Raz Cue - An Open Letter To Duff McKagan

[Georgina Arriaga]

51 minutes ago, Little Michelle said:

https://www.razcue.com/single-post/2019/07/02/I-was-wrong

I will post the interviews as well. He says it is about a girl who was 15 and killed in San Diego in 2011, then he says it's a fictionalized story, then he says that it's a workplace scenario. I will look up those full interviews now. 

Just for accuracy, Duff talks there about 2 songs, one with his solo band Loaded, named Follow me to Hell, made in 2011, about, according to him, the real story of a 15 year old lady, raped and killed in San Diego in 2010- 2011.

The other song, Last september is a fictionalized story of a woman/girl, in a workplace, the man at the end got busted and the lady had some sort of closure.

There are 2 differents songs, and in each interview Duff says the exact same thing.

Edited July 4, 2019 by Georgina Arriaga

[Ant]

Thanks for sharing your story, Michelle. Really sorry to hear about that experience — I hope you’re doing well.

Edited July 5, 2019 by Ant

[The Holographic Universe]

1 hour ago, Ant said:

Thanks for sharing your story, Michelle. Really sorry to hear about that experience — I hope you’re doing well.

Yeah, let’s hope all is well 35 years later. 

[Blackstar]

https://www.razcue.com/single-post/2019/07/02/I-was-wrong

^^^

I don't find Raz's revision, and the explanation of how the story ended up originally in his book as it was, very convincing. I guess it's not beyond the realms of possibility that this was the only story that he had happened to get wrong and hadn't originally researched properly, as he says, but it looks like too much of a coincidence. In general, the revision seems to me as if he tries to modify the story in accordance to the questions and points made after his open letter to Duff, and, at the same time, to balance between two versions so that neither of them loses credibility. This is just my take, anyway (and I would think that someone would make sure to get the story right publicly first and then go on to write a politically charged open letter - at least that's what I think I would do if I ever found myself in this position). *

But still, the story that he now says he knew from hearsay (although in the original version he implied that he was there), from his brother Joe/JoJo who seems to have been there, is closer to what Axl, Vicky Hamilton and Slash (via Vicky) had said at the time (and also to what Slash wrote in his book later):

Raz Cue: The night that happened, I only heard reports from my brother, who was GNR’s stage manager and piss boy. He came in the house and straight off told me, “Axl’s such an idiot, he banged that chick Michelle, then she wouldn’t leave.” So he tossed her out naked and threw her clothes at her and locked the door. I heard this CYA story the night it happened because my brother lived at my house.

Moreover, Raz confirms in the revision that Dizzy was falsely arrested instead of Axl, as he has written in his book (only now clarifies that it was for Michelle's case and not for the "Dio boots" girl's case, which was insignificant), although he now says he wasn't there at the time of the arrest and avoids repeating the specific circumstances under which it took place. And if by not becoming specific he implies that the cops might have picked Dizzy randomly or that he didn't know what led them to arrest him, one has to wonder how the story that she identified Dizzy (wrongly) came about in his book (and so vividly described). It couldn't have been just fiction, the people who were there must have told him something - not to mention that Axl himself had told a similar story at the time (only he hadn't said who was identified in his place).

----------

Also, it's an undeniable fact that Slash was charged too, which isn't known only from his book (that he wrote at a time when he and Axl weren't friends and hadn't spoken to each other in years - he also said it in Marc Canter's book), but also from his interviews near the time of the events (where he said that he was there), from other members' (Izzy) interviews of the same time, and it's even in the liner notes of Appetite for Destruction. It's just not totally clear what the exact accusation of his involvement was.

-----------

As someone who wasn't there and doesn't know any of the parties involved, but has read everything that has been said and written about this story (and now @Little Michelle's side as she told it to us here and in her public social media posts), I have many more (legitimate, I believe) questions and points to make, but it's difficult to ask and address them without coming across as "interrogating," hence insensitive and disrespectful.

So, I'm just going to say, for the part of the story I have little doubts of (that Axl threw her naked on the street), that I'm very sorry that @Little Michelle had to experience it and at such a young age. It's unacceptable for any woman - let alone a 15-year-old girl, any human being to be treated and humiliated like this.

-------------

* Edit: Despite of all this, as a fan (of the nerdy kind), I still appreciate the 1985 band interview and all the insight Raz Cue gave us with his book.

Edited July 5, 2019 by Blackstar

[Live Like a Suicide]

5 hours ago, Blackstar said:

Also, it's an undeniable fact that Slash was charged too, which isn't known only from his book (that he wrote at a time when he and Axl weren't friends and hadn't spoken to each other in years - he also said it in Marc Canter's book), but also from his interviews near the time of the events (where he said that he was there), from other members' (Izzy) interviews of the same time, and it's even in the liner notes of Appetite for Destruction. It's just not totally clear what the exact accusation of his involvement was.

Yet Izzy was allegedly the only other GN'R member there, according to Michelle. Why was Slash charged then?

I remain sceptical. There are too many different stories, and the original charges were dropped. 

[Sydney Fan]

5 minutes ago, Live Like a Suicide said:

Yet Izzy was allegedly the only other GN'R member there, according to Michelle. Why was Slash charged then?

I remain sceptical. There are too many different stories, and the original charges were dropped. 

Wernt the cops hating so called rockers back in the 80s?. Nikki sixx talks about it in the heroin diaries how the cops hated the rockers because they looked like women. I doubt it wpuld be a case of mistaken identity arresting slash, maybe it could have been, or  more just the cops showing they are doing something about the complaint. Maybe slash was at the wrong place at the wrong time?.

[Live Like a Suicide]

5 minutes ago, Sydney Fan said:

Wernt the cops hating so called rockers back in the 80s?. Nikki sixx talks about it in the heroin diaries how the cops hated the rockers because they looked like women. I doubt it wpuld be a case of mistaken identity arresting slash, maybe it could have been, or  more just the cops showing they are doing something about the complaint. Maybe slash was at the wrong place at the wrong time?.

Who knows. I guess it's just another part of this story we will never know for sure. I doubt anything will be restarted on this case, especially now.

[Euchre]

The Slash quotes from earlier in the thread sound like a different incident. He talks about going up to the bungalow, which sounds more like the house most known from the black and white photo with the keg. The Hell House studio definitely wouldn't be described as a bungalow. Also, this would put the timing much closer to the release of Appetite and hence more likely to be referenced in the liner notes. So just like Raz initially merged 2 separate incidents, I suspect the same is being done here.

Way more importantly though, to Little Michelle it sounds so horrible what you have been through and I hope you have been able to find a way to work through it. As much as I like the music it was always well known the guys were low life's (as much as ppl like Duff try to re-invent the history now), but this is next level again.

As much as people say Axl is entitled to a presumption of innocence - which he is and he hasn't been jailed without trial over this, so he's got that. This story is consistent with plenty of other things that have been written / come out in court (ie Everly, Seymour) and Michelle goes into a lot of detail that fits with other things I've read, so it all certainly seems plausible. I think it is worthwhile people pausing and considering this because the temptation will be to jump to the defence of someone they have been a fan of for a long time - but the risk the other way, that is of attacking someone who has gone through something so horrific for speaking the truth is one you probably don't want to get wrong either. 

Back to the original point of the thread Duff already looked pretty stupid and hypocritical in the virtue signalling he has been doing of late, given how much is on record to the contrary and how illogical his argument is (ie if we say something in the past understand it is a joke and/or shit talking and we aren't like that, but if someone else says similar assume they are serious and it is how they are), but this definitely makes it worse. Duff is big on this 'how to be a man' business, well he should be taking a look to Raz as he certainly hasn't manned up the way Raz has - it would have taken a lot to take the time to look into things, admit you were wrong, admit you made mistakes in the book and publicly call out a famous friend.

 

[Takeshi]

1 hour ago, Euchre said:

The Slash quotes from earlier in the thread sound like a different incident. He talks about going up to the bungalow, which sounds more like the house most known from the black and white photo with the keg. The Hell House studio definitely wouldn't be described as a bungalow. Also, this would put the timing much closer to the release of Appetite and hence more likely to be referenced in the liner notes. So just like Raz initially merged 2 separate incidents, I suspect the same is being done here.

Way more importantly though, to Little Michelle it sounds so horrible what you have been through and I hope you have been able to find a way to work through it. As much as I like the music it was always well known the guys were low life's (as much as ppl like Duff try to re-invent the history now), but this is next level again.

As much as people say Axl is entitled to a presumption of innocence - which he is and he hasn't been jailed without trial over this, so he's got that. This story is consistent with plenty of other things that have been written / come out in court (ie Everly, Seymour) and Michelle goes into a lot of detail that fits with other things I've read, so it all certainly seems plausible. I think it is worthwhile people pausing and considering this because the temptation will be to jump to the defence of someone they have been a fan of for a long time - but the risk the other way, that is of attacking someone who has gone through something so horrific for speaking the truth is one you probably don't want to get wrong either. 

Back to the original point of the thread Duff already looked pretty stupid and hypocritical in the virtue signalling he has been doing of late, given how much is on record to the contrary and how illogical his argument is (ie if we say something in the past understand it is a joke and/or shit talking and we aren't like that, but if someone else says similar assume they are serious and it is how they are), but this definitely makes it worse. Duff is big on this 'how to be a man' business, well he should be taking a look to Raz as he certainly hasn't manned up the way Raz has - it would have taken a lot to take the time to look into things, admit you were wrong, admit you made mistakes in the book and publicly call out a famous friend.

 

 

In the court of public opinion, we've reached the point were Axl no longer deserves any presumption of innocence.  The number of allegations of violent and abusive behavior have to be taken seriously.  We can admire the music and still recognize that he's an awful human being.

Duff on the other hand would be better off limiting his interactions with the media.  He never comes off sounding particularly bright or insightful.  However, his history of drug abuse makes any kind of coherent sentence is an achievement.  Most of his interviews are full of virtue signalling and bland PR word salad.  Sid Vicious would be very disappointed.  

[MillionsOfSpiders]

12 hours ago, Little Michelle said:

https://www.razcue.com/single-post/2019/07/02/I-was-wrong

I will post the interviews as well. He says it is about a girl who was 15 and killed in San Diego in 2011, then he says it's a fictionalized story, then he says that it's a workplace scenario. I will look up those full interviews now. 

Ok. I think we’ve established that the song Duff is currently touring is not about a fictional 15 year old girl. 

You say in a public Facebook post that for years after whenever you saw Axl he would practically cry. Did you talk to him? 

Sorry if I seem to be prying or if this is inappropriate I guess it will be deleted. 

[AXL_N_DIZZY]

So many people make such a big deal about what Guns “could have been”. Frankly, at times, I find it downright miraculous they made it as far as they did...

[Popcorn crew]

You know what, I cant remember that I have never seen picture of Duff with a beard. 

[Ratam]

2 hours ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

Ok. I think we’ve established that the song Duff is currently touring is not about a fictional 15 year old girl. 

You say in a public Facebook post that for years after whenever you saw Axl he would practically cry. Did you talk to him? 

Sorry if I seem to be prying or if this is inappropriate I guess it will be deleted. 

she saw Axl still after it happened❓

[Sydney Fan]

3 hours ago, AXL_N_DIZZY said:

So many people make such a big deal about what Guns “could have been”. Frankly, at times, I find it downright miraculous they made it as far as they did...

And with all of them still alive.

2 hours ago, Popcorn crew said:

You know what, I cant remember that I have never seen picture of Duff with a beard. 

Nope hes never gone down that path. Not even 3 day growth or whatever. Couldnt imagine him wearing a hipster beard.

Edited July 5, 2019 by Sydney Fan

[allwaystired]

4 minutes ago, Sydney Fan said:

And with all of them still alive.

Nope hes never gone down that path. Not even 3 day growth or whatever. Couldnt imagine him wearing a hipster beard.

It always amazes, and confuses me, how people as wasted as GNR were at one point, manage to stay clean shaven. When you think about it, it's bonkers. You're totally out of it, day after day, yet you still manage to shave yourself often enough to not even get any stubble (i.e. every day to 2 or 3 days) and don't end up covered in cuts. Remarkable. 

 

 

[Sydney Fan]

4 minutes ago, allwaystired said:

It always amazes, and confuses me, how people as wasted as GNR were at one point, manage to stay clean shaven. When you think about it, it's bonkers. You're totally out of it, day after day, yet you still manage to shave yourself often enough to not even get any stubble (i.e. every day to 2 or 3 days) and don't end up covered in cuts. Remarkable. 

 

 

Well axl had a beard during illusions tour, and slash has been seen with a goatee (snakepit 2 era) and with a weeks growth. Everyone else is cvlean shaven which is stupid when they , (except izzy and probably gilby) were up 1 or 2 nights or in duff case probably a week, with no sleep  on cocaine and crack smoking binges.

Edited July 5, 2019 by Sydney Fan

[Blackstar]

6 hours ago, Euchre said:

The Slash quotes from earlier in the thread sound like a different incident. He talks about going up to the bungalow, which sounds more like the house most known from the black and white photo with the keg. The Hell House studio definitely wouldn't be described as a bungalow. Also, this would put the timing much closer to the release of Appetite and hence more likely to be referenced in the liner notes. So just like Raz initially merged 2 separate incidents, I suspect the same is being done here.

The reference to a "bungalow" in one of the Slash quotes sounds indeed strange, but I think that we would have known it from other sources if there was another incident with rape charges in a different period.

Slash has talked about the incident at the Gardner studios and him and Axl being charged for it a few times. Even in one of the recent interviews he mentioned that he and Axl hid in Vicky Hamilton's apartment.

Edited July 5, 2019 by Blackstar

[EvanG]

23 minutes ago, Sydney Fan said:

Nope hes never gone down that path. Not even 3 day growth or whatever. Couldnt imagine him wearing a hipster beard.

I don't know why I'm responding to this, but he once said he can't grow a beard. Some guys just don't have a lot of facial hair.

[Kwick1]

21 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

The reference to a "bungalow" in one of the Slash quotes sounds indeed strange, but I think that we would have known it from other sources if there was another incident with rape charges in a different period.

Slash has talked about the incident at the Gardner studios and him and Axl being charged for it a few times. Even in one of the recent interviews he mentioned that he and Axl hid in Vicky Hamilton's apartment.

I've tried to refrain from commenting. @Little Michellestory raises too many flags and leads me to believe its fabricated. Also her other social media accounts makes me highly doubt. 

[killuridols]

7 hours ago, Euchre said:

As much as people say Axl is entitled to a presumption of innocence - which he is and he hasn't been jailed without trial over this, so he's got that. This story is consistent with plenty of other things that have been written / come out in court (ie Everly, Seymour) and Michelle goes into a lot of detail that fits with other things I've read, so it all certainly seems plausible. I think it is worthwhile people pausing and considering this because the temptation will be to jump to the defence of someone they have been a fan of for a long time - but the risk the other way, that is of attacking someone who has gone through something so horrific for speaking the truth is one you probably don't want to get wrong either. 

You've got a good point there.

Gina Silder, Erin Everly, Michelle Young, Sheila Kennedy, Stephanie Seymour and who knows who else is out there still scared to speak up.

To me, all of this reduces to just one basic information: @Little Michelle being 15 years old.
All the rest is he said-she said stuff, completely irrelevant, if she was naked or fully clothed, if there was also Slash, Dizzy or Izzy..... the fact that a minor was having sex (consensual or not) with adult men is enough to call it abuse/rape, whatever the legal name is, it all boils down to that.

7 hours ago, Euchre said:

Back to the original point of the thread Duff already looked pretty stupid and hypocritical in the virtue signalling he has been doing of late, given how much is on record to the contrary and how illogical his argument is (ie if we say something in the past understand it is a joke and/or shit talking and we aren't like that, but if someone else says similar assume they are serious and it is how they are), but this definitely makes it worse.

That Yahoo! interview Little Michelle posted some pages ago  I had not watched, so I did last night and omg... it gave me so much cringe!

Duff is so so so hypocritical! He says stuff like they never hung around people who would say "grab 'em by the p****".... seriously, does he think we're gonna believe that? He said Mötle Crüe were in a "different league" when it comes to partying with women and stuff..... Excuse me?

Also that his daughters would never be abused because they've learned they shouldn't put themselves in the wrong place!

WTF..... it is almost as GUNS N' ROSES was a christian band or something.... or the best friends of Pope Francis

Grrrr.... I can't stand Duff anymore and I used to think he was so cool but now after hearing him being such a hypocritical fuck, I consider him a hyena and Axl ass-kisser to the max.

SPINELESS!

 

[lame ass security]

8 minutes ago, killuridols said:

You've got a good point there.

Gina Silder, Erin Everly, Michelle Young, Sheila Kennedy, Stephanie Seymour and who knows who else is out there still scared to speak up.

To me, all of this reduces to just one basic information: @Little Michelle being 15 years old.
All the rest is he said-she said stuff, completely irrelevant, if she was naked or fully clothed, if there was also Slash, Dizzy or Izzy..... the fact that a minor was having sex (consensual or not) with adult men is enough to call it abuse/rape, whatever the legal name is, it all boils down to that.

That Yahoo! interview Little Michelle posted some pages ago  I had not watched, so I did last night and omg... it gave me so much cringe!

Duff is so so so hypocritical! He says stuff like they never hung around people who would say "grab 'em by the p****".... seriously, does he think we're gonna believe that? He said Mötle Crüe were in a "different league" when it comes to partying with women and stuff..... Excuse me?

Also that his daughters would never be abused because they've learned they shouldn't put themselves in the wrong place!

WTF..... it is almost as GUNS N' ROSES was a christian band or something.... or the best friends of Pope Francis

Grrrr.... I can't stand Duff anymore and I used to think he was so cool but now after hearing him being such a hypocritical fuck, I consider him a hyena and Axl ass-kisser to the max.

SPINELESS!

 

Christian band indeed, I used to get them mixed up with Stryper all the time.

[Minche]

16 minutes ago, killuridols said:

You've got a good point there.

Gina Silder, Erin Everly, Michelle Young, Sheila Kennedy, Stephanie Seymour and who knows who else is out there still scared to speak up.

 

 

Both Seymour and Everly settled out of court, as far as I'm aware. 🤷‍♀️ What about Gina though? I've found one interview where she talked about Axl, and even though she mentioned his mood swings, she never implied he was physically abusive towards her. Same goes for Michelle Young. As for the Kennedy person, I've no idea who that is. If you know something I don't, please do share. 

[killuridols]

19 minutes ago, Minche said:

Both Seymour and Everly settled out of court, as far as I'm aware. 🤷‍♀️

So what?

That doesn't mean all the violence and abuse they were put through didn't happen.

20 minutes ago, Minche said:

What about Gina though? I've found one interview where she talked about Axl, and even though she mentioned his mood swings, she never implied he was physically abusive towards her.

When you describe your partner like this:

"That image of him sitting in the electric chair in the video ‘Welcome to the Jungle’, looking crazed, says it all. That’s what he looks like when he’s pissed off. And when you see that coming at you from across a room, coming near you, it’s frightening as hell. And I’m not very big, and that made it even worse. I won’t go much into that.”

It's not hard to figure out they were into an abusive relationship, no matter how much the victim tries to deny it.

But that's my opinion, of course.

32 minutes ago, Minche said:

Same goes for Michelle Young.

She says he was not violent towards her but she does not question or doubt the events with Erin and Stephanie.

36 minutes ago, Minche said:

As for the Kennedy person, I've no idea who that is.

Meet her.

 

[Minche]

31 minutes ago, killuridols said:

So what?

That doesn't mean all the violence and abuse they were put through didn't happen.

When you describe your partner like this:

"That image of him sitting in the electric chair in the video ‘Welcome to the Jungle’, looking crazed, says it all. That’s what he looks like when he’s pissed off. And when you see that coming at you from across a room, coming near you, it’s frightening as hell. And I’m not very big, and that made it even worse. I won’t go much into that.”

It's not hard to figure out they were into an abusive relationship, no matter how much the victim tries to deny it.

But that's my opinion, of course.

She says he was not violent towards her but she does not question or doubt the events with Erin and Stephanie.

Meet her.

 

No, it doesn't mean it didn't happen, but your initial point was they're scared to talk. They're not, it's simply the nature of those settlements- once you take the money and settle, you put everything else behind. 🤷‍♀️ 

As for Gina, that's a good point, but it's also up in the air still, and I can't make any conclusion from that, tbh. My guess is as good as yours. 

Now, the Kennedy girl.. I've read the whole article and tbh, it's a tad confusing. She doesn't appear to be broken or upset, it's almost as if she's saying 'hey, look what a crazy life I had' and is simply trying to sell a book. Maybe there's more info in the book itself, idk and I certainly have no interest in buying it. Also,  she thought Bob Guccione was gorgeous ? Ya, right.  🙄🙄Smfh. 🙈   (whatever credibility she had is gone with that line.. just kidding.. then again..🤭) 

[DieselDaisy]

1 hour ago, killuridols said:

To me, all of this reduces to just one basic information: @Little Michelle being 15 years old.

Further on this, the age of consent in California is 18 and has been since 1913.