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Raz Cue - An Open Letter To Duff McKagan

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33 minutes ago, Kittiara said:

From what I understand from the second Raz Cue piece, that was another incident with another girl? The "Dio boots" one?

Then Axl would have been charged twice with rape during Guns N' Roses' early years, no? Once for this (Michelle claims charges were filed but didn't get anywhere because she never went to court) and once for another incident. Both were dropped. The problem? We only know of one incident where Axl was charged with rape, and that included Slash.

The simple fact is there are too many stories floating around that involve little evidence other than witness statements. These stories have also been subject to numerous alterations since the very beginning (even regarding the early statements of band members). It's no wonder why the original charges were dropped.

Edited by Live Like a Suicide
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2 minutes ago, Live Like a Suicide said:

Then Axl would have been charged twice with rape during Guns N' Roses' early years, no? Once for this (Michelle claims charges were filed but didn't get anywhere because she never went to court) and once for another incident. Both were dropped. The problem? We only know of one incident where Axl was charged with rape, and that included Slash.

The simple fact is there are too many stories floating around that involve little evidence other than witness statements. These stories have also been subject to numerous alterations since the very beginning (even regarding the early statements of band members). It's no wonder why the original charges were dropped.

I will readily admit that I am a lot less clued up about the history of Guns N' Roses than most people on this forum, and I may be getting things confused. There's a lot in this thread that I was unaware of before and there are several incidents with women mentioned - like the bungalow one as well. So, I don't know what's what anymore.

What I do know is that I'm pretty shocked at some of the stuff I've read. Which probably sounds incredibly naive for a GN'R fan, but until I became a member here I was just one of those fans who just listened to the songs and attended the occasional concert. This forum has been an education, but obviously there's a lot I don't know still. And on occasions like this I really understand the saying that ignorance is bliss, because if even half this shit is true I don't know what kinda band I've been following, much as I love a lot of the music!

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2 minutes ago, Kittiara said:

I will readily admit that I am a lot less clued up about the history of Guns N' Roses than most people on this forum, and I may be getting things confused. There's a lot in this thread that I was unaware of before and there are several incidents with women mentioned - like the bungalow one as well. So, I don't know what's what anymore.

What I do know is that I'm pretty shocked at some of the stuff I've read. Which probably sounds incredibly naive for a GN'R fan, but until I became a member here I was just one of those fans who just listened to the songs and attended the occasional concert. This forum has been an education, but obviously there's a lot I don't know still. And on occasions like this I really understand the saying that ignorance is bliss, because if even half this shit is true I don't know what kinda band I've been following, much as I love a lot of the music!

I agree, there are too many stories that it is hard to tell what's what. but with deduction, we should be able to assess some of them. The problem i have with this case is that Raz Cue indicated that Axl wasn't involved with the Dio Boots incident, yet he was still charged with rape during Guns' early years. Michelle also claims that Axl was charged with rape in her incident. Where does Slash fit in then? Either he and Axl were charged during the false Dio Boots case or they were charged in Michelle's case. Either way you cut it, we only know of one charge for each. That's an inconsistency. 

At the end of the day though, the charges were dropped, so we can safely assume there was little evidence to convict Axl or Slash of the alleged crimes.

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52 minutes ago, Kittiara said:

From what I understand from the second Raz Cue piece, that was another incident with another girl? The "Dio boots" one?

According to Raz Cue's revision, the thing with the "Dio boots" girl was trivial and didn't lead to a charge. Furthermore, he says that girl was obsessed with Axl, so it would have nothing to do with Slash.

 

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3 minutes ago, Live Like a Suicide said:

I agree, there are too many stories that it is hard to tell what's what. but with deduction, we should be able to assess some of them. The problem i have with this case is that Raz Cue indicated that Axl wasn't involved with the Dio Boots incident, yet he was still charged with rape during Guns' early years. Michelle also claims that Axl was charged with rape in her incident. Where does Slash fit in then? Either he and Axl were charged during the false Dio Boots case or they were charged in Michelle's case. Either way you cut it, we only know of one charge for each. That's an inconsistency. 

At the end of the day though, the charges were dropped, so we can safely assume there was little evidence to convict Axl or Slash of the alleged crimes.

Just scrolling through the thread now and @SoulMonster posted a quote from Slash about the bungalow incident where it does appear that he and Axl were charged over that one, but those charges were indeed dropped. Then there was the Dio Boots case, where the police was brought into it but it didn't really go anywhere, rightfully so from what I can make out. Could it be that in Michelle's case her mother contacted the police, but as Michelle decided to not press charges, no charges were indeed brought? That'd make the bungalow incident the one that people know about.

Though, in the same post by SoulMonster, Axl refers to an "old girlfriend trying to get back at us" which, if that refers to Michelle, would be problematic because regardless of anything else, her being 15 at the time, and him being an adult, and the age of consent being 18... But, obviously, we can't know who he was referring to.

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2 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

According to Raz Cue's revision, the thing with the "Dio boots" girl was trivial and didn't lead to a charge. Furthermore, he says that girl was obsessed with Axl, so it would have nothing to do with Slash.

 

Aye true. Just saw that it was the bungalow incident that led to a charge involving both Axl and Slash.

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15 minutes ago, Minche said:

First, don't coach me on what sexual abuse means and what it does to people. I know the subject very well. 

Not my intention and sorry if it came off that way. I keep seeing "lack of evidence" bandied about here but many times there just isn't any in sexual assault/rape cases. I don't see that as a disqualifier for the victim necessarily.

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Secondly, I am not defending Axl Rose but a presumably innocent man (another subject I am very familiar with). 

Fair enough.

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You say he is a known abuser. Known how ?

Common sense and from what people who have known him have said over the past few decades. He doesn't have a reputation for treating women very well. I didn't realize this was something open to interpretation.

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What court verdict do you have to confirm this?-None.

So only court verdicts count? You don't see the problem in assessing things through such a myopic lens?

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The difference between you and myself is that you rely on what alleged victims say, (spoiler: a fkn lot of them do lie) ,whereas I strictly rely on evidence and courts.

Perhaps, but the number of rape/sexual assault victims who are telling the truth far outweigh the liars if the available data is to be believed.

You seem to have much more faith in the justice system than I do.

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And I never once said Rose is a saint, but I do seriously believe lots of things about him were blown out of proportion. So shoot me!

 

As is your prerogative. 

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Last thing, I never said all the witnesses being genuinely passed out and unable hearing her SCREAMS wasnt an option.  It just a bit too convenient, in my humble fkn opinion. All the contradictions aren't helping her case either, again, in MY eyes. 

Okay. But whether she's telling the truth or not, it doesn't change the reality that Axl and the band were most likely degenerate shitbags who treated women like crap.

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14 minutes ago, Kittiara said:

Just scrolling through the thread now and @SoulMonster posted a quote from Slash about the bungalow incident where it does appear that he and Axl were charged over that one, but those charges were indeed dropped. Then there was the Dio Boots case, where the police was brought into it but it didn't really go anywhere, rightfully so from what I can make out. Could it be that in Michelle's case her mother contacted the police, but as Michelle decided to not press charges, no charges were indeed brought? That'd make the bungalow incident the one that people know about.

Though, in the same post by SoulMonster, Axl refers to an "old girlfriend trying to get back at us" which, if that refers to Michelle, would be problematic because regardless of anything else, her being 15 at the time, and him being an adult, and the age of consent being 18... But, obviously, we can't know who he was referring to.

Michelle herself says that her mother pressed charges but she refused to go testify in court, so it seems there were charges that went up to a point in the legal process and then dropped.

I don't know if you have seen the quotes I posted on the first page of the thread. There are a couple more besides the ones @SoulMonster posted:

http://www.mygnrforum.com/topic/222459-raz-cue-an-open-letter-to-duff-mckagan/?do=findComment&comment=4699624

There was this one by Izzy, following what Slash said in the same interview (sorry if it's inappropriate, but that's what he said):

Slash: That was no big deal. What happened is Axl and me were with these two girls, and they got in a sexual situation and they decided to file rape charges. Me and Axl had to borrow suits one day to go down to the police station and turn ourselves in over this crap – and when it came down to the wire, they dropped the charges because it was all bogus. We didn’t fucking do anything to them [Spin, May 1988].

Izzy: It turned out that our drummer had fucked one of their mothers, so it was a complicated story [Spin, May 1988].

Kim Fowley, who had a brief involvement with the band at that time, would later remember this:

FOWLEY: This was on Tuesday, and we talked again on Thursday and the following Saturday. The last day, I was in the bathtub, and Izzy called imploring me to get out of the bathtub because he was having an emergency. I said: “Hey, I already told you I can’t work with you, but what’s the emergency?” It was about three of the guys in the band and probably a mother and a daughter, and there was a big argument of some kind at Sunset and Gardner, where the band lived at the time in this cramped space, and something about the police either coming in or watching the house, blah blah blah. The three Guns N’ Roses guys did not want to be interrogated, so they disappeared. [Metal Sludge, 2012]

Izzy would also say in an interview after he had left the band that the police were after Axl and Slash, so the band left the rehearsal space and ended up in Vicky Hamilton's apartment:

Izzy: The police were after Axl and Slash. We returned from the studio to a kind of house without neighbors. We lived in the hallway together with two or three other bands. The police had told us that they were going to beat the shit out of us when they got ahold of us. So, we went home, it didn’t have a door, and we told a friend of ours, Robert John, photographer, that had a big Cadillac, “Robert, you’re our roadie now” (laughs). We loaded the equipment in the car and we left that place in an hour. And Vicky Hamilton offered to help us [Popular 1, November 1992].

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32 minutes ago, Kittiara said:

Could it be that in Michelle's case her mother contacted the police, but as Michelle decided to not press charges, no charges were indeed brought? That'd make the bungalow incident the one that people know about.

Though, in the same post by SoulMonster, Axl refers to an "old girlfriend trying to get back at us" which, if that refers to Michelle, would be problematic because regardless of anything else, her being 15 at the time, and him being an adult, and the age of consent being 18... But, obviously, we can't know who he was referring to.

Possible, but others have said the police could use discretion to charge Axl without the consent of the alleged victim (Michelle). For what it's worth, here is what Michelle wrote in her opening remarks:

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Dizzy Reed had called my mom's boyfriend and Vince who had run The Shamrock Studios back in the day, showed up to rescue me. I swore him to secrecy for two weeks, I was afraid if he told my mom she would kill Axl with her bare hands. When the two weeks was up, he told her and I came home to an hysterical mother who had just called the cops to press charges. 

The band ( my family at the time) started calling to find out what was going on. When I told them what he had done to me, they freaked out. Slash was in tears, so was Steven . Duff came to the house at some point to beg my mom to drop the charges. 

I ended up refusing to talk to the detective again and refused to testify in court. I honestly didn't want my friends to be punished for what Axl had done. Meanwhile I'm heartbroken and  stained for life. I gave them the freedom to be something. 

 

It sounds like Michelle's mother was actively attempting to press charges. Indeed, if we are to believe Michelle, Duff tried persuading her to 'drop the charges'. Were they filed or not? Possible since Michelle mentioned court. Either way, if the police thought there was enough evidence to convict Axl, they likely would have filed charges regardless of Michelle's actions. There were other possible avenues to investigate the incident without her involvement... Dizzy Reed, Vince, Johnny X, etc. Either this was done, and nothing turned up, or none of it was investigated at all. How do we know? Because nothing came of the situation.

Edited by Live Like a Suicide
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3 hours ago, Little Michelle said:

My mom didn't want me there, but she knew I was dating Axl. 

Okay, thanks. Do you have any pictures with Axl from that time?

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2 hours ago, Live Like a Suicide said:

You say Izzy was the only other GN'R member there, and you don't know the people who assaulted you, other than Axl and a friend of Duff's. Can you please tell us why Slash was charged if he was not involved then?

He was never charged. 

8 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

Okay, thanks. Do you have any pictures with Axl from that time?

I got rid of all of them in my Twenties. 

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https://www.google.ca/amp/s/people.com/archive/cover-story-bye-bye-love-vol-42-no-3/amp/

http://ladydairhean.0catch.com/Axl/relationships.htm

Theres a ton of stuff out there about his cases with Stephanie and Erin. I think Erin was called as witness in Stephanie’s trial initially. 

Its a no brainer he’s violent with women, his own statements (if quoted accurately) point to that.

“The rape charges settled my hormones for a while” 

HUH? 

There’s been no mention of violence as such by the rest of the band members (as far as I am aware) against women in the same way or frequency as with Axl. Some shit happened with a girl or girls in chicago also while they were rehearsing for the illusions albums. 

In all honesty, the way these people lived their lives has been apparent from the start with the release of Appetite. And it was real. It wasn’t put on. 

They themselves spoke about people coming into their sphere and getting spat out. 

The people who got spat out might have something to say now. 

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1 hour ago, RONIN said:

Not my intention and sorry if it came off that way. I keep seeing "lack of evidence" bandied about here but many times there just isn't any in sexual assault/rape cases. I don't see that as a disqualifier for the victim necessarily.

All good. And neither do I. 

 

Common sense and from what people who have known him have said over the past few decades. He doesn't have a reputation for treating women very well. I didn't realize this was something open to interpretation.

I know about his reputation, but again, he was the famous one in those relationships, therefor- a target. We know very little to nothing about the other parties.

So only court verdicts count? You don't see the problem in assessing things through such a myopic lens?

Not necessarilly, but for the most part-yes, court verdicts are what matters( and yes, im aware those can go wrong, too). 

Perhaps, but the number of rape/sexual assault victims who are telling the truth far outweigh the liars if the available data is to be believed.

There is no perhaps about it, it definitely happens. As for the stats, you're right, it's true. 

You seem to have much more faith in the justice system than I do.

Justice is painfully slow, but yes, I have faith in it. 

 

Okay. But whether she's telling the truth or not, it doesn't change the reality that Axl and the band were most likely degenerate shitbags who treated women like crap.

Oh well.. whether they were degenerate shitbags or not, I honestly don't care.(unless any of these serious accusations are proven, that is). I'm not trying to bed them, buddy up with them or some such thing.. I just like their music. 🤷‍♀️

Sorry about this, just realised I'm yet to learn how to quote things on here. 

Edited by Minche
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39 minutes ago, Little Michelle said:

I got rid of all of them in my Twenties. 

Okay, I understand. So should I assume that you got rid of the pictures with other members of the band, too?

39 minutes ago, Little Michelle said:

He was never charged. 

Do you have an explanation on why he said that he was charged? (I'm not talking only about his book years later, but what he said back in the 80s), why Izzy said the same thing (that Slash was charged - or at least that the cops were after him, too) and why it was in the liner notes of Appetite for Destruction?

I'm sorry for the many questions, I said that I wouldn't do this, but I'm confused. 

Edited by Blackstar

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3 hours ago, RONIN said:

I'm not taking a stand for or against. I simply take a shot at Rose when the opportunity presents itself. The hyperbole is intended to take the piss out of people questioning Michelle's story/credibility and saying it lacks plausibility while in the same breath ostensibly defending Rose, a known abuser of women. For an example of the right way to assess both sides in a respectful and neutral way, see Blackstar's recent posts.

Respectfully, so what if the alleged witnesses were passed out? It's not plausible that people hanging out in a place called "Hell House" would be drunk/high to the point of passing out? It was literally a den of hedonism - I'd be surprised if anyone remembered anything 35 years later given the amount of booze and drugs that flowed through there.  Is there a possibility that Axl is innocent? Sure. Is it likely given his track record? 

And what evidence would be sufficient 30+ years after the fact? A DNA sample on her clothing that was torn off? Izzy remembering Michelle's rape and calling out Axl and Duff publicly? Even if he does remember - is it likely that he would go on the public record about it? If Michelle is telling the truth, I suspect the people who know about this situation will most likely stay silent and avoid any unwanted scrutiny.

For sure, aside from Stephanie and Erin probably.

Love you too sugarplums. :heart:

Erin and Stephanie benefited nicely from Axl’s music.

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9 minutes ago, Azifwekare said:

So is Michelle "Dio boots" or not? Or did two separate girls end up naked in the street?

In Raz Cue's book it looks like it is, but now he says that "Dio boots" was someone else who wasn't thrown out naked.

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17 minutes ago, Azifwekare said:

So is Michelle "Dio boots" or not? Or did two separate girls end up naked in the street?

I'm more interested in seeing what these boots looked like, I have an image in my head of some girl walking around with boots with Dio putting up the horns on them

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11 hours ago, Blackstar said:

Michelle herself says that her mother pressed charges but she refused to go testify in court, so it seems there were charges that went up to a point in the legal process and then dropped.

I don't know if you have seen the quotes I posted on the first page of the thread. There are a couple more besides the ones @SoulMonster posted:

http://www.mygnrforum.com/topic/222459-raz-cue-an-open-letter-to-duff-mckagan/?do=findComment&comment=4699624

There was this one by Izzy, following what Slash said in the same interview (sorry if it's inappropriate, but that's what he said):

Slash: That was no big deal. What happened is Axl and me were with these two girls, and they got in a sexual situation and they decided to file rape charges. Me and Axl had to borrow suits one day to go down to the police station and turn ourselves in over this crap – and when it came down to the wire, they dropped the charges because it was all bogus. We didn’t fucking do anything to them [Spin, May 1988].

Izzy: It turned out that our drummer had fucked one of their mothers, so it was a complicated story [Spin, May 1988].

Kim Fowley, who had a brief involvement with the band at that time, would later remember this:

FOWLEY: This was on Tuesday, and we talked again on Thursday and the following Saturday. The last day, I was in the bathtub, and Izzy called imploring me to get out of the bathtub because he was having an emergency. I said: “Hey, I already told you I can’t work with you, but what’s the emergency?” It was about three of the guys in the band and probably a mother and a daughter, and there was a big argument of some kind at Sunset and Gardner, where the band lived at the time in this cramped space, and something about the police either coming in or watching the house, blah blah blah. The three Guns N’ Roses guys did not want to be interrogated, so they disappeared. [Metal Sludge, 2012]

Izzy would also say in an interview after he had left the band that the police were after Axl and Slash, so the band left the rehearsal space and ended up in Vicky Hamilton's apartment:

Izzy: The police were after Axl and Slash. We returned from the studio to a kind of house without neighbors. We lived in the hallway together with two or three other bands. The police had told us that they were going to beat the shit out of us when they got ahold of us. So, we went home, it didn’t have a door, and we told a friend of ours, Robert John, photographer, that had a big Cadillac, “Robert, you’re our roadie now” (laughs). We loaded the equipment in the car and we left that place in an hour. And Vicky Hamilton offered to help us [Popular 1, November 1992].

 

Thank you, Blackstar. It's all so messy, isn't it? I mean, these quotes combined with the others could have all been related to one incident, or two, or there could have been several incidents where the guys got into a mess with women for one reason or another. Like, these quotes appear to possibly be linked to the bungalow incident, but then again they might not be because of the mention of a situation with a woman and her mother. So, that seems like a different scenario than the Dio Boots one, and according to Raz Cue that was a different situation again to what happened to Michelle, and I don't even know anymore!

Edited by Kittiara
Messed up quote

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