the California corporations site. 

Could be a Delaware entity (most common jurisdiction), so not sure any legal filings would be in a California system

[hitmanhart408]

16 minutes ago, nycgunner said:

Could be a Delaware entity (most common jurisdiction), so not sure any legal filings would be in a California system

 

Could be. But knowing that they have always filed in CA I find that unlikely. You can still search DE though. I'm not that interested in finding the answer but I know a few people here probably are. 

[Blackstar]

57 minutes ago, hitmanhart408 said:

I spent about 5 minutes searching this last night. I didn't find any "new" corporations or LLC. The original GNR, Inc is still dissolved while Axl renewed Black Frog Entities and Black Frog Music about two months ago. Again, I didn't really spend much time on it. Anyone can go search the California corporations site. 

Black Frog Entities was likely the entity through which Axl did NuGnR business. Axl founded three new LLC's in 2016-17 under the name Gundam.

10 hours ago, Gnrcane said:

They can and 100% must be shareholders and employees at the same time.  It is part of the tax code.  Since they are performing in concert, they must be paid "wages" for that out of the business at some reasonable rate.  If they just paid everybody else and split the profit, they'd be evading social security and medicare taxes.  In order to avoid trouble with the IRS, the three of them must take a salary for performances that is at least somewhat more than the other musicians.  If they ever record an album, the same would apply for the time spent in the studio.

Thanks for the clarification. I'm not familiar with the US tax code, obviously.

So shareholders have to "employ" and pay themselves a salary in order to comply with the tax laws - in the case of the band, all three partners. 

But as I understand, this is irrelevant to the question in the OP, which was whether Slash and Duff are Axl's employees.

 

[default_]

5 hours ago, BadApples87 said:

He is set for life even if he never shows up again.

Not quite actually, Ive heard an article where some musician (I believe it was someone from the Alman Brothers, dont really remember) where he said he got a $1500 royalties check from one of his most popular songs, I believe it was streaming related and the song has over 50mi streams. So I dont think these guys are making much. 

[lame ass security]

8 minutes ago, default_ said:

Not quite actually, Ive heard an article where some musician (I believe it was someone from the Alman Brothers, dont really remember) where he said he got a $1500 royalties check from one of his most popular songs, I believe it was streaming related and the song has over 50mi streams. So I dont think these guys are making much. 

Very true.  There was a time(pun intended), that if you wrote a hit song you would be set for life.

[default_]

Here it is, Peter Frampton:

https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/peter-frampton-for-55-million-streams-of-baby-i-love-your-way-i-got-1-700.768307/

I believe these guys have made real money at some point but I seriously doubt they are making much at this point.

[MaskingApathy]

3 hours ago, Blackstar said:

Black Frog Entities was likely the entity through which Axl did NuGnR business. Axl founded three new LLC's in 2016-17 under the name Gundam.

I thought Black Frog was what he did his merchandising through. I've got a GnR bandana and wallet that say Black Frog on them.

[Blackstar]

3 minutes ago, MaskingApathy said:

I thought Black Frog was what he did his merchandising through. I've got a GnR bandana and wallet that say Black Frog on them.

It probably included merchandising as well as other business, similar to Slash's LLC. He had another Black Frog for touring (which is inactive now), and there's also Black Frog Music, his publishing company (which now seems to be a subsidiary of Universal).

[Draguns]

18 hours ago, Len Cnut said:

When the fuck did fans of music become so fuckin' interested in this shit?   Oh right, yeah, when bands don't make music..

The people who grew up listening to GNR are in their 40s or on their  mid 30s. It's part of being an adult to be interested in these things now compared to listening to music ands just being interested in  only art when you are a teen or early 20s. Grow up. You'll learn a lot from it.