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Raz Cue - An Open Letter To Duff McKagan

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Where did the post go from Little Michelle this morning? There was just a link to a Facebook page and about 15 mins after the post was made here I clicked on the link but it said the page didn’t work or had been removed.....now the post had been removed from this thread completely????

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Kittiara said:

Thank you, Blackstar. It's all so messy, isn't it? I mean, these quotes combined with the others could have all been related to one incident, or two, or there could have been several incidents where the guys got into a mess with women for one reason or another. Like, these quotes appear to possibly be linked to the bungalow incident, but then again they might not be because of the mention of a situation with a woman and her mother. So, that seems like a different scenario than the Dio Boots one, and according to Raz Cue that was a different situation again to what happened to Michelle, and I don't even know anymore!

I think that if there had been two different incidents where charges were filed, we would have known it.

According to Raz Cue's new version, the "Dio Boots" incident didn't lead to a charge. I see that Raz Cue now refers to "Dio Boots" as "a hippie chick," the same phrase that Axl had used in the 1986 quote; he didn't describe her like that in his book though. He also now says that "Dio Boots" was messing with the studio equipment, again just like Axl had said in 1986, although he didn't mention this detail in his book. This is one of the things that lead me to think that Raz now adjusts the story according to the points made after his letter to Duff. So it's not clear if Axl's "hippie chick" is the same girl as Raz's "Dio Boots," and if the incident led to a charge or not.

Based on a couple of pictures from that time in Michelle's public social media posts, I wouldn't describe her as a hippie chick - although I'm not sure what "hippie chick" (or hippie in general) meant in the context of '80s L.A.

1 hour ago, Kittiara said:

I'd like to know the truth about this and other things I have read in this thread, like the story about the woman who worked for Penthouse, but due to the nature of these cases I know that that's difficult, if not impossible. It often does come down to he-said, she-said, especially after this amount of time. Which places me, as a fan, in a position of not knowing if my support for the band is reasonable - if these things are true, I don't think I can support them any longer, however much I love the music. 

Yeah, the Penthouse model story is a bit confusing, too. What she said sounds believable as something Axl could have done based on other publicly known stories about him, but when paying attention on the details and doing some fact checking, there are some things that don't quite match.

Edited by Blackstar
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It's such a downer to learn about all of this as a fan. Axl's abuse of women is no new news, but in some ways Michelle's story is even more horrific than anything that has emerged before.

A long time ago, when I first found out about the rape charge against Axl, I was prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt, but some of his own comments gave me a pause. I don't think an innocent man would say the things he said.

Despite feeling down about this, I fully support Michelle's right to tell her story as long as she's telling the truth. In fact, a while ago I was wondering whether we would ever hear from her.

1 hour ago, Kittiara said:

Aye, though Michelle said that wasn't the case in 1985. I'm in the UK, so I haven't a clue if that route was open to the police in California at that point.

Even if that route was open to the police, in reality I think it's extremely unlikely that a rape case would go to court if the victim doesn't co-operate.

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6 minutes ago, Scream of the Butterfly said:

Despite feeling down about this, I fully support Michelle's right to tell her story as long as she's telling the truth. In fact, a while ago I was wondering whether we would ever hear from her.

For sure, although my concern is that taking it to a fan forum really doesn't seem like the right route to take, and I would hate to think of the possibility of her not feeling able to go through the proper legal channels because some fans didn't believe her.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Kittiara said:

Aye, though Michelle said that wasn't the case in 1985. I'm in the UK, so I haven't a clue if that route was open to the police in California at that point.

There is much that is unclear at the moment. I'm trying to wrap my head around it but, admittedly, I haven't been successful. I think that what we can say, from Raz Cue's story along with Michelle's, is that her mom's boyfriend was a musician who was recording in a studio next to GN'R's. That this led to Michelle being around the band for what seems like a good while. I can imagine that this would have seemed super cool to a 15-year-old girl. The adults should have stopped it, really, because by all accounts it wasn't a good place to be for a teenager.

Then Raz mentions that his brother told him that Axl had been physically intimate with Michelle. Regardless of anything else, with Axl being an adult and Michelle being 15, if that happened that wasn't good. And I think that most people agree that at one point or another a 15-year-old was indeed sent out into the streets without her clothes.

It feels kind of icky to even discuss all this, and I normally stay well clear of being an armchair detective. I also feel conflicted because with Raz Cue writing about Michelle, and us discussing her, I feel that she has the right to share her version of events and I don't want to dismiss them just because I happen to be a fan of the band. But I also don't want to condemn Axl on the basis of this, because I believe in the presumption of innocence rather than being a part of the pitchfork brigade.

I'd like to know the truth about this and other things I have read in this thread, like the story about the woman who worked for Penthouse, but due to the nature of these cases I know that that's difficult, if not impossible. It often does come down to he-said, she-said, especially after this amount of time. Which places me, as a fan, in a position of not knowing if my support for the band is reasonable - if these things are true, I don't think I can support them any longer, however much I love the music. 

But it isn't about me. I guess all we can do is wait and see.

This pretty much where I am at - very well said. I am firmly in the ‘innocent until proven guilty’ camp. I’m not going to comment directly on the case in question but GENERALLY one of the things I find odd is that a 15 year old would be allowed to ‘date’ someone of around 19/20 and hang around him and his friends at a time when hedonism was at its peak??? I mean, literally full blown junkies??!! I can’t get my head around that at all.

Plus - the disappearance of the link to Facebook that Little Michelle posted this morning is weird. The link went to a page which had been deleted/taken down but no explanation why?

Edited by DTJ80

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13 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

Yeah, the Penthouse model story is a bit confusing, too. What she said sounds believable as something Axl could have done based on other publicly known stories about him, but when paying attention on the details and doing some fact checking, there are some things that don't quite match.

Thank you @Blackstar for your insight, could you please share some light to this?

3 minutes ago, Azifwekare said:

For sure, although my concern is that taking it to a fan forum really doesn't seem like the right route to take, and I would hate to think of the possibility of her not feeling able to go through the proper legal channels because some fans didn't believe her.

The lady said that she already seek legal help. 

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On 7/1/2019 at 7:38 AM, Sosso said:

Personally, I am sick and tired of being preached to about acceptable morals and virtue from the narcissistic, privileged and dimwitted members of the entertainment industry who have celebrated, amplified and cheered our country’s moral, ethical and spiritual decay.

THIS. 

100% accurate. To a T.

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Posted (edited)
On 7/1/2019 at 12:35 PM, soon said:

Could it be that the real reason that Dizzy was hired was as a thank you for being hauled in and (from what I can tell) not giving up Axl? Dizzy saved the band, therefore he gets in on it?

 

My first line of thinking exactly. Or perhaps, he had to hide longer cause he was more into the investigation/alleged lawsuit etc... so he didn't/couldn't "officially join" the band until things and the dust of them had truly settled?

Let me add this: I always felt since seeing Dizzy officially into the band roster, that it was some kind of a favor. Surely to Dizzy, cause they absolutely didn't need an additional keyboard player at that point to play ridiculously redundant keys on Civil War (so, 1990 already?).... he almost, ALMOST ruined the version of the song.

Edited by AncientEvil80
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Georgina Arriaga said:

Thank you @Blackstar for your insight, could you please share some light to this?

I tried to figure out the timing, based on the details she gave. She said that she was introduced to Axl by Riki Rachtman in NY when he was hosting Headbangers Ball. Riki Rachtman started hosting HB in 1990. She also said that the band were coming off their tour, so this makes it to have taken place in the 90s sometime during the UYI tour.

She said that Axl had lithium (as well as drugs, I think) in his bathroom. It was reported in the 80s that Axl was taking lithium for bipolar disorder; in the 90s, though, he was into the new age stuff, alternative medicine, homeopathy etc., so it sounds odd that he would still take lithium (although maybe he did - who knows). 

Also, the times that the band was in NY during the UYI tour in 1991 and 1992 (with the exception of the warm-up at the Ritz, possibly) it was reported in the press that Stephanie Seymour was there with him.

And then, in the end, she mentions that Axl went to Howard Stern's show the next day, he was late, Stern scolded him and Axl said that it was because he was with a "Penthouse pet" last night. There are only two known interviews Axl has ever done with Stern, one in 1989 and one in 1990 (along with Sebastian Bach), both on the phone (in the 1989 one Stern called Axl in his hotel room and in the 1990 one they called Stern from L.A.). In none of them Axl says anything like this. From the content, the 1989 interview was the first one with Stern and the 1990 interview the second (and most likely the last one). Stern has replayed those two interviews over the years. I looked into a site that keeps record of the Stern shows, and there's been no other interviews with Axl besides those two. I think he would've replayed it if it existed, or it would've surfaced somehow. Of course there's the possibility that she didn't remember well and mixed Stern with another radio show where Axl did an interview that is lost (because there is no other known interview where Axl said anything like this). The way she described it, though ("no one is late to my show") sounded like something Stern would say.

Edited by Blackstar
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Posted (edited)
On 7/1/2019 at 5:44 PM, rocknroll41 said:

Dizzy was in a band called The Wild from the mid to late 80s. They hung out with GnR a lot and recorded an album in the same studio GnR was at while recording a demo tape, I believe. During a performance of Nightrain in 1986, Axl dedicated the song to “dizzy and his hand,” cause diz was in the crowd with a broken arm at the time.

It was here. https://www.setlist.fm/setlist/guns-n-roses/1986/music-machine-los-angeles-ca-7bd6f684.html

First video-bootleg I've ever had the chance to see of GNR pre-AFD, on some copied VHS... back in 1992, IIRC.

Edited by AncientEvil80
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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Powderfinger said:

 

 

Its a no brainer he’s violent with women, his own statements (if quoted accurately) point to that.

“The rape charges settled my hormones for a while” 

HUH? 

 

That could simply mean after he was accused of rape, he started being more self-aware of his celebrity status and tried not to get himself in situations where he could be falsely accused of sexual assault. It isn't at all an admittance of violence against women.

 

(Edit for typo.)

Edited by GnR Chris
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1 minute ago, Oldest Goat said:

Still zero evidence. Saying random contradictory statements which vaguely and redundantly corroborates information which is already publicly known from interviews etc for decades is not evidence. In fact that points further to it clearly being cobbled together. 

I'm not going to be held hostage and pressured into trusting some untrustworthy stranger who's making such serious claims in such an unserious way. 

And the removal of the post this morning is weird - it was linked to a Facebook page but when I went to read it the page had been removed?? One of the mods here must have removed the post?

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3 minutes ago, DTJ80 said:

And the removal of the post this morning is weird - it was linked to a Facebook page but when I went to read it the page had been removed?? One of the mods here must have removed the post?

@alfierose @RussTCB @janrichmond what's that about?

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, RussTCB said:

That was part of it. Also, I don't want anyone posting the link to their personal fb page on the open forum. 

Cheers for explaining Russ - when you say ‘part of it’ was there something else at play? I wonder what the deleted FB page was.....odd.

Edited by DTJ80
Clarity

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8 minutes ago, DTJ80 said:

Cheers for explaining Russ - when you say ‘part of it’ was there something else at play? I wonder what the deleted FB page was.....odd.

You're welcome :) the other part was just that it was a broken link, or deleted page. Even if it was a working link, I just don't think we need to have people posting their fb pages on the open forum. Everyone can share them all the like via pm lol 

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Posted (edited)

I know the book Watch You Bleed has a bad reputation, but I just reread the parts that deal with this incident. According to the book, there was another separate statutory rape charge filed against Slash around the same time the police were after Axl for raping Michelle. Maybe that is what is causing some confusion.

 

Edited by Scream of the Butterfly

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This thread is become in true headache.....you need be too much careful to that someone interpret you of wrong form.... then sadly we need selfcensure.... 🚫

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2 hours ago, Oldest Goat said:

Still zero evidence. Saying random contradictory statements which vaguely and redundantly corroborates information which is already publicly known from interviews etc for decades is not evidence. In fact that points further to it clearly being cobbled together. 

I'm not going to be held hostage and pressured into trusting some untrustworthy stranger who's making such serious claims in such an unserious way. 

"Hi random stranger here. Believe my bullshit or else you're a bad person! Also, buy my book." Fuck that.

What kind of evidence are you expecting to see? I think it's pretty obvious she's not going to be posting any DNA samples.

It's ok to be on the fence and not just take her word for it, but your hostile tone is unwarranted.

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2 hours ago, GnR Chris said:

That could simply mean after he was accused of rape, he started being more self-aware of his celebrity status and tried not to get himself in situations where he could be falsely accused of sexual assault. It isn't at all an admittance of violence against women.

 

(Edit for typo.)

It could mean this yes, but Axl said “his hormones” calmed down for a while. It doesn’t sound like an intellectual or self aware decision. Sounds like sexual urges. 

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30 minutes ago, Scream of the Butterfly said:

I know the book Watch You Bleed has a bad reputation, but I just reread the parts that deal with this incident. According to the book, there was another separate statutory rape charge filed against Slash around the same time the police were after Axl for raping Michelle. Maybe that is what is causing some confusion.

 

In Mick Walls book Slash was charged with Axl. Slash’s charge was dropped first.

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, Scream of the Butterfly said:

What kind of evidence are you expecting to see? I think it's pretty obvious she's not going to be posting any DNA samples.

It's ok to be on the fence and not just take her word for it, but your hostile tone is unwarranted.

Literally any evidence would be a start. The police report. Medical reports. Reliable witnesses. Photos proving she at least even knew Axl. Her story not being full of contradictions as it is.

At this point I'm no longer on the fence; it's obviously not true. 

I don't agree with you about my tone being hostile and that not being warranted. 

Just edited that last bit out because I realised the book you were referring to, not you, must be saying Axl raped Michelle. Which again, there is no evidence at all to warrant that claim.

Edited by Oldest Goat
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1 hour ago, RussTCB said:

You're welcome :) the other part was just that it was a broken link, or deleted page. Even if it was a working link, I just don't think we need to have people posting their fb pages on the open forum. Everyone can share them all the like via pm lol 

Cheers. Suspense and paranoia is rife on the board at the minute. 🙁

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