Raz Cue - An Open Letter To Duff McKagan

[janrichmond]

8 minutes ago, DTJ80 said:

Sorry Jan - that’s not what I meant. Presumably the link went to something she wanted us to see but it was then pulled. I clicked on the link and it took me to Facebook and it said the page no longer existed/had been deleted.

I just wondered if anyone saw the FB page before it was deleted/removed (not the post here)?

Oh right, yeah the link didn't work when i tried it. Sorry i only know as much as as you 

[DTJ80]

1 minute ago, janrichmond said:

Oh right, yeah the link didn't work when i tried it. Sorry i only know as much as as you 

😆 - no worries!! I don’t do Facebook so only get what is posted here. 👍

[GnR Chris]

3 hours ago, killuridols said:

How is it normal or even a regular practice that people go accusing their partners of rape after sexual encounters? 

 

Look how many athletes or celebrities have been falsely accused. When there's money to be made or notoriety to be gained, a celebrity is more vulnerable to false claims. I happen to think Dandy Pie here is full of it. In her statement, she acts like she saved GNR by not going forward with the claims back then, and now she's miffed that they aren't thanking her for their success. Duff probably blocked her 'cause she's harassing him on social media. By her own account, Duff didn't even do anything except, I guess, piss her off with his record.

Edited July 7, 2019 by GnR Chris

[killuridols]

19 minutes ago, GnR Chris said:

Look how many athletes or celebrities have been falsely accused. When there's money to be made or notoriety to be gained, a celebrity is more vulnerable to false claims.

One detail though: most of these stories happened when Axl & co. were nobodies, so your theory does not apply here.

[GnR Chris]

3 minutes ago, killuridols said:

One detail though: most of these stories happened when Axl & co. were nobodies, so your theory does not apply here.

They weren't though. They were on the rise and by her own admission were about to get signed to a record deal. You don't think there were hangers on surrounding the band back then? They played killer shows, had all the drugs and parties, and were making a name for themselves getting record label attention.

 

Edit: And, AGAIN, this quote is taken from Watch You Bleed, from my understanding, which is loaded with factual errors. But even if it's an accurate quote, your premise that it's some sort of admission of guilt for sexual assault is ludicrous.

Edited July 8, 2019 by GnR Chris

[Minche]

4 minutes ago, killuridols said:

One detail though: most of these stories happened when Axl & co. were nobodies, so your theory does not apply here.

If they were nobodies, like you say, is it safe to assume that could be why she wouldnt testify against him back then? Cause they were broke and nobodies, what could she gain.. not money. So who cares about "justice" right ?

[Latx]

Just some points. It is had to mention by name or quote everyone.

pardon me if I am repeating myself.

1———For whatever parts of LM s story  is true and I believe the part about a girl of 15 being turned out by Axl without her clothes, ugly, nasty thing to do to someone,  I feel very sorry for her. I agree with who said this thread is confusing.  I wish her peace. Unfortunately for whatever happened to  her AND the other , others, there is nothing to do but find a peace. Who knows where the characters are today. Dead. In out of rehab. Still drugging. 

I know LM and My Michelle are different people.

GnR were , all 5 of them, low life’s, PWT,  In early 1990s interviews , about things now from  30  -35  years  ago, Slash saying he wanted to want d Axl and whatever girl have sex...he was too drugged or something so he just wanted to at watch...that they gave another to girl to some friends...wow.  These were not The Osmond Bros and those girls were lil, suburban, sheltered school girls. The rockers and groupies n the L.A scene then ...rough. Sex, drugs. Nasty living. Lost souls. So many groups just did not have that IT factor and did not make it. GnR did back then.

2——- Rape is very serious. Most serious. Sexually assault, sexually abuse, rape are crimes that  leave a lasting  memory on the victim until the victim dies. 

3——No one will never know the truth.  I am going to be arrested on this against LM before AxlW.Rose and  his legal camp / managers will ever see this old case see the light of day.  I am not trying to make a joke herevout of a serious thing like any form of sexually abuse. He was charged. Dismissed. Lack of evidence in the last century ago. Decades ago. 35 or more years ago.

In Bill Cosby’s cas, Joe Pateno covering for Sandusky, and some other recent  ones there were years , decades of proof in cove ups in payments and Non-Disclosure agreements,  closed court cases, witnesses, a repeated pattern....etc.

4— Some Of you are shocked by ....I do not know why. I do not know how old you are. 22? 19? 

GnR was a rough group 1990- back during their  years trying to make it.  This was not Poison or Warrant or BonJovi

 Only thing then vs. now is there was no instant reporting by internet, cell phone cameras, so social media.

By the time off the things hit the news , it as all old news. 

5—— I still like the music of my young years  of my early 20s in college of AFD, UYIs, and seeing them once at my university arena where I worked in my college years. Now, nah. It is Axls band . His musicians .  Old songs. Old people , lol,. Young 20 ish to late teens thinking GnR, so cool. Paying a car note payment  to a show  to hear Axl screeching , seats far away, etc. The real band is not even the here and cannot be. Izzy said no and Stev in no way could do a 4 year tour.  But hey, to you those  going, go. 500 million half a billion in the ASD record braking   4 year tour with each man probably going to pull 100 mill more or less, go for it.

Slash is a must because he is a character. Duff really does not need to be there for fans or people like me. 

6— This thread all started with Duff the Hyprocrical, sanctimonious, puzzy, and Brown noser to Axl, 

I agree with Sasso. I would like to quote but I cannot find the post.

 

Edited July 8, 2019 by Latx
Wrong quote

[killuridols]

27 minutes ago, GnR Chris said:

They weren't though. They were on the rise and by her own admission were about to get signed to a record deal. You don't think there were hangers on surrounding the band back then? They played killer shows, had all the drugs and parties, and were making a name for themselves getting record label attention.

There were hangers but the band were not rich neither millionaires prior to getting a record deal and not even right after they got it. AFD took a long time to take off.

30 minutes ago, GnR Chris said:

Edit: And, AGAIN, this quote is taken from Watch You Bleed, from my understanding, which is loaded with factual errors. But even if it's an accurate quote, your premise that it's some sort of admission of guilt for sexual assault is ludicrous.

I dont think he ever felt guilty for assaulting women. Not then. Dont know later or now.

Those words are being said by someone who realised his sexual practices could lead to rape accusations, so he was cautious about it for a while. Only for a while, because later he kept doing it to other women and his own wife.

[killuridols]

32 minutes ago, Minche said:

If they were nobodies, like you say, is it safe to assume that could be why she wouldnt testify against him back then? Cause they were broke and nobodies, what could she gain.. not money. So who cares about "justice" right ?

You can assume whatever you want but Michelle already stated why she didn't want to testify against him. 

[Minche]

3 minutes ago, killuridols said:

You can assume whatever you want but Michelle already stated why she didn't want to testify against him. 

Im stating this: Im super hot, a VS model hot, a multimillionaire, I have a dog, and a cat..  Did I mention I go to gym 5x a week? My faves are koala bears. - But is any of this true? 🤔

[killuridols]

1 minute ago, Minche said:

But is any of this true? 🤔

Depends on who knows you and who doesn't. 

I dont know you so this is a 50-50 chance for me.

[Latx]

1 hour ago, killuridols said:

One detail though: most of these stories happened when Axl & co. were nobodies, so your theory does not apply here.

They were no bodies. They had the IT factor. About to get signed...not yet.

About to have a lot of money take a risk on something not nationally proven...who knew for sure. It is always a gamble. Add the recklessness of the band, a gamble fo the business people.

Geffen etc. did not have ESP. Lol. Soooo soooo many bands. Sooo many fell by wayside. They just did not The IT factor. 

[killuridols]

42 minutes ago, Latx said:

They were no bodies. They had the IT factor. About to get signed...not yet.

About to have a lot of money take a risk on something not nationally proven...who knew for sure. It is always a gamble. Add the recklessness of the band, a gamble fo the business people.

After signing with Geffen it took them 2 years to release AFD and AFD took a year to become a commercial success.

If Michelle's incident happened before them signing a record deal, then it is safe to say that she couldn't possibly know the dimension of the band's success in the near future, unless she was a fortune teller 

Not only that.... if she was after the money (as some people here assume), then why didn't she join Erin & Stephanie lawsuits? There were many more chances of her getting money back then than there would be now 

[BlueJean Baby]

According to info from the books, the incident, for lack of a better word, occurred December 1985 (if I am remembering the month correctly), they signed with Geffen March of 1986 and AFD was released July 21, 1987. 

Edited July 8, 2019 by BlueJean Baby

[Sydney Fan]

18 minutes ago, BlueJean Baby said:

According to info from the books, the incident, for lack of a better word, occurred December 1985 (if I am remembering the month correctly), they signed with Geffen March of 1986 and AFD was released July 21, 1987. 

So im thinking between december and march the band had created a buzz on the scene and were most likely making a name for themselves in the clubs. As LM said she and others had wanted to see the band succeed. I guess she was putting the bands potential first and herself second hence not making waves with reporting the incident that occured.

Edited July 8, 2019 by Sydney Fan

[Minche]

39 minutes ago, killuridols said:

After signing with Geffen it took them 2 years to release AFD and AFD took a year to become a commercial success.

If Michelle's incident happened before them signing a record deal, then it is safe to say that she couldn't possibly know the dimension of the band's success in the near future, unless she was a fortune teller 

Not only that.... if she was after the money (as some people here assume), then why didn't she join Erin & Stephanie lawsuits? There were many more chances of her getting money back then than there would be now 

What a good heart she has. Sacrificing her own well-being for a band with such an uncertain future. I'm in awe. And boy, do I need to reassess my whole life now. 😏

[Live Like a Suicide]

1 hour ago, Sydney Fan said:

So im thinking between december and march the band had created a buzz on the scene and were most likely making a name for themselves in the clubs. As LM said she and others had wanted to see the band succeed. I guess she was putting the bands potential first and herself second hence not making waves with reporting the incident that occured.

Except, according to Michelle, her mother did report the alleged crime to file charges (it is still uncertain if they were actually pressed against Axl or not). If what Michelle says is true, there were copious amounts of witnesses known to Michelle and Axl, including her family members, friends of the band (including one current member - Dizzy), and bystanders in a parking lot. Even if Michelle refused to talk to an officer, there were more than enough leads to investigate Axl and the alleged crime. Indeed, the police would have talked to Michelle's mother, who, in any reasonable circumstance, would have lead them to Dizzy (who informed her) and Vince (who Dizzy also called to collect Michelle after Axl's alleged crime). This, in turn, would have lead the police to other associates and regulars of the Gardner studio. The simple fact that nothing ever resulted in this case indicates that it wasn't worth pursuing then, and certainly not now - if indeed it is true at all.

Edited July 8, 2019 by Live Like a Suicide

[Latx]

1 hour ago, killuridols said:

After signing with Geffen it took them 2 years to release AFD and AFD took a year to become a commercial success.

If Michelle's incident happened before them signing a record deal, then it is safe to say that she couldn't possibly know the dimension of the band's success in the near future, unless she was a fortune teller 

Not only that.... if she was after the money (as some people here assume), then why didn't she join Erin & Stephanie lawsuits? There were many more chances of her getting money back then than there would be now 

I agree. Thnx. Good points. 

[Latx]

Uhhhhh, you guys. I really do not want to say anything against her.

So I’ll say again, I hope she can find peace  and move fromn30-35 years ago for whatever happened to her. We here none know what happened or what was true for her,the other  one, and all the groupies. I make no fun or think lightly of anyone sexually abused. If what happened , happened, then  all that she can do is let fate and karma work itself out as in  you reap what you sow. 

witnesses?  There are no witnesses.  Then or now. All are dead or  unknown today. The living ones who were around then and still now are yes men on payroll. Ex. Dizzy.   Those around then. Izzy for example was Drugged out and passed out then and saw nothing. Yes unknown whereabouts today so to speak. 

Case then or now. There was no case then and definite will not be one today.

Edited July 8, 2019 by Latx

[Latx]

Soeaking for  my insomniac self  as  I am off from work right now,  I cannot remember three days ago, let alone what happened , who, or where I was on a particular day 30-35 years ago.

Can you?

 

Edited July 8, 2019 by Latx

[Live Like a Suicide]

57 minutes ago, Latx said:

Uhhhhh, you guys. I really do not want to say anything against her.

So I’ll say again, I hope she can find peace  and move fromn30-35 years ago for whatever happened to her. We here none know what happened or what was true for her,the other  one, and all the groupies. I make no fun or think lightly of anyone sexually abused. If what happened , happened, then  all that she can do is let fate and karma work itself out as in  you reap what you sow. 

witnesses?  There are no witnesses.  Then or now. All are dead or  unknown today. The living ones who were around then and still now are yes men on payroll. Ex. Dizzy.   Those around then. Izzy for example was Drugged out and passed out then and saw nothing. Yes unknown whereabouts today so to speak. 

Case then or now. There was no case then and definite will not be one today.

While i appreciate that Michelle may have been a victim of abuse, that is no reason not to question her or her claims, especially when she presents her story on an open forum. In any case, had Michelle been abused, I too wish her peace and recovery.

Moving forward, there absolutely were alleged witnesses. We're talking the people who were involved in the crime, those who were witnesses to it (Johnny X, other bystanders in the studio and in the carpark), and those who were involved after the fact and can corroborate information (Dizzy - who presumably was there and rang up Vince, another witness, to collect Michelle). It would have been possible for the police to conduct their investigation with this many leads.

 

 

[Live Like a Suicide]

10 minutes ago, Latx said:

Soeaking for  my insomniac self  as a I am off from work ight now,  I cannot remember three days ago, let alone what happened at a party or gathering  or where I was on a particular day 30-35 years ago.

Can you?

 

That's a strawman argument. Not everybody was fucked up that night - Michelle explicitly mentions those who were. Even then, there were witnesses who were cognisant of the situation - Johnny X, Dizzy, Vince, etc. If the police had done their job following Michelle's mother's reporting, they would have interviewed these witnesses at the time. 

[Latx]

You have good points. Failure by police. Etc.

[killuridols]

2 hours ago, Minche said:

What a good heart she has. Sacrificing her own well-being for a band with such an uncertain future. I'm in awe. And boy, do I need to reassess my whole life now. 😏

I didn't say the band had an uncertain future. I said it was impossible for her to guess the impact of the band in the following years after the release of AFD, so your theory of her pursuing the "millions" does not apply.

Also, she said she was sought after by other members of the band to find out what happened, going desperate when she told them. She particularly mentioned Duff going to her house to ask her mom to drop the charges.

As the vulnerable teenager that she was, wouldn't you feel coerced and scared of moving further with the whole thing? She considered the band her "family", which doesn't mean they had the same feelings for her, but as any other teenager infatuated with older guys and their hedonistic lifestyle, it's not hard to figure out why she'd "sacrifice" herself for them.

Add to it that she was probably a girl with low self-esteem, seeking for attention of older men, validation from people she looked up to. A combo of this with the typical adolescent insecurities, plus the shock of being abused by someone she was in love with, can lead anyone and especially a young girl, to want it over ASAP.

 

 

Edited July 8, 2019 by killuridols

[EricA]

4 hours ago, killuridols said:

Not only that.... if she was after the money (as some people here assume), then why didn't she join Erin & Stephanie lawsuits? There were many more chances of her getting money back then than there would be now 

It's not about the money back then, it's about the money NOW. The first subtle instagram posts to tell "the truth" are from 2016, what a coincidence !? 

i don't know from what time the first FB posts "about it" are, cause i'm not a FB user.

and that's all I have to say here, this thread makes angry in so many ways.