Raz Cue - An Open Letter To Duff McKagan

[Euchre]

I feel there is some flawed logic going on in this thread or an desire by some to see through anything that could point to this being true - although given this is GNR forum I suppose it is hardly surprising that people don’t want an image they have built shattered.

What I mean by this is :

1) Raz has confirmed this is the Michelle that was regularly hanging around the studio and a friend of the band - yet some seem to be directing questions at her suggesting she prove she even knew the band

2) Raz has also confirmed that this is the girl the incident happened to & that she was 15 at the time. At the very least all parties quoted ie Michelle, Raz and GNR members themselves have said that she ends up naked in the alley. By any sane measure a 15 year old girl having her clothes ripped off by adult men and being thrown into the street is pretty disturbing. It doesn’t matter what the reason was, or whatever the girl did or didn’t do - doing this to a 15 year old is a low act and I’d be surprised if that alone wasn’t criminal. There is no justification for that sort of behaviour or reaction.

3) I’m not sure if this has been mentioned in the thread but there is definitely an Axl quote out there where he talks about ‘escorting people out of the Hell House and by escort I mean drag them down the alley naked’. I’m paraphrasing but someone I’m sure can find the exact quote. Up until now i had always assumed he was talking about grown men they beat up but now it takes on a really creepy tone and quite disturbing really. The quote makes it sound like he is bragging about it and he obviously neglects to mention that (if the allegations are true) he is referring to a 15 year old girl - so he is at least self aware enough to know how bad including that part would look.

4) Other girls have been mentioned in the thread with similar stories. Again I’m pretty sure there is an Erin Everly quote out from a court testimony there that sounds eerily similar about being tied up, assaulted and locked in a closet from memory. So the suggestions that this is out of character or a one off or an implausible story are really ignoring the similar stories that are out there - unless all these girls have banded together in some great conspiracy. Similarly the suggestions about motives - some have sought legal recourse some haven’t - so not all can be put down to a motive about money. So trying to assert that all these girls have made this up looking for a payday doesn’t hold. I’m well aware none of this proves Axl did anything, but all I’m saying is there are plenty of stories out there of him behaving in a pretty consistent manner so to make out this is completely implausable is to be wilfully ignoring other stories by unrelated people. There is the stairwell incident in Chicago as well that both Slash and Steve have confirmed as first hand witnesses.

5) The fact that Raz has come out with this also is reason to pause and consider. To use his own words after reading his book I thought the guy came off like an Axl kiss ass. He certainly doesn’t come across like he has an axe to grind. So for someone peripheral to the situation and at least impartial if not a GNR/Axl advocate to come out the way they have certainly must mean there is genuine belief in his mind that this is plausible.

6) All this talk of presumption of innocence as though it means Michelle can’t speak up. Correct me if I’m wrong - but is Axl in jail for this without trial ? If he isn’t then he is been granted the presumption of innocence & he is 100% entitled to it. It doesn’t extend to whether people can or can’t make allegations or whether people on a message board are free to form their own views as to the veracity of such claims. If it did no one could ever make an allegation and no one would be ever prosecuted for a crime. The evidentiary hurdle in a criminal trial is beyond reasonable doubt. In a civil trial it is balance of probabilities. Similarly presumption of innocence is in relation to criminal proceedings.

7) There seems to be a push by some to make Michelle seem like this crazy girl making up stories full of inconsistencies. I’m of the other view - she comes across quite rational and goes into great detail on things that I think would be hard to do if you weren’t actually there. (Ie describing layouts, people). I think it would be difficult to lie with that level of detail.

8) I wouldn’t expect other band members to speak up on it even if they did witness it. I’m pretty sure there is an Izzy quote where he talks about selling both drugs and girls and from memory Geffen made him break up with his underage girlfriend when they got signed. The point is more than likely a few of them would be in trouble is past actions started being brought up - and as much as they know about Axl, Axl would know about them. Let’s face it Slash and Duff are primarily motivated by money these days so they aren’t going to give up their golden goose. Same with Dizzy.

9) The last point I wanted to make is the same one I tried to make on my other post in this topic. No one can no for sure what happened in that room except for those that were there. I think most would agree that just the parts confirmed by all parties are pretty bad and would have caused huge emotional damage for Michelle. If the rest of it is true it is one of the worst possible crimes out there and would have been horrific for her. Now even if you think there is only a 1% chance of that part being true - do you want to run the risk of being the person ripping into someone that went through that. How are you going to feel if it turns out it’s true. Sure Michelle has come to a public forum, and a GNR one at that - but she clearly isn’t crazy and this can’t be immediately dismissed as the ravings of a deranged individual - so sure ask questions but I’d think for your own sake let alone hers to do it in a pretty respectful and balanced way.

[Lio]

2 minutes ago, Euchre said:

Raz has also confirmed that this is the girl the incident happened to & that she was 15 at the time. At the very least all parties quoted ie Michelle, Raz and GNR members themselves have said that she ends up naked in the alley. By any sane measure a 15 year old girl having her clothes ripped off by adult men and being thrown into the street is pretty disturbing. It doesn’t matter what the reason was, or whatever the girl did or didn’t do - doing this to a 15 year old is a low act and I’d be surprised if that alone wasn’t criminal. There is no justification for that sort of behaviour or reaction.

No one is trying to justify throwing out a girl naked on the street. That's not what it is about at all. That's been common knowledge for many years.

[DTJ80]

As a parent, I just can’t get my head around that a 15 year old would be allowed to hang about in this environment in the first place......full of junkies etc?

[MillionsOfSpiders]

1 hour ago, EricA said:

It's not about the money back then, it's about the money NOW. The first subtle instagram posts to tell "the truth" are from 2016, what a coincidence !? 

I noticed that too.

Also strange she went to Las Vegas at the same time GnR played the newly opened T-Mobile arena and the area was full of fans celebrating the reunion. 

I would’ve thought that would be something to avoid at all costs. 

There’s an account registered here called Dandypie in 2016 - maybe her too? Bit of a coincidence someone should choose that name.

1 hour ago, DTJ80 said:

As a parent, I just can’t get my head around that a 15 year old would be allowed to hang about in this environment in the first place......full of junkies etc?

There’s that and then there’s letting band members come round to your house to try and talk you out of prosecuting their friend - I think not! Also, letting her be in a position to talk with Axl when she hadn’t fully decided to go to court or not - and then be places she would bump into him for years afterwards? Terrible. 

[EricA]

 

22 minutes ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

I noticed that too.

Also strange she went to Las Vegas at the same time GnR played the newly opened T-Mobile arena and the area was full of fans celebrating the reunion. 

I would’ve thought that would be something to avoid at all costs. 

There’s an account registered here called Dandypie in 2016 - maybe her too? Bit of a coincidence someone should choose that.

and all these are things, that people don't consider when useing their social medias, a minute of research, and here we go with all the coincidences

[Azifwekare]

6 hours ago, Sydney Fan said:

So im thinking between december and march the band had created a buzz on the scene and were most likely making a name for themselves in the clubs. As LM said she and others had wanted to see the band succeed. I guess she was putting the bands potential first and herself second hence not making waves with reporting the incident that occured.

Why would she want them to succeed after they'd just basically gang raped her?

2 hours ago, Euchre said:

5) The fact that Raz has come out with this also is reason to pause and consider. To use his own words after reading his book I thought the guy came off like an Axl kiss ass. He certainly doesn’t come across like he has an axe to grind. So for someone peripheral to the situation and at least impartial if not a GNR/Axl advocate to come out the way they have certainly must mean there is genuine belief in his mind that this is plausible.

In his book Raz mocks Michelle, calls her crazy and basically says she's lying.

Raz is also a huge Trump fan. Duff isn't. Duff has some choice words for Trump, Raz gets upset that his leader was insulted.

Raz then backtracks on everything he said about Michelle, does a 180 and now writes this letter that says it's all true while calling out Duff (not Axl, you know, the actual rapist), before ending it by saying how much he loves Trump, which has nothing to do with Michelle's story and undermines the whole letter.

Nah, Raz certainly doesn't have an axe to grind.

If Michelle's story is true, I'd imagine she'd want Raz to shut the fuck up as his involvement isn't helping her at all.

2 hours ago, Euchre said:

7) There seems to be a push by some to make Michelle seem like this crazy girl making up stories full of inconsistencies. I’m of the other view - she comes across quite rational and goes into great detail on things that I think would be hard to do if you weren’t actually there. (Ie describing layouts, people). I think it would be difficult to lie with that level of detail.

I've read everything she's said in this thread, and I'm still none the wiser. In fact, I'm more confused than before. I don't want to be a dick and say it's not true, but none of the information that we have adds up.

[Lio]

18 minutes ago, Azifwekare said:

Raz is also a huge Trump fan. Duff isn't. Duff has some choice words for Trump, Raz gets upset that his leader was insulted.

Raz then backtracks on everything he said about Michelle, does a 180 and now writes this letter that says it's all true while calling out Duff (not Axl, you know, the actual rapist), before ending it by saying how much he loves Trump, which has nothing to do with Michelle's story and undermines the whole letter.

 

This times a hundred. Duff wasn't even there according to all accounts we have. But somehow he gets attacked on social media by Michelle and her supporters, and on here, because he made a metoo song What about Axl and Slash? They were both there. Why aren't they attacked? Why not talk to Slash and Steven, who she was hanging out with all the time? What is their take on it? I think at least Steven should be really approachable. He does small shows and is always willing to talk to fans.

And yes, Raz Cue, lol, he's just an upset Trump supporter changing his story because he doesn't like what Duff has to say.

[Scream of the Butterfly]

@Euchre Excellent post!

[Euchre]

The reasoning along the lines of ”Raz loves Trump, Duff disses Trump so therefore Raz accuses Axl of rape” - is exactly what I’m talking about when I refer to flawed logic. Does that really sound like reasonable rationale to anyone ?

If Raz just wanted to go after Duff I’m sure he has heaps of ammo to do so, he doesn’t need to bring Axl into and burn those bridges & also need to pretend he made an error in his book (I mean if he is making it up now because mad about a Trump dis presumably you believe the original account in the book was the true one and he has pretended he made an error to make things fit). It seems quite some lengths to go to and a bit of self sabotage over someone dissing a politician.

The far more logical explanation is the one he has put forward - that he became aware of new information about an incident he was on the fringes of and his conscious has gnawed at him and he has come out in support of someone he feels has been wronged - and done so at personal expense in terms of friendships, reputation and having to admit to errors in his book. That can’t have been an easy step and on the errors he went into detail in explaining how they came about and his reasoning sounds plausible to me. Back to my original post this is why I said Duff should look to the actions Raz has taken if he wants to learn how to be a man as it takes a huge amount of fortitude and humility to take the steps he has and at personal sacrifice.

[Blackstar]

The timeline of this is also very confusing, and there are things that don’t add up. 

By all accounts, the incident took place at Gardner St. studios, where the band rehearsed and practically lived for a while (although it seems that Duff and Izzy had their own apartments, and Axl would crash in various places), in an attached small apartment where they had built a small loft, throwing those infamous parties at the parking lot. There were other bands there – one of them being Johnny and the Jaguars and then called The Wild (Dizzy’s old band) – and many people frequenting the place. Also by all accounts, after the police were informed about the incident and raided the place (according to band members the cops broke down the door of the apartment), the band had to leave it and ended up (right away or after roaming for a few days) living in Vicky Hamilton’s apartment. 

According to Vicky Hamilton, who also seems to be the source for the books by Stephen Davis (Watch You Bleed) and Mick Wall in regards to the timing, the incident took place in December 1985 and by Christmas the band were at her apartment. Michelle, too, says that it happened during that month, and that two weeks passed before her mother and the cops knew about it; moreover, she says that before the incident, Axl was away in Indiana for weeks, so she wasn’t able to tell him about the alleged pregnancy and then the miscarriage (which, she says, happened five weeks after she knew she was pregnant, and then some more time passed after the miscarriage until Axl finally returned to L.A.).  

Raz Cue, though, in his book, places it in January 1986, and seems very confident about the timing, as he gives details and a specific time indicator (see below). 

A look at the known club shows the band played during that time period (late ’85 – early ’86) can help shed some more light, in combination with the other sources: 

November 22, 1985 – The Troubadour 

December 20, 1985 – Music Machine 

January 4, 1986 – The Troubadour 

January 18, 1986 – The Roxy 

[January 26, 1986 – Starwood Club (source: a-4-d.com)] 

[February 1, 1986 – The Troubadour (source: gnrontour.com) or Timbers Ballroom (source: ad & flyer at troccolitm.com] 

February 28, 1986 – The Troubadour 

March 21, 1986 - Fenders Ballroom

 The first thing to notice here (even without the two shows in brackets) is that, in either version of December 1985 or January 1986, the band didn’t hide for a long time; which means that the issue was solved within a short period of time, at least by taking a legal route that allowed Axl and Slash to move freely without being at risk of getting arrested. 

The December 20 and January 4 shows came with flyers that asked for donations for a “Keep us out of jail fund” (you can see them at gnrontour.com). Another, seemingly earlier, flyer, found in Marc Canter’s book Reckless Road, which advertised all three shows of Dec. 20, Jan. 4 and Jan. 18, didn’t contain the donation bit. This seems to underpin the December 1985 version, furthermore indicating: that the legal trouble had occurred already around mid-December (although the band still played shows - Mick Wall wrote wrongly, among many other inaccuracies, that the Dec. 20 show was cancelled); and, (going by Michelle’s version), that the incident itself happened two weeks prior, i.e. early December - so just a few days after the band had played another show on November 22^nd. 

As I said above, Raz Cue’s book The Days of Guns N’ Raz’s gives a different timing, namely January 1986. According to Raz Cue in the book, the “Dio Boots” girl incident (and the subsequent first police raid that led to Dizzy’s arrest and then to the band’s fleeing) took place about one week after the Roxy show on January 18. In his recent new version of events, as it appears on his website, Raz doesn’t mention anything about getting the date of the “Dio Boots” incident wrong. He only places the incident with Michelle “a couple of weeks” before the – now separate - “Dio Boots” one (so about a week before the Roxy show), and the police raid (and Dizzy’s arrest) for the Michelle incident “the next night, or the one after” the “Dio Boots” incident (so about a week after the Roxy show). So all still in January. 

It could be just assumed that Raz Cue simply gets the timeline wrong and stop here, but now the big confusion starts. 

According to Reckless Road, as well as The Days of Guns N’ Raz’s, the Jan. 18 Roxy show created a big buzz, which attracted many A&R people from record labels (it was the show that Tom Zutaut missed because he arrived too late). 

Slash and Duff don’t give a timing in their autobiographies; Duff, though, says that the incident happened “just as the record label frenzy around us was heating up.” [Steven’s book doesn’t help: he is the only one who doesn’t mention the incident at all, and says that he has no idea why they moved into Vicky Hamilton’s apartment (!); he also seems at times to confuse the Gardner studio with West Arkeen’s and Del’s place.] 

There is a recording of the Jan. 18^th show at the Roxy, where Axl is heard dedicating the last song of the set (Goodnight Tonight) like this: “This is for the last two weeks worth of partying at the studio, and all those sweet girls that we asked to see their tits.” This seems to indicate that the band was still at Gardner studios at that time, giving merit to Raz Cue’s timeline.  

At the February 28^th show, that there is also a recording of, Out Ta Get Me is played for the first time and Axl dedicates it “to the LAPD, and any young girls that like to fuck around.” Slash is heard saying, “[...] if anybody runs into a couple of guys named Jeff and Alan (or Allen), feel free to kick their fucking heads in. These are the guys that kicked in our studio door, so if you see them, be my guest.” So that show was definitely after the incident and after the band had come back from hiding, having also written the song related to it in the meantime. That was also the show Tom Zutaut attended and decided to sign the band. 

But then what about the “Keep us out of jail fund” flyers for the earlier shows of Dec. 20^th and Jan. 4^th? Could they have been coincidental, just a clever way to promote the band as “bad boys”? It’s so confusing...

------- 

Anyway, regardless of which version about the timing is correct and whether the incident took place in December 1985 or January 1986, there seems to be a big problem with the claim that Axl was in Indiana “for weeks” before it happened: As noted above, in the December version (going by what Michelle says about the two weeks that passed between it and the police interference, in combination with the date of the show and the flyer for it), the incident is placed in early December, just a few days after the band had played another show, so Axl was there. In the January version, also (going by Raz Cue’s timeline and Axl’s dedication at the Roxy show) the band had played a show on January 4^th, i.e. just about a week before the incident happened (plus they were partying at the rehearsal space for two weeks before the Roxy show), so Axl was there. 

Moreover:  

Raz Cue says in his book that Axl went to Indiana before he joined L.A Guns (=last months of 1984 – pre-GnR) and there his parents tried to make him give up being a musician and study to be a sound engineer instead, and that made Axl give it another shot in L.A. and take the offer to join L.A. Guns although he was reluctant before because he didn’t like the music they played. 

Axl would confirm that his parents had tried to make him go back to Indiana:

Axl: Up until we got signed, I lived on the streets for five years. I never lived in one place for more than two months, always crashing at people's houses. My parents would say, 'Come back home and go to college and we'll pay for it' but I would reply, 'No, I have to do this now.' [Hit Parader, April 1987] 

And in an interview in late December 1987, Axl would say that he had just come back from Indiana, where he hadn’t been for about 2-1/2 years, because the last time he had been there his parents had told him that he would achieve nothing being in a band, so he didn’t want to go back there until he had made it and prove them wrong:

Axl: [...] I hadn't been back in two years and the last time I was back there - it was at least two and a half years - I thought, I just told myself, ‘I'm not coming back until I get a record out,’ because too many people kept saying ‘Oh, you'll never get anywhere.’ [Interview with Steve Harris, Dec. 1987] 

------

TL;DR:

So, the claim that Axl was in Indiana for weeks is disproved by the show dates, and, additionally, it doesn’t seem plausible at all that Axl would want to visit Indiana at that point, when the band had started to get interest from record labels. That was also the time that most of the AFD songs were written, and the band debuted a new one almost at each show (e.g. Nightrain was played for the first time at the Dec. 20 show, My Michelle was debuted at the Jan. 4th show, Out Ta Get Me at the Feb. 28th show), so how Axl couldn't have been there all the time? And, as it has already been pointed out, why would he want a baby at that time?!

Edited July 8, 2019 by Blackstar

[killuridols]

5 hours ago, EricA said:

It's not about the money back then, it's about the money NOW. The first subtle instagram posts to tell "the truth" are from 2016, what a coincidence !? 

i don't know from what time the first FB posts "about it" are, cause i'm not a FB user.

and that's all I have to say here, this thread makes angry in so many ways.

The return of GN'R to the big scene made a lot of people from the past to come out and talk about them.

I don't know if you were around in 2015-2016 but I remember Marc Canter and the stripper girls talking for a documentary by UPROXX, Alan Niven in radio interviews, Doug Goldstein too, Vicky Hamilton with her book, Michelle Young attending shows, Erin Everly with her Instagram posts, Meegan Hodges back again with Slash.... I mean, it certainly was a moment of memories for all of them, not just the band.

Like Michelle said before, it angered her to see her story in those books painting her as a crazy partying girl. And the cherry of the pie was hearing Duff trying to rewrite history about who they were and how they treated women.

I don't know if today it would be so easy for her to get money from a lawsuit. The time that has passed is against her case and the witnesses she had will never testify against Axl.

All that she got now is to make her story known and its up to us, individually, to either believe her or not.

5 hours ago, DTJ80 said:

As a parent, I just can’t get my head around that a 15 year old would be allowed to hang about in this environment in the first place......full of junkies etc?

Have you ever heard about bad parenting?

I don't want to disrespect Michelle's mother but maybe she didn't know better at the time and it wouldn't be the first time a young girl is given too much freedom.

If you take a look at the personal history of most of the girls who hung with GN'R, they are pretty similar to the band members themselves. Girls coming from either broken homes or repressive environments, having unprotected sex resulting in unwanted pregnancies and subsequent abortions or miscarriages.... I mean, I wouldn't expect any of them to be from a much different background than the musicians.

2 hours ago, Lio said:

This times a hundred. Duff wasn't even there according to all accounts we have. But somehow he gets attacked on social media by Michelle and her supporters, and on here, because he made a metoo song What about Axl and Slash?

Duff gets attacked for being a hypocritical fuck... How is that so hard to understand? Neither Slash nor Axl have spoke with such hypocrisy about the #metoo movement like Duff did, but I'm sure if they were going to pose about that, they'd get a backlash as well.

[Lio]

1 minute ago, killuridols said:

Duff gets attacked for being a hypocritical fuck... How is that so hard to understand? Neither Slash nor Axl have spoke with such hypocrisy about the #metoo movement like Duff did, but I'm sure if they were going to pose about that, they'd get a backlash as well.

Yeah, but I'm talking about this particular case. Why attack Duff when he isn't the perpetrator and wasn't even there? Even if he is a hypocrite (which I'm not saying he is), is that worse than being the perpetrator? Especially from Michelle's POV?

So is it worse to say now that it's not okay to abuse women than to actually have done it?

As far as I know, Duff has never been accused of rape or abuse, and the last 2 decades or so he has led a healthy life, being a good person, trying to stay on the right path, raising a family. But all of a sudden he has to be attacked, not the heroin dealer, not the alleged rapist, just because they shut up? It makes absolutely zero sense to me.

Same goes for the others who joined in the rape. Wouldn't you try to find out who they were after it happened? Or would you still live around that scene suspicious that anyone around there might be one of the people abusing you? Why don't they get any backlash? They were just as guilty as Axl was, if the story is true. But no, let's all attack the guy who wasn't there at all, but makes a song about how it is not okay to abuse women more than 30 years later, because he is clearly the enemy. It makes zero sense.

[Sydney Fan]

9 minutes ago, Lio said:

Yeah, but I'm talking about this particular case. Why attack Duff when he isn't the perpetrator and wasn't even there? Even if he is a hypocrite (which I'm not saying he is), is that worse than being the perpetrator? Especially from Michelle's POV?

So is it worse to say now that it's not okay to abuse women than to actually have done it?

As far as I know, Duff has never been accused of rape or abuse, and the last 2 decades or so he has led a healthy life, being a good person, trying to stay on the right path, raising a family. But all of a sudden he has to be attacked, not the heroin dealer, not the alleged rapist, just because they shut up? It makes absolutely zero sense to me.

Same goes for the others who joined in the rape. Wouldn't you try to find out who they were after it happened? Or would you still live around that scene suspicious that anyone around there might be one of the people abusing you? Why don't they get any backlash? They were just as guilty as Axl was, if the story is true. But no, let's all attack the guy who wasn't there at all, but makes a song about how it is not okay to abuse women more than 30 years later, because he is clearly the enemy. It makes zero sense.

You certainly would find out who did it. But you certainly wouldnt ask the victims mom to not press charges.

[BlueJean Baby]

I am curious exactly what she is putting in her book, this incident is basically a one page long story, not exactly enough for a whole book. 

I agree her obvious fury directed at Duff is odd. Numerous books have mentioned the rape charges, he said in his interview that Last September is a fictional story, I see nothing in it that directly points to her story. His recent comments though are odd, by any standards, knowing the band history. 

 

[killuridols]

31 minutes ago, Lio said:

Yeah, but I'm talking about this particular case. Why attack Duff when he isn't the perpetrator and wasn't even there? Even if he is a hypocrite (which I'm not saying he is), is that worse than being the perpetrator? Especially from Michelle's POV?

Duff was not the perpetrator but Michelle says that he was the one who went begging her mom to drop the charges 

That makes him guilty by association, he tried to cover up Axl & Slash asses, so that's another crime in its own .

35 minutes ago, Lio said:

Same goes for the others who joined in the rape. Wouldn't you try to find out who they were after it happened? Or would you still live around that scene suspicious that anyone around there might be one of the people abusing you? Why don't they get any backlash? They were just as guilty as Axl was, if the story is true. But no, let's all attack the guy who wasn't there at all, but makes a song about how it is not okay to abuse women more than 30 years later, because he is clearly the enemy. It makes zero sense.

It seems that Axl was the instigator of the gang rape, the one who threw her out naked, the one who impregnated her and was the most cruel to her. Surely the other people that participated have their share of responsability, but Michelle identifies Axl as the main person who hurt her.

We don't know what she did regarding those other men... At least, I'm not informed, so I won't pass judgement on that and assume stuff about her.

And I don't think it makes zero sense attacking Duff now. Because she is in this fan forum to tell her story where she directly accuses Axl of rape... so how is she not addressing the main guy in question? 

On the other hand Duff goes around acting like his band never abused a person, like they never wrote mysoginist lyrics and has the nerve to talk about Trump, as if he didn't had the same kind of dude in his own band.... Duff should shut the fuck up, for all I care.

[Georgina Arriaga]

20 minutes ago, BlueJean Baby said:

I am curious exactly what she is putting in her book, this incident is basically a one page long story, not exactly enough for a whole book. 

I agree her obvious fury directed at Duff is odd. Numerous books have mentioned the rape charges, he said in his interview that Last September is a fictional story, I see nothing in it that directly points to her story. His recent comments though are odd, by any standards, knowing the band history. 

 

In her comments in FB she tells that she was victim of another traumatic experience. Maybe in the book she mention that experience too.

I don't understand about the book too, a lawsuit would do the same, her testimony is in court and can make Axl at least responsible. 

[Latx]

Questions, comments. Someone please answer.

Izzy sold drugs, story was he was a low ball drug dealer. I read that on line years ago. 

Him being a pimp ?     Having  a teenaged gf Geffen needed him to part ways with or dealbreaker, huh?

I am not shocked by this bands past.      None of it.      I am not in the naive group.         Some things I knew because back then it was in the news like Izzy urinating on he plane  , but gosh, some stuff I never heard of like Izzy the pimp or with his teenaged  Remember back  way back when the sources for  info were the entertainment news shows on tv, newspapers, and monthly rock magazines.  So much about them was known back then and so much was not. News was not instant and unlike today, everyone was not a photographer or journalist like we all are today with our cell  phones.

LM, and I am not blaming in blaming or shaming victims.  Whatever happened was awful. No one knows of her. I mean by name and face of today  . None of these people are hardly looking up LM or are friends with her friends, know her whereabouts, travel in the same circles, etc. I mean this is not like you see some high school classmates or know their whereabouts: one is the mayor , etc. I mean it would be best for LM to peacefully not make herself known  .   Writing a book ...why call attention to herself. There will be nonlawsuit, investigation of some on line people talking about a closed case, charges dropped , no witnesses who will speak of secrecy meshing 35 or so years ago. What an awful  period in her life whatever happened.

Edited July 8, 2019 by Latx

[killuridols]

3 hours ago, Blackstar said:

So, the claim that Axl was in Indiana for weeks is disproved by the show dates, and, additionally, it doesn’t seem plausible at all that Axl would want to visit Indiana at that point, when the band had started to get interest from record labels.

Do you think there is a chance that Axl lied to Michelle about him going to Indiana? Maybe just for the sake of missing her out of sight?

[Blackstar]

9 minutes ago, killuridols said:

Do you think there is a chance that Axl lied to Michelle about him going to Indiana? Maybe just for the sake of missing her out of sight?

I guess it could be a possibility. But it's not that they had disappeared as a band, they played shows. If it happened in early December, as it seems logical going by the December version, the band had played a show in late November. If it happened in January, the band had also played a show a few days earlier, plus Axl bragged about them - including him - partying in the in-between time at the rehearsal space (it's very likely that the incident, whatever it was, happened during that heavy partying) which many people frequented, so someone should have seen him.

Edited July 8, 2019 by Blackstar

[DTJ80]

2 hours ago, killuridols said:

Have you ever heard about bad parenting?

I don't want to disrespect Michelle's mother but maybe she didn't know better at the time and it wouldn't be the first time a young girl is given too much freedom.

If you take a look at the personal history of most of the girls who hung with GN'R, they are pretty similar to the band members themselves. Girls coming from either broken homes or repressive environments, having unprotected sex resulting in unwanted pregnancies and subsequent abortions or miscarriages.... I mean, I wouldn't expect any of them to be from a much different background than the musicians.

I get that and life is full of bad parenting. But to knowingly allow your 15 year old to date someone of around 20 (based on comments throughout the thread) is absolutely terrible IMO.

This does not take away from the alleged incident at all. Just a comment on the parenting element of it.

[killuridols]

11 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

I guess it could be a possibility. But it's not that they had disappeared as a band, they played shows. If it happened in early December, as it seems logical going by the December version, the band had played a show in late November. If it happened in January, the band had also played a show a few days earlier, plus Axl bragged about them - including him - partying in the in-between time at the rehearsal space (it's very likely that the incident, whatever it was, happened during that heavy partying) which many people frequented, so someone should have seen him.

Yeah, but I'm not sure what's your point, about someone should have seen him?

[DTJ80]

One thing in all of this which is odd is Dizzys ‘involvement’ bearing in mind his apparent proximity of the incident to his almost 30 year stint in the band afterwards.

Some would say it calls into question him as a person for taking a job in the band knowing what had happened and others would say based on what he knew, he didn’t have any worries if he had a different opinion of said incident.

You could say he would be a more likely target of this as opposed to Duff who wasn’t even there (regardless of him visiting the house)?

Edited July 8, 2019 by DTJ80
Bad spelling....and expanded

[Blackstar]

1 hour ago, killuridols said:

Yeah, but I'm not sure what's your point, about someone should have seen him?

I mean one of their common friends or "friends" would have seen him and told her. She says her mother's boyfriend was working in one of the studios there.

Edited July 8, 2019 by Blackstar

[DTJ80]

10 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

I mean one of their common friends or "friends" should have seen him and told her. She says her mother's boyfriend was working in one of the studios there.

If you were the partner of someone who’s daughter had been assaulted, wouldn’t you think he would have done something about it? How could you go about your business each day knowing full well the abuser was just walking about the same building each day? I can’t get my head around that part.

[Blackstar]

4 minutes ago, DTJ80 said:

If you were the partner of someone who’s daughter had been assaulted, wouldn’t you think he would have done something about it? How could you go about your business each day knowing full well the abuser was just walking about the same building each day? I can’t get my head around that part.

Hmm, yeah. And even that he would have beaten the shit out of him right there on the spot - even if he didn't know what exactly had happened, the girl was there without her clothes. It wouldn't have been difficult, as most people there were passed out.