Raz Cue - An Open Letter To Duff McKagan

[GnR Chris]

8 minutes ago, Little Michelle said:

It is absolutely hard and torturous! Just because I listen to Don't Cry and sob my fucking eyes out and comment on a friends post doesn't make me a contradiction! You have absolutely no idea what this is like and maybe you should leave it alone.  I don't know what I expected in here. I just wanted to know what you all were saying and help she'd light on this. That isn't working very well. It's okay! I realize that people like you will never understand. There are fans on here that are awesome! Also some that are cruel and hateful. 

 

Nah, it just appears suspicious to others because you stated how difficult it is hearing GNR songs on the radio or seeing Axl's face in the media. Yet a couple years ago, you willingly posted videos on social media and sought out GNR posts to comment on. And now suddenly there's a book/podcast you're promoting, right?

Edited July 6, 2019 by GnR Chris

[Kwick1]

4 minutes ago, Little Michelle said:

It is absolutely hard and torturous! Just because I listen to Don't Cry and sob my fucking eyes out and comment on a friends post doesn't make me a contradiction! You have absolutely no idea what this is like and maybe you should leave it alone.  I don't know what I expected in here. I just wanted to know what you all were saying and help she'd light on this. That isn't working very well. It's okay! I realize that people like you will never understand. There are fans on here that are awesome! Also some that are cruel and hateful. 

 

People like us will never understand? You have no idea who you're talking to. And yes, in criminal cases it's not up to the victim to prosecute. In a large number the victim ends up not wanting to testify particularly in rape cases but that did not stop the state from prosecuting if there was evidence. 

[Minche]

1 minute ago, Little Michelle said:

It is absolutely hard and torturous! Just because I listen to Don't Cry and sob my fucking eyes out and comment on a friends post doesn't make me a contradiction! You have absolutely no idea what this is like and maybe you should leave it alone.  I don't know what I expected in here. I just wanted to know what you all were saying and help she'd light on this. That isn't working very well. It's okay! I realize that people like you will never understand. There are fans on here that are awesome! Also some that are cruel and hateful. 

You are right. I can't understand all the contradiction regarding you or your post. It defies logic. 

However, you shouldn't start implying I'm cruel or hateful. I've done nothing hurtful to you. I'm merely having a conversation and questioning you on the simplest things. Your (angry) reaction answers a lot, though.

[Kwick1]

Just now, Minche said:

You are right. I can't understand all the contradiction regarding you or your post. It defies logic. 

However, you shouldn't start implying I'm cruel or hateful. I've done nothing hurtful to you. I'm merely having a conversation and questioning you on the simplest things. Your (angry) reaction answers a lot, though.

Amen! Out of reactions 

[Minche]

1 minute ago, Kwick1 said:

Amen! Out of reactions 

Lol same. Hate it. We need that reaction limit either increased or removed!  

[31illusions]

10 minutes ago, Little Michelle said:

  I don't know what I expected in here. I just wanted to know what you all were saying and help she'd light on this. That isn't working very well. It's okay! I realize that people like you will never understand. There are fans on here that are awesome! Also some that are cruel and hateful. 

 

Don't let it bother you. This is actually quite non confrontational for some people here. It's been way worse with others (this is the internet after all) You said your side and explained it very well. There is no need to explain every little detail to people who care nothing for you. Take comfort that your side is out there! You need only to respond to those whom you choose.

[RONIN]

3 hours ago, Oldest Goat said:

Right but literally no one has said that, ever, in any way. Not even implied it. So the hyperbole of your joke doesn't make any sense. 

There is zero evidence of this very serious and confusing accusation. Until there's at least some evidence I'm not going to even consider joining any mob mentality on the internet recklessly deciding that; 35years ago right as a young Axl's career was taking off he brutally gangraped a 15yrld girl as revenge for having a miscarriage.

I know that Axl was/is a mental cunt but I think anyone(total strangers on the internet no less) who is prepared to just blindly decide that based on nothing is deciding to be a bit mental themselves.

This kind of thing is a matter for therapists, lawyers and police - not MyWildSpeculationForum.com

I'm not taking a stand for or against. I simply take a shot at Rose when the opportunity presents itself. The hyperbole is intended to take the piss out of people questioning Michelle's story/credibility and saying it lacks plausibility while in the same breath ostensibly defending Rose, a known abuser of women. For an example of the right way to assess both sides in a respectful and neutral way, see Blackstar's recent posts.

3 hours ago, Minche said:

I'd just like to add that all of the alleged witnesses she mentioned were umm.. passed out. 🙄 Yet somehow, some find it far easier to believe that story, than to take ones presumption of innocence in consideration, at the very least. The whole #believethevictim (with no tangible evidence) thing is just a bit too much. Yet, ill be called insensitive or whatever,  for simply wanting a piece of evidence that would actually stick in court. 

Respectfully, so what if the alleged witnesses were passed out? It's not plausible that people hanging out in a place called "Hell House" would be drunk/high to the point of passing out? It was literally a den of hedonism - I'd be surprised if anyone remembered anything 35 years later given the amount of booze and drugs that flowed through there.  Is there a possibility that Axl is innocent? Sure. Is it likely given his track record? 

And what evidence would be sufficient 30+ years after the fact? A DNA sample on her clothing that was torn off? Izzy remembering Michelle's rape and calling out Axl and Duff publicly? Even if he does remember - is it likely that he would go on the public record about it? If Michelle is telling the truth, I suspect the people who know about this situation will most likely stay silent and avoid any unwanted scrutiny.

3 hours ago, The Holographic Universe said:

Your contributions to almost any discussion on this forum is strictly for bottom feeders. There are many on this Earth will state Axl music has greatly helped ease their pain. You? Doubtful you make much of an impact on this Earth. 

For sure, aside from Stephanie and Erin probably.

Love you too sugarplums. 

Edited July 6, 2019 by RONIN

[allwaystired]

3 minutes ago, 31illusions said:

Don't let it bother you. This is actually quite non confrontational for some people here. It's been way worse with others (this is the internet after all) You said your side and explained it very well. There is no need to explain every little detail to people who care nothing for you. Take comfort that your side is out there! You need only to respond to those whom you choose.

I don't see too much confontation - just people asking perfectly valid questions of someone who arrives at a forum alleging some very serious crimes. Presumably her reason for arriving here was to answer questions and put her point of view across? 

"You only need to respond to those whom you choose" - the Donald Trump method! Probably not a great idea, all considered! 

[Ant]

I don’t know why people would take a couple social media posts as some glaring contradiction.

If you love someone, love their friends, they dedicate a song to you, get you pregnant and assault you before you’re old enough to drive... I mean that’s a complicated relationship. It’s messy. If you’re convinced she’s trying to cash in that’s your prerogative but we all know Axl’s extensive mental health and therapy journey... I mean you need to work through your shit. 

How did Axl feel when his family tried to rewrite the history of his abuse? Check the rant videos on YouTube. 

(Edit: My reference to a song is Don’t Cry, which she apparently has a relationship to, not that it really matters to the broader point).

Edited July 6, 2019 by Ant

[Live Like a Suicide]

41 minutes ago, Little Michelle said:

I did clarify a bit ago. In the studio Izzy was passed out, Mary was passed out, there were two guys I didn't know and had never seen, and one friend of Duff's from Seattle  

I couldn't see very well due to being thrown into a room the size of a closet and being held down. Axl ass in my face made I thought difficult to see who was shoving there forI needs into me! Hope that helps! 

You say Izzy was the only other GN'R member there, and you don't know the people who assaulted you, other than Axl and a friend of Duff's. Can you please tell us why Slash was charged if he was not involved then?

Edited July 6, 2019 by Live Like a Suicide

[BlueJean Baby]

One more time....she is not the girl My Michelle was written about. They are two different people. 

[31illusions]

14 minutes ago, allwaystired said:

I don't see too much confontation - just people asking perfectly valid questions of someone who arrives at a forum alleging some very serious crimes. Presumably her reason for arriving here was to answer questions and put her point of view across? 

"You only need to respond to those whom you choose" - the Donald Trump method! Probably not a great idea, all considered! 

I don't think you understand English very well. I said this conversation was quite non confrontational, compared to others Ive seen here. Why should she be harassed and be accused of lying? I believe her. I wouldn't even respond to anyone being rude to me, why should she? So You need to check yourself, because you are a nobody.

[Kittiara]

9 minutes ago, Live Like a Suicide said:

You say Izzy was the only other GN'R member there, and you don't know the people who assaulted you, other than Axl and a friend of Duff's. Can you please tell us why Slash was charged if he was not involved then?

From what I understand from the second Raz Cue piece, that was another incident with another girl? The "Dio boots" one?

[allwaystired]

5 minutes ago, 31illusions said:

I don't think you understand English very well. I said this conversation was quite non confrontational, compared to others Ive seen here. Why should she be harassed and be accused of lying? I believe her. I wouldn't even respond to anyone being rude to me, why should she? So You need to check yourself, because you are a nobody.

Thanks for the insult. 

You're obviously quite the somebody. 

Good to see a Trump fan believing an online allegation of rape unquestionably though. I assume you apply that philosophy to the numerous allegations about the glorious leader himself........

Edited July 6, 2019 by allwaystired

[Minche]

31 minutes ago, RONIN said:

I'm not taking a stand for or against. I simply take a shot at Rose when the opportunity presents itself. The hyperbole is intended to take the piss out of people questioning Michelle's story/credibility and saying it lacks plausibility while in the same breath ostensibly defending Rose, a known abuser of women. For an example of the right way to assess both sides in a respectful and neutral way, see Blackstar's recent posts.

Respectfully, so what if the alleged witnesses were passed out? It's not plausible that people hanging out in a place called "Hell House" would be drunk/high to the point of passing out? It was literally a den of hedonism - I'd be surprised if anyone remembered anything 35 years later given the amount of booze and drugs that flowed through there.  Is there a possibility that Axl is innocent? Sure. Is it likely given his track record? 

And what evidence would be sufficient 30+ years after the fact? A DNA sample on her clothing that was torn off? Izzy remembering Michelle's rape and calling out Axl and Duff publicly? He can't even come to terms with being a former pimp/drug dealer. A lot of rapes happen without witnesses or physical evidence being left behind - sometimes only the scars inside remain.

 

First, don't coach me on what sexual abuse means and what it does to people. I know the subject very well. 

Secondly, I am not defending Axl Rose but a presumably innocent man (another subject I am very familiar with). 

You say he is a known abuser. Known how ? What court verdict do you have to confirm this?-None. The difference between you and myself is that you rely on what alleged victims say, (spoiler: a fkn lot of them do lie) , whereas I strictly rely on evidence and courts. And I never once said Rose is a saint, but I do seriously believe lots of things about him were blown out of proportion. So shoot me!

Last thing, I never said all the witnesses being genuinely passed out and unable hearing her SCREAMS wasnt an option.  It just a bit too convenient, in my humble fkn opinion. All the contradictions aren't helping her case either, again, in MY eyes. 

[Live Like a Suicide]

33 minutes ago, Kittiara said:

From what I understand from the second Raz Cue piece, that was another incident with another girl? The "Dio boots" one?

Then Axl would have been charged twice with rape during Guns N' Roses' early years, no? Once for this (Michelle claims charges were filed but didn't get anywhere because she never went to court) and once for another incident. Both were dropped. The problem? We only know of one incident where Axl was charged with rape, and that included Slash.

The simple fact is there are too many stories floating around that involve little evidence other than witness statements. These stories have also been subject to numerous alterations since the very beginning (even regarding the early statements of band members). It's no wonder why the original charges were dropped.

Edited July 6, 2019 by Live Like a Suicide

[Kittiara]

2 minutes ago, Live Like a Suicide said:

Then Axl would have been charged twice with rape during Guns N' Roses' early years, no? Once for this (Michelle claims charges were filed but didn't get anywhere because she never went to court) and once for another incident. Both were dropped. The problem? We only know of one incident where Axl was charged with rape, and that included Slash.

The simple fact is there are too many stories floating around that involve little evidence other than witness statements. These stories have also been subject to numerous alterations since the very beginning (even regarding the early statements of band members). It's no wonder why the original charges were dropped.

I will readily admit that I am a lot less clued up about the history of Guns N' Roses than most people on this forum, and I may be getting things confused. There's a lot in this thread that I was unaware of before and there are several incidents with women mentioned - like the bungalow one as well. So, I don't know what's what anymore.

What I do know is that I'm pretty shocked at some of the stuff I've read. Which probably sounds incredibly naive for a GN'R fan, but until I became a member here I was just one of those fans who just listened to the songs and attended the occasional concert. This forum has been an education, but obviously there's a lot I don't know still. And on occasions like this I really understand the saying that ignorance is bliss, because if even half this shit is true I don't know what kinda band I've been following, much as I love a lot of the music!

[Live Like a Suicide]

2 minutes ago, Kittiara said:

I will readily admit that I am a lot less clued up about the history of Guns N' Roses than most people on this forum, and I may be getting things confused. There's a lot in this thread that I was unaware of before and there are several incidents with women mentioned - like the bungalow one as well. So, I don't know what's what anymore.

What I do know is that I'm pretty shocked at some of the stuff I've read. Which probably sounds incredibly naive for a GN'R fan, but until I became a member here I was just one of those fans who just listened to the songs and attended the occasional concert. This forum has been an education, but obviously there's a lot I don't know still. And on occasions like this I really understand the saying that ignorance is bliss, because if even half this shit is true I don't know what kinda band I've been following, much as I love a lot of the music!

I agree, there are too many stories that it is hard to tell what's what. but with deduction, we should be able to assess some of them. The problem i have with this case is that Raz Cue indicated that Axl wasn't involved with the Dio Boots incident, yet he was still charged with rape during Guns' early years. Michelle also claims that Axl was charged with rape in her incident. Where does Slash fit in then? Either he and Axl were charged during the false Dio Boots case or they were charged in Michelle's case. Either way you cut it, we only know of one charge for each. That's an inconsistency. 

At the end of the day though, the charges were dropped, so we can safely assume there was little evidence to convict Axl or Slash of the alleged crimes.

[Blackstar]

52 minutes ago, Kittiara said:

From what I understand from the second Raz Cue piece, that was another incident with another girl? The "Dio boots" one?

According to Raz Cue's revision, the thing with the "Dio boots" girl was trivial and didn't lead to a charge. Furthermore, he says that girl was obsessed with Axl, so it would have nothing to do with Slash.

 

[Kittiara]

3 minutes ago, Live Like a Suicide said:

I agree, there are too many stories that it is hard to tell what's what. but with deduction, we should be able to assess some of them. The problem i have with this case is that Raz Cue indicated that Axl wasn't involved with the Dio Boots incident, yet he was still charged with rape during Guns' early years. Michelle also claims that Axl was charged with rape in her incident. Where does Slash fit in then? Either he and Axl were charged during the false Dio Boots case or they were charged in Michelle's case. Either way you cut it, we only know of one charge for each. That's an inconsistency. 

At the end of the day though, the charges were dropped, so we can safely assume there was little evidence to convict Axl or Slash of the alleged crimes.

Just scrolling through the thread now and @SoulMonster posted a quote from Slash about the bungalow incident where it does appear that he and Axl were charged over that one, but those charges were indeed dropped. Then there was the Dio Boots case, where the police was brought into it but it didn't really go anywhere, rightfully so from what I can make out. Could it be that in Michelle's case her mother contacted the police, but as Michelle decided to not press charges, no charges were indeed brought? That'd make the bungalow incident the one that people know about.

Though, in the same post by SoulMonster, Axl refers to an "old girlfriend trying to get back at us" which, if that refers to Michelle, would be problematic because regardless of anything else, her being 15 at the time, and him being an adult, and the age of consent being 18... But, obviously, we can't know who he was referring to.

[Kittiara]

2 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

According to Raz Cue's revision, the thing with the "Dio boots" girl was trivial and didn't lead to a charge. Furthermore, he says that girl was obsessed with Axl, so it would have nothing to do with Slash.

 

Aye true. Just saw that it was the bungalow incident that led to a charge involving both Axl and Slash.

[RONIN]

15 minutes ago, Minche said:

First, don't coach me on what sexual abuse means and what it does to people. I know the subject very well. 

Not my intention and sorry if it came off that way. I keep seeing "lack of evidence" bandied about here but many times there just isn't any in sexual assault/rape cases. I don't see that as a disqualifier for the victim necessarily.

Quote

Secondly, I am not defending Axl Rose but a presumably innocent man (another subject I am very familiar with). 

Fair enough.

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You say he is a known abuser. Known how ?

Common sense and from what people who have known him have said over the past few decades. He doesn't have a reputation for treating women very well. I didn't realize this was something open to interpretation.

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What court verdict do you have to confirm this?-None.

So only court verdicts count? You don't see the problem in assessing things through such a myopic lens?

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The difference between you and myself is that you rely on what alleged victims say, (spoiler: a fkn lot of them do lie) ,whereas I strictly rely on evidence and courts.

Perhaps, but the number of rape/sexual assault victims who are telling the truth far outweigh the liars if the available data is to be believed.

You seem to have much more faith in the justice system than I do.

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And I never once said Rose is a saint, but I do seriously believe lots of things about him were blown out of proportion. So shoot me!

 

As is your prerogative. 

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Last thing, I never said all the witnesses being genuinely passed out and unable hearing her SCREAMS wasnt an option.  It just a bit too convenient, in my humble fkn opinion. All the contradictions aren't helping her case either, again, in MY eyes. 

Okay. But whether she's telling the truth or not, it doesn't change the reality that Axl and the band were most likely degenerate shitbags who treated women like crap.

[Blackstar]

14 minutes ago, Kittiara said:

Just scrolling through the thread now and @SoulMonster posted a quote from Slash about the bungalow incident where it does appear that he and Axl were charged over that one, but those charges were indeed dropped. Then there was the Dio Boots case, where the police was brought into it but it didn't really go anywhere, rightfully so from what I can make out. Could it be that in Michelle's case her mother contacted the police, but as Michelle decided to not press charges, no charges were indeed brought? That'd make the bungalow incident the one that people know about.

Though, in the same post by SoulMonster, Axl refers to an "old girlfriend trying to get back at us" which, if that refers to Michelle, would be problematic because regardless of anything else, her being 15 at the time, and him being an adult, and the age of consent being 18... But, obviously, we can't know who he was referring to.

Michelle herself says that her mother pressed charges but she refused to go testify in court, so it seems there were charges that went up to a point in the legal process and then dropped.

I don't know if you have seen the quotes I posted on the first page of the thread. There are a couple more besides the ones @SoulMonster posted:

http://www.mygnrforum.com/topic/222459-raz-cue-an-open-letter-to-duff-mckagan/?do=findComment&comment=4699624

There was this one by Izzy, following what Slash said in the same interview (sorry if it's inappropriate, but that's what he said):

Slash: That was no big deal. What happened is Axl and me were with these two girls, and they got in a sexual situation and they decided to file rape charges. Me and Axl had to borrow suits one day to go down to the police station and turn ourselves in over this crap – and when it came down to the wire, they dropped the charges because it was all bogus. We didn’t fucking do anything to them [Spin, May 1988].

Izzy: It turned out that our drummer had fucked one of their mothers, so it was a complicated story [Spin, May 1988].

Kim Fowley, who had a brief involvement with the band at that time, would later remember this:

FOWLEY: This was on Tuesday, and we talked again on Thursday and the following Saturday. The last day, I was in the bathtub, and Izzy called imploring me to get out of the bathtub because he was having an emergency. I said: “Hey, I already told you I can’t work with you, but what’s the emergency?” It was about three of the guys in the band and probably a mother and a daughter, and there was a big argument of some kind at Sunset and Gardner, where the band lived at the time in this cramped space, and something about the police either coming in or watching the house, blah blah blah. The three Guns N’ Roses guys did not want to be interrogated, so they disappeared. [Metal Sludge, 2012]

Izzy would also say in an interview after he had left the band that the police were after Axl and Slash, so the band left the rehearsal space and ended up in Vicky Hamilton's apartment:

Izzy: The police were after Axl and Slash. We returned from the studio to a kind of house without neighbors. We lived in the hallway together with two or three other bands. The police had told us that they were going to beat the shit out of us when they got ahold of us. So, we went home, it didn’t have a door, and we told a friend of ours, Robert John, photographer, that had a big Cadillac, “Robert, you’re our roadie now” (laughs). We loaded the equipment in the car and we left that place in an hour. And Vicky Hamilton offered to help us [Popular 1, November 1992].

[Live Like a Suicide]

32 minutes ago, Kittiara said:

Could it be that in Michelle's case her mother contacted the police, but as Michelle decided to not press charges, no charges were indeed brought? That'd make the bungalow incident the one that people know about.

Though, in the same post by SoulMonster, Axl refers to an "old girlfriend trying to get back at us" which, if that refers to Michelle, would be problematic because regardless of anything else, her being 15 at the time, and him being an adult, and the age of consent being 18... But, obviously, we can't know who he was referring to.

Possible, but others have said the police could use discretion to charge Axl without the consent of the alleged victim (Michelle). For what it's worth, here is what Michelle wrote in her opening remarks:

Quote

 

Dizzy Reed had called my mom's boyfriend and Vince who had run The Shamrock Studios back in the day, showed up to rescue me. I swore him to secrecy for two weeks, I was afraid if he told my mom she would kill Axl with her bare hands. When the two weeks was up, he told her and I came home to an hysterical mother who had just called the cops to press charges. 

The band ( my family at the time) started calling to find out what was going on. When I told them what he had done to me, they freaked out. Slash was in tears, so was Steven . Duff came to the house at some point to beg my mom to drop the charges. 

I ended up refusing to talk to the detective again and refused to testify in court. I honestly didn't want my friends to be punished for what Axl had done. Meanwhile I'm heartbroken and  stained for life. I gave them the freedom to be something. 

 

It sounds like Michelle's mother was actively attempting to press charges. Indeed, if we are to believe Michelle, Duff tried persuading her to 'drop the charges'. Were they filed or not? Possible since Michelle mentioned court. Either way, if the police thought there was enough evidence to convict Axl, they likely would have filed charges regardless of Michelle's actions. There were other possible avenues to investigate the incident without her involvement... Dizzy Reed, Vince, Johnny X, etc. Either this was done, and nothing turned up, or none of it was investigated at all. How do we know? Because nothing came of the situation.

Edited July 6, 2019 by Live Like a Suicide

[Blackstar]

3 hours ago, Little Michelle said:

My mom didn't want me there, but she knew I was dating Axl. 

Okay, thanks. Do you have any pictures with Axl from that time?