Izzy's involvement in writing new music.

[Rovim]

1 minute ago, EvanG said:

Really? That's not the impression I have. Some people here act like he's ''the golden boy'', ''the prodical son'', and that's a bit too much. I love Izzy... I think he was very important, like they all were, and a new record without him will obviously not be the same.

Maybe underrated by the Slash or nu-GnR fans. Sure.

Yeah... some people. But how many? most do not consider him crucial. At least that's the impression I'm getting. They do seem to think a new record will not be the same without Izzy but if Slash wasn't there... well, we know how that will turn out don't we?

Izzy is underrated by his own bandmates, that's for sure. If they thought and by "they" I mean Axl that Izzy was essential in the studio they would have included him. What happened was that before the reunion Duff said after working with Izzy that it was so great working with him and that he wants to work with him forever and then... the Izzyless reunion happened.

They obviously don't think they need him for touring and maybe they don't and they probably don't think they really need him in the studio, at least not enough to share the loot with him, not that I don't get where they're coming from but it does seem like Axl thinks having Slash and Duff back in the band is enough to create the best Guns record possible if you choose to believe him when he says the art comes first.

[Free Bird]

11 minutes ago, Rovim said:

On here most people seem to think there isn't going to be much of a difference in the studio if Izzy is not a part of it if a new Guns album will ever come out. I personally think Izzy is just as important as Slash. How is he a little bit overrated? how many fans in this forum would say "it's not a Guns album cause Izzy wasn't a part of it?" not many is my guess. Very small group.

If Slash was a part of Chinese Democracy and Izzy wasn't I'd bet most fans here would have accepted it as a true Guns record even if it was just Axl and Slash without Izzy.

 

With all due respect but I don't think anybody thinks that way.

[Rovim]

5 minutes ago, Free Bird said:

With all due respect but I don't think anybody thinks that way.

With all due respect I've read posts that clearly show people do not see what's the big fuss about Izzy not being in the band in connection to a new album. They are content with 3 out of 5. Axl, Slash, and Duff. They say that was the UYI ratio and it's basically fine. It's real Guns N' Roses without Izzy. (but not without Slash)

Edited June 16, 2019 by Rovim

[EvanG]

Just now, Rovim said:

Yeah... some people. But how many? most do not consider him crucial. At least that's the impression I'm getting. They do seem to think a new record will not be the same without Izzy but if Slash wasn't there... well, we know how that will turn out don't we?

Izzy is underrated by his own bandmates, that's for sure. If they thought and by "they" I mean Axl that Izzy was essential in the studio they would have included him. What happened was that before the reunion Duff said after working with Izzy that it was so great working with him and that he wants to work with him forever and then... the Izzyless reunion happened.

They obviously don't think they need him for touring and maybe they don't and they probably don't think they really need him in the studio, at least not enough to share the loot with him, not that I don't get where they're coming from but it does seem like Axl thinks having Slash and Duff back in the band is enough to create the best Guns record possible if you choose to believe him when he says the art comes first.

Well, I don't know... I don't know everyone on here, but it's hard not to notice all the ''Izzy fanboys'' on here. For a lot of people, me included, it was still GnR when Steven left... it also still sounded like GnR when Izzy left. It would probably still sound like GnR if Duff isn't there. I'm not saying they didn't contribute anything to the sound, they very much did, but Axl's voice and Slash's signature guitar sound are the two most recognizable elements to the GnR sound, you have to admit that. 

But they're not idiots, they know that with Izzy the songs could only get better, but they also know that having Izzy in the band would never work out. Both Slash and Duff explained this perfectly in their book when Izzy bailed when the Velvet Revolver project became more serious. He just doesn't want to be in a band anymore and having to rely on other people. If they could get him to contribute songs I'm sure they would go for it immediately, but apparently it's not that easy.

[Free Bird]

Maybe somebody overreacts because many people act like an Izzyless GNR record will be utterly shit.

But most say Axl, Duff and Slash are capable on there own to create a good GNR album. Not as good as with Izzy but tolerable. Nothing more nothing less

[Rovim]

1 minute ago, EvanG said:

Well, I don't know... I don't know everyone on here, but it's hard not to notice all the ''Izzy fanboys'' on here. For a lot of people, me included, it was still GnR when Steven left... it also still sounded like GnR when Izzy left. It would probably still sound like GnR if Duff isn't there. I'm not saying they didn't contribute anything to the sound, they very much did, but Axl's voice and Slash's signature guitar sound are the two most recognizable elements to the GnR sound, you have to admit that. 

But they're not idiots, they know that with Izzy the songs could only get better, but they also know that having Izzy in the band would never work out. Both Slash and Duff explained this perfectly in their book when Izzy bailed when the Velvet Revolver project became more serious. He just doesn't want to be in a band anymore and having to rely on other people. If they could get him to contribute songs I'm sure they would go for it immediately, but apparently it's not that easy.

To be fair, Izzy wanted to be a part of it and we don't know in what capacity. Izzy could have done some shows with them and also contributed ideas and tunes for them to work in the studio. Izzy worked with Duff in the studio before the reunion and he worked with  Matt during the reunion. There are not as many Izzy fanboys as you might believe there are on here imo. There are way more Axl/Slash fans here. Way more.

Also... Steven and Duff are a big part of the Gn'R sound, even if Axl and Slash are the biggest part of it, sound wise. After Izzy and Steven left it still sounded like Gn'R, but right after the tour it fell apart and that line up fell apart as well and no Guns album was released before Chinese came out.

[EvanG]

Just now, Rovim said:

To be fair, Izzy wanted to be a part of it and we don't know in what capacity. Izzy could have done some shows with them and also contributed ideas and tunes for them to work in the studio. Izzy worked with Duff in the studio before the reunion and he worked with  Matt during the reunion. There are not as many Izzy fanboys as you might believe there are on here imo. There are way more Axl/Slash fans here. Way more.

Also... Steven and Duff are a big part of the Gn'R sound, even if Axl and Slash are the biggest part of it, sound wise. After Izzy and Steven left it still sounded like Gn'R, but right after the tour it fell apart and that line up fell apart as well and no Guns album was released before Chinese came out.

Again, I don't know, I do know Slash has a lot of fans, but Axl gets shit on by most people here. Whether that is fair or not is a different discussion.

We really don't know enough about what happened behind the scenes. I can imagine that Izzy would have been up for playing a few shows, like the original plan was, but going on tour for two years after not having toured for over twenty years... I can't see that happening. Sure, he could still be part of the band as a songwriter, and maybe that is the case? We don't know anything about this.

I'm not taking anything away from Steven, Duff or Izzy sound wise. Steven gave AFD its groove, we all know that, the combination of Izzy and Slash was great on AFD, UYI not so much. And Duff's bass is pretty solid and I think he's more important than most people realize, but at the end of the day Slash and Axl are the most recognizable and without them you can't create that GnR sound, that is all I'm saying.

[DieselDaisy]

They all made their contributions. I think Slash and Rose could do something decent on their own but left to their own devices it'll be more a heavy metal thing. Izzy brought a little Ramones/Johnny Thunders feel to proceedings.  Remove Izzy and Guns look a bit gormless to be honest, like another acne band. 

[Ant]

1 hour ago, DieselDaisy said:

Izzy brought a little Ramones/Johnny Thunders feel to proceedings.  Remove Izzy and Guns look a bit gormless to be honest, like another acne band. 

That’s what I’m sayin. Izzy’s rhythm and musical foundation makes the whole enterprise more distinguished.

Whatever value the “gormless” UYI metally Axl/Slash direction has requires youth to pull off... it just does. 

Edited June 16, 2019 by Ant

[Sydney Fan]

1 hour ago, EvanG said:

Again, I don't know, I do know Slash has a lot of fans, but Axl gets shit on by most people here. Whether that is fair or not is a different discussion.

We really don't know enough about what happened behind the scenes. I can imagine that Izzy would have been up for playing a few shows, like the original plan was, but going on tour for two years after not having toured for over twenty years... I can't see that happening. Sure, he could still be part of the band as a songwriter, and maybe that is the case? We don't know anything about this.

I'm not taking anything away from Steven, Duff or Izzy sound wise. Steven gave AFD its groove, we all know that, the combination of Izzy and Slash was great on AFD, UYI not so much. And Duff's bass is pretty solid and I think he's more important than most people realize, but at the end of the day Slash and Axl are the most recognizable and without them you can't create that GnR sound, that is all I'm saying.

UYI not so much.

His strengths was his songwriting and help structure coma. Im sure there are alot of things during those sessions we dont know about.He looks to cool in the band photo in the illusions booklet.

im starting to think that those who shit on the guy are CD fanboys. Im happy to shit on axl for a variety of reasons. Mainly not taking opportunities of releasing CD early and capitalising on the bands lineup from say 2000 to 06.

Edited June 16, 2019 by Sydney Fan

[EvanG]

2 hours ago, Sydney Fan said:

His strengths was his songwriting and help structure coma.

I didn't know he helped structure Coma, to me that's a real Slash and Axl song. I find his songwriting on UYI mediocre. DTJ, Bad Obsession, You Ain't The First... not exactly the best material. Although I do like RNDTH, Pretty Tied Up and especially 14 Years.

[MaskingApathy]

On 6/16/2019 at 8:03 AM, Rovim said:

What happened was that before the reunion Duff said after working with Izzy that it was so great working with him and that he wants to work with him forever and then... the Izzyless reunion happened.

That's the part that confuses me, if Duff actually meant it or if he's changed his mind now. 

 

19 hours ago, EvanG said:

I didn't know he helped structure Coma, to me that's a real Slash and Axl song. I find his songwriting on UYI mediocre. DTJ, Bad Obsession, You Ain't The First... not exactly the best material. Although I do like RNDTH, Pretty Tied Up and especially 14 Years.

Don't forget Dust N Bones.

[EvanG]

8 minutes ago, MaskingApathy said:

Don't forget Dust N Bones.

Yeah, also mediocre at best and Axl's annoying background vocals don't help.

Edited June 17, 2019 by EvanG

[Rovim]

2 minutes ago, MaskingApathy said:

That's the part that confuses me, if Duff actually meant it or if he's changed his mind now.

This is just a guess, but I think Duff actually meant it until the reunion happened and they couldn't figure a deal out with Izzy so Duff folded aka did nothing. He sure as shit wasn't going to risk the chance of being back in Guns for Izzy by pissing Axl off. Siding with Izzy instead of Axl. Talk is cheap so he made his choice, he knew Izzy will probably not talk to him or work with him again for at least a few years.

[MaskingApathy]

Just now, Rovim said:

This is just a guess, but I think Duff actually meant it until the reunion happened and they couldn't figure a deal out with Izzy so Duff folded aka did nothing. He sure as shit wasn't going to risk the chance of being back in Guns for Izzy by pissing Axl off. Siding with Izzy instead of Axl. Talk is cheap so he made his choice, he knew Izzy will probably not talk to him or work with him again for at least a few years.

He wouldn't need to work with Izzy again after cashing out on the reunion. Although it sounds like it was a similar situation with Matt as well.

[Rovim]

5 minutes ago, MaskingApathy said:

He wouldn't need to work with Izzy again after cashing out on the reunion. Although it sounds like it was a similar situation with Matt as well.

Duff was already rich before the reunion but yeah money is a wonderful thing, I personally think you can never have enough but it seems to me like he enjoyed working with Izzy, writing songs again with him. Matt said he talked shit about Axl in the past so that was why he couldn't join in the fun. At least that's why he thinks he isn't a part of it.

 

Edited June 17, 2019 by Rovim

[bikka]

2 hours ago, MaskingApathy said:

That's the part that confuses me, if Duff actually meant it or if he's changed his mind now. 

 

 

I think Duff always bends the way the wind blows... For me it was pretty clear when early after NITL first leg Duff started downplaying Izzy's contributions. It just sounded really weird, after his working with him just before the reunion. And of course after writting in his own book how important Izzy's role was. He was asked whether Izzy was the "unsung hero" of GNR, which he is - no matter if you agree on how big his contributions were to AFD, he's definitely the one guy who is least known for contributing by the general public. Even Steven gets more credit. To which Duff replied that it's not the case, if anything they were all "unsung". Really? Axl and Slash were not appreciated / recognized, etc? That was such a blatant stretching of the truth that it was instantly clear he's shifted gears and now is going backwards. Every other time after that when he gets asked about Izzy, it's the same. The guy who called Duff spineless was absolutely right!

[Free Bird]

22 hours ago, EvanG said:

I didn't know he helped structure Coma, to me that's a real Slash and Axl song. I find his songwriting on UYI mediocre. DTJ, Bad Obsession, You Ain't The First... not exactly the best material. Although I do like RNDTH, Pretty Tied Up and especially 14 Years.

I know it's all personal taste but I think 14 Years, Dust N Bones and Double Talking Jive are among the best songs on the Illusions. 

Those songs would be on my personal "Best Of Illusions CD" (Of course not in this order)

1. Civil War

2. Don't Cry (original)

3. November Rain

4. Estranged

5. Coma

6. Locomotive

7. Knocking On Heavens Door

8. Back Off Bitch

9. Don't Damn Me

10. 14 Years

11. Dust N Bones

12. Double Talking Jive

13. You Could Be Mine

14. The Garden

Edited June 17, 2019 by Free Bird

[EvanG]

38 minutes ago, Free Bird said:

I know it's all personal taste but I think 14 Years, Dust N Bones and Double Talking Jive are among the best songs on the Illusions. 

Those songs would be on my personal "Best Of Illusions CD" (Of course not in this order)

1. Civil War

2. Don't Cry (original)

3. November Rain

4. Estranged

5. Coma

6. Locomotive

7. Knocking On Heavens Door

8. Back Off Bitch

9. Don't Damn Me

10. 14 Years

11. Dust N Bones

12. Double Talking Jive

13. You Could Be Mine

14. The Garden

I made a list once, if I was restricted to 14 songs, it would probably be like this, although it can change every day:

1) Right Next Door To Hell

2) November Rain

3) Don't Damn Me

4) Dead Horse

5) Coma

6) Civil War

7) 14 Years

8) Yesterdays

9) Breakdown

10) Pretty Tied Up

11) Estranged

12) You Could Be Mine

13) The Garden

14) Locomotive

 

So... a lot of Axl songs. Don't Cry should be up there too, but it's a bit overplayed...

[MaskingApathy]

I love DTJ, especially the live version.

[Free Bird]

18 minutes ago, EvanG said:

I made a list once, if I was restricted to 14 songs, it would probably be like this, although it can change every day:

1) Right Next Door To Hell

2) November Rain

3) Don't Damn Me

4) Dead Horse

5) Coma

6) Civil War

7) 14 Years

8) Yesterdays

9) Breakdown

10) Pretty Tied Up

11) Estranged

12) You Could Be Mine

13) The Garden

14) Locomotive

 

So... a lot of Axl songs. Don't Cry should be up there too, but it's a bit overplayed...

It's a good list. I like it. I like mine more logically but it's still a good list 😀

[Thierry-Henry]

On 16/06/2019 at 5:05 PM, Free Bird said:

With all due respect but I don't think anybody thinks that way.

Yes I don't see how anybody can think that way.

For me GNR are what we call the combination of Axl, Slash, Izzy, Duff and Steven. Now maybe you can substitute Steven for Matt or Frank. But anything short of this combination is not GNR. In other words, there is no thing called GNR that exists independently of it five member. GNR are the point at which those five members intersect and interact. To conceive of it any other way seems to be a way of using your illusion.

[Rovim]

5 hours ago, Thierry-Henry said:

Yes I don't see how anybody can think that way.

For me GNR are what we call the combination of Axl, Slash, Izzy, Duff and Steven. Now maybe you can substitute Steven for Matt or Frank. But anything short of this combination is not GNR. In other words, there is no thing called GNR that exists independently of it five member. GNR are the point at which those five members intersect and interact. To conceive of it any other way seems to be a way of using your illusion.

It's like a classic dish. You replace one ingredient and it becomes something else. Like Izzy said, once Steven was out, nothing worked or something like that. All 5 members are important but was Civil War the only Guns tune on UYI that sounded like real Guns? not to me. It was still Gn'R to me but different. The recipe had changed.

Even without really big chunks of elements from Appetite that I loved like the guitar interplay between Slash and Izzy it still sounded like Gn'R.

Edit: and now that 2 classic members are out, in some way it's still Gn'R cause it contains a lot of the elements that made the band sound the way they sound, just not the same.

Kinda like Metallica without Cliff, Van Halen without DLR, And AC/DC without Bon Scott.

Edited June 18, 2019 by Rovim

[Route66]

Izzy iz GNR

[Chester 524]

one quick note-  civil war isnt the last song featuring the AFD 5.  Izzy doesnt play on it.  for those who own the physical album check the booklet.  Slash plays all 3 guitar parts.  Izzy isnt listed at all. Dont bother with wiki as it is wrong. 

I had no idea he didnt play on that song!

I would have figured he didnt play on Coma since he couldn't figure out how to play it live.