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Raz Cue - An Open Letter To Duff McKagan

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The reasoning along the lines of ”Raz loves Trump, Duff disses Trump so therefore Raz accuses Axl of rape” - is exactly what I’m talking about when I refer to flawed logic. Does that really sound like reasonable rationale to anyone ?

If Raz just wanted to go after Duff I’m sure he has heaps of ammo to do so, he doesn’t need to bring Axl into and burn those bridges & also need to pretend he made an error in his book (I mean if he is making it up now because mad about a Trump dis presumably you believe the original account in the book was the true one and he has pretended he made an error to make things fit). It seems quite some lengths to go to and a bit of self sabotage over someone dissing a politician.

The far more logical explanation is the one he has put forward - that he became aware of new information about an incident he was on the fringes of and his conscious has gnawed at him and he has come out in support of someone he feels has been wronged - and done so at personal expense in terms of friendships, reputation and having to admit to errors in his book. That can’t have been an easy step and on the errors he went into detail in explaining how they came about and his reasoning sounds plausible to me. Back to my original post this is why I said Duff should look to the actions Raz has taken if he wants to learn how to be a man as it takes a huge amount of fortitude and humility to take the steps he has and at personal sacrifice.

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5 hours ago, EricA said:

It's not about the money back then, it's about the money NOW. The first subtle instagram posts to tell "the truth" are from 2016, what a coincidence !? 

i don't know from what time the first FB posts "about it" are, cause i'm not a FB user.

and that's all I have to say here, this thread makes angry in so many ways.

The return of GN'R to the big scene made a lot of people from the past to come out and talk about them.

I don't know if you were around in 2015-2016 but I remember Marc Canter and the stripper girls talking for a documentary by UPROXX, Alan Niven in radio interviews, Doug Goldstein too, Vicky Hamilton with her book, Michelle Young attending shows, Erin Everly with her Instagram posts, Meegan Hodges back again with Slash.... I mean, it certainly was a moment of memories for all of them, not just the band.

Like Michelle said before, it angered her to see her story in those books painting her as a crazy partying girl. And the cherry of the pie was hearing Duff trying to rewrite history about who they were and how they treated women.

I don't know if today it would be so easy for her to get money from a lawsuit. The time that has passed is against her case and the witnesses she had will never testify against Axl.

All that she got now is to make her story known and its up to us, individually, to either believe her or not.

5 hours ago, DTJ80 said:

As a parent, I just can’t get my head around that a 15 year old would be allowed to hang about in this environment in the first place......full of junkies etc?

Have you ever heard about bad parenting?

I don't want to disrespect Michelle's mother but maybe she didn't know better at the time and it wouldn't be the first time a young girl is given too much freedom.

If you take a look at the personal history of most of the girls who hung with GN'R, they are pretty similar to the band members themselves. Girls coming from either broken homes or repressive environments, having unprotected sex resulting in unwanted pregnancies and subsequent abortions or miscarriages.... I mean, I wouldn't expect any of them to be from a much different background than the musicians.

2 hours ago, Lio said:

This times a hundred. Duff wasn't even there according to all accounts we have. But somehow he gets attacked on social media by Michelle and her supporters, and on here, because he made a metoo song :wow: What about Axl and Slash?

Duff gets attacked for being a hypocritical fuck... How is that so hard to understand? Neither Slash nor Axl have spoke with such hypocrisy about the #metoo movement like Duff did, but I'm sure if they were going to pose about that, they'd get a backlash as well.

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9 minutes ago, Lio said:

Yeah, but I'm talking about this particular case. Why attack Duff when he isn't the perpetrator and wasn't even there? Even if he is a hypocrite (which I'm not saying he is), is that worse than being the perpetrator? Especially from Michelle's POV?

So is it worse to say now that it's not okay to abuse women than to actually have done it?

As far as I know, Duff has never been accused of rape or abuse, and the last 2 decades or so he has led a healthy life, being a good person, trying to stay on the right path, raising a family. But all of a sudden he has to be attacked, not the heroin dealer, not the alleged rapist, just because they shut up? It makes absolutely zero sense to me.

Same goes for the others who joined in the rape. Wouldn't you try to find out who they were after it happened? Or would you still live around that scene suspicious that anyone around there might be one of the people abusing you? Why don't they get any backlash? They were just as guilty as Axl was, if the story is true. But no, let's all attack the guy who wasn't there at all, but makes a song about how it is not okay to abuse women more than 30 years later, because he is clearly the enemy. It makes zero sense.

You certainly would find out who did it. But you certainly wouldnt ask the victims mom to not press charges.

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I am curious exactly what she is putting in her book, this incident is basically a one page long story, not exactly enough for a whole book. 

I agree her obvious fury directed at Duff is odd. Numerous books have mentioned the rape charges, he said in his interview that Last September is a fictional story, I see nothing in it that directly points to her story. His recent comments though are odd, by any standards, knowing the band history. 

 

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31 minutes ago, Lio said:

Yeah, but I'm talking about this particular case. Why attack Duff when he isn't the perpetrator and wasn't even there? Even if he is a hypocrite (which I'm not saying he is), is that worse than being the perpetrator? Especially from Michelle's POV?

Duff was not the perpetrator but Michelle says that he was the one who went begging her mom to drop the charges :shrugs:

That makes him guilty by association, he tried to cover up Axl & Slash asses, so that's another crime in its own .

35 minutes ago, Lio said:

Same goes for the others who joined in the rape. Wouldn't you try to find out who they were after it happened? Or would you still live around that scene suspicious that anyone around there might be one of the people abusing you? Why don't they get any backlash? They were just as guilty as Axl was, if the story is true. But no, let's all attack the guy who wasn't there at all, but makes a song about how it is not okay to abuse women more than 30 years later, because he is clearly the enemy. It makes zero sense.

It seems that Axl was the instigator of the gang rape, the one who threw her out naked, the one who impregnated her and was the most cruel to her. Surely the other people that participated have their share of responsability, but Michelle identifies Axl as the main person who hurt her.

We don't know what she did regarding those other men... At least, I'm not informed, so I won't pass judgement on that and assume stuff about her.

And I don't think it makes zero sense attacking Duff now. Because she is in this fan forum to tell her story where she directly accuses Axl of rape... so how is she not addressing the main guy in question? :question:

On the other hand Duff goes around acting like his band never abused a person, like they never wrote mysoginist lyrics and has the nerve to talk about Trump, as if he didn't had the same kind of dude in his own band.... Duff should shut the fuck up, for all I care.

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20 minutes ago, BlueJean Baby said:

I am curious exactly what she is putting in her book, this incident is basically a one page long story, not exactly enough for a whole book. 

I agree her obvious fury directed at Duff is odd. Numerous books have mentioned the rape charges, he said in his interview that Last September is a fictional story, I see nothing in it that directly points to her story. His recent comments though are odd, by any standards, knowing the band history. 

 

In her comments in FB she tells that she was victim of another traumatic experience. Maybe in the book she mention that experience too.

I don't understand about the book too, a lawsuit would do the same, her testimony is in court and can make Axl at least responsible. 

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Posted (edited)

Questions, comments. Someone please answer.

Izzy sold drugs, story was he was a low ball drug dealer. I read that on line years ago. 

Him being a pimp ?     Having  a teenaged gf Geffen needed him to part ways with or dealbreaker, huh?

I am not shocked by this bands past.      None of it.      I am not in the naive group.         Some things I knew because back then it was in the news like Izzy urinating on he plane  , but gosh, some stuff I never heard of like Izzy the pimp or with his teenaged  Remember back  way back when the sources for  info were the entertainment news shows on tv, newspapers, and monthly rock magazines.  So much about them was known back then and so much was not. News was not instant and unlike today, everyone was not a photographer or journalist like we all are today with our cell  phones.

LM, and I am not blaming in blaming or shaming victims.  Whatever happened was awful. No one knows of her. I mean by name and face of today  . None of these people are hardly looking up LM or are friends with her friends, know her whereabouts, travel in the same circles, etc. I mean this is not like you see some high school classmates or know their whereabouts: one is the mayor , etc. I mean it would be best for LM to peacefully not make herself known  .   Writing a book ...why call attention to herself. There will be nonlawsuit, investigation of some on line people talking about a closed case, charges dropped , no witnesses who will speak of secrecy meshing 35 or so years ago. What an awful  period in her life whatever happened.

Edited by Latx

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3 hours ago, Blackstar said:

So, the claim that Axl was in Indiana for weeks is disproved by the show dates, and, additionally, it doesn’t seem plausible at all that Axl would want to visit Indiana at that point, when the band had started to get interest from record labels.

Do you think there is a chance that Axl lied to Michelle about him going to Indiana? Maybe just for the sake of missing her out of sight?

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, killuridols said:

Do you think there is a chance that Axl lied to Michelle about him going to Indiana? Maybe just for the sake of missing her out of sight?

I guess it could be a possibility. But it's not that they had disappeared as a band, they played shows. If it happened in early December, as it seems logical going by the December version, the band had played a show in late November. If it happened in January, the band had also played a show a few days earlier, plus Axl bragged about them - including him - partying in the in-between time at the rehearsal space (it's very likely that the incident, whatever it was, happened during that heavy partying) which many people frequented, so someone should have seen him.

Edited by Blackstar

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2 hours ago, killuridols said:

Have you ever heard about bad parenting?

I don't want to disrespect Michelle's mother but maybe she didn't know better at the time and it wouldn't be the first time a young girl is given too much freedom.

If you take a look at the personal history of most of the girls who hung with GN'R, they are pretty similar to the band members themselves. Girls coming from either broken homes or repressive environments, having unprotected sex resulting in unwanted pregnancies and subsequent abortions or miscarriages.... I mean, I wouldn't expect any of them to be from a much different background than the musicians.

I get that and life is full of bad parenting. But to knowingly allow your 15 year old to date someone of around 20 (based on comments throughout the thread) is absolutely terrible IMO.

This does not take away from the alleged incident at all. Just a comment on the parenting element of it.

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11 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

I guess it could be a possibility. But it's not that they had disappeared as a band, they played shows. If it happened in early December, as it seems logical going by the December version, the band had played a show in late November. If it happened in January, the band had also played a show a few days earlier, plus Axl bragged about them - including him - partying in the in-between time at the rehearsal space (it's very likely that the incident, whatever it was, happened during that heavy partying) which many people frequented, so someone should have seen him.

Yeah, but I'm not sure what's your point, about someone should have seen him?

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Posted (edited)

One thing in all of this which is odd is Dizzys ‘involvement’ bearing in mind his apparent proximity of the incident to his almost 30 year stint in the band afterwards.

Some would say it calls into question him as a person for taking a job in the band knowing what had happened and others would say based on what he knew, he didn’t have any worries if he had a different opinion of said incident.

You could say he would be a more likely target of this as opposed to Duff who wasn’t even there (regardless of him visiting the house)?

Edited by DTJ80
Bad spelling....and expanded

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, killuridols said:

Yeah, but I'm not sure what's your point, about someone should have seen him?

I mean one of their common friends or "friends" would have seen him and told her. She says her mother's boyfriend was working in one of the studios there.

Edited by Blackstar
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10 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

I mean one of their common friends or "friends" should have seen him and told her. She says her mother's boyfriend was working in one of the studios there.

If you were the partner of someone who’s daughter had been assaulted, wouldn’t you think he would have done something about it? How could you go about your business each day knowing full well the abuser was just walking about the same building each day? I can’t get my head around that part.

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31 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

Hmm, yeah. And even that he would have beaten the shit out of him right there on the spot - even if he didn't know what exactly had happened, the girl was there without her clothes. It wouldn't have been difficult, as most people there were passed out.

Exactly. You would have thought he would have went mental - most folk in that situation would. Weird.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Blackstar said:

I mean one of their common friends or "friends" should have seen him and told her. She says her mother's boyfriend was working in one of the studios there.

Who knows which was the dynamic of those "friendships" or the relationship she had with her mom's boyfriend... :shrugs:

People around the band would have not betrayed Axl. The men probably didn't give a fuck about the "psycho" girl and the women were probably competing against each other to be with him. It's hard for me to picture any kind of solidarity in that circle.

If one thing is clear to me, and this is not meant to doubt Michelle's story in its wholeness, is that she had a perception of those guys that was different from the one they had of her. By this I mean that she had feelings for Axl and expected things from him that he wasn't willing to give to her. When you read Axl's version of this story (and many other stories involving girls) it is always told from the mockery and the disdain. Not one ounce of love there, for any of them.

 

1 hour ago, DTJ80 said:

I get that and life is full of bad parenting. But to knowingly allow your 15 year old to date someone of around 20 (based on comments throughout the thread) is absolutely terrible IMO.

I know... but I've seen picture of Michelle's mom and her and it looks to me that her mom wasn't much older than her :unsure:

29 minutes ago, DTJ80 said:

Exactly. You would have thought he would have went mental - most folk in that situation would. Weird.

I dont think its weird. Actually, I think it is more common NOT to get involved than getting involved. Especially when it is not your child.

 

Edited by killuridols
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10 hours ago, Euchre said:

I feel there is some flawed logic going on in this thread or an desire by some to see through anything that could point to this being true - although given this is GNR forum I suppose it is hardly surprising that people don’t want an image they have built shattered.

What I mean by this is :

1) Raz has confirmed this is the Michelle that was regularly hanging around the studio and a friend of the band - yet some seem to be directing questions at her suggesting she prove she even knew the band

2) Raz has also confirmed that this is the girl the incident happened to & that she was 15 at the time. At the very least all parties quoted ie Michelle, Raz and GNR members themselves have said that she ends up naked in the alley. By any sane measure a 15 year old girl having her clothes ripped off by adult men and being thrown into the street is pretty disturbing. It doesn’t matter what the reason was, or whatever the girl did or didn’t do - doing this to a 15 year old is a low act and I’d be surprised if that alone wasn’t criminal. There is no justification for that sort of behaviour or reaction.

3) I’m not sure if this has been mentioned in the thread but there is definitely an Axl quote out there where he talks about ‘escorting people out of the Hell House and by escort I mean drag them down the alley naked’. I’m paraphrasing but someone I’m sure can find the exact quote. Up until now i had always assumed he was talking about grown men they beat up but now it takes on a really creepy tone and quite disturbing really. The quote makes it sound like he is bragging about it and he obviously neglects to mention that (if the allegations are true) he is referring to a 15 year old girl - so he is at least self aware enough to know how bad including that part would look.

4) Other girls have been mentioned in the thread with similar stories. Again I’m pretty sure there is an Erin Everly quote out from a court testimony there that sounds eerily similar about being tied up, assaulted and locked in a closet from memory. So the suggestions that this is out of character or a one off or an implausible story are really ignoring the similar stories that are out there - unless all these girls have banded together in some great conspiracy. Similarly the suggestions about motives - some have sought legal recourse some haven’t - so not all can be put down to a motive about money. So trying to assert that all these girls have made this up looking for a payday doesn’t hold. I’m well aware none of this proves Axl did anything, but all I’m saying is there are plenty of stories out there of him behaving in a pretty consistent manner so to make out this is completely implausable is to be wilfully ignoring other stories by unrelated people. There is the stairwell incident in Chicago as well that both Slash and Steve have confirmed as first hand witnesses.

5) The fact that Raz has come out with this also is reason to pause and consider. To use his own words after reading his book I thought the guy came off like an Axl kiss ass. He certainly doesn’t come across like he has an axe to grind. So for someone peripheral to the situation and at least impartial if not a GNR/Axl advocate to come out the way they have certainly must mean there is genuine belief in his mind that this is plausible.

6) All this talk of presumption of innocence as though it means Michelle can’t speak up. Correct me if I’m wrong - but is Axl in jail for this without trial ? If he isn’t then he is been granted the presumption of innocence & he is 100% entitled to it. It doesn’t extend to whether people can or can’t make allegations or whether people on a message board are free to form their own views as to the veracity of such claims. If it did no one could ever make an allegation and no one would be ever prosecuted for a crime. The evidentiary hurdle in a criminal trial is beyond reasonable doubt. In a civil trial it is balance of probabilities. Similarly presumption of innocence is in relation to criminal proceedings.

7) There seems to be a push by some to make Michelle seem like this crazy girl making up stories full of inconsistencies. I’m of the other view - she comes across quite rational and goes into great detail on things that I think would be hard to do if you weren’t actually there. (Ie describing layouts, people). I think it would be difficult to lie with that level of detail.

8) I wouldn’t expect other band members to speak up on it even if they did witness it. I’m pretty sure there is an Izzy quote where he talks about selling both drugs and girls and from memory Geffen made him break up with his underage girlfriend when they got signed. The point is more than likely a few of them would be in trouble is past actions started being brought up - and as much as they know about Axl, Axl would know about them. Let’s face it Slash and Duff are primarily motivated by money these days so they aren’t going to give up their golden goose. Same with Dizzy.

9) The last point I wanted to make is the same one I tried to make on my other post in this topic. No one can no for sure what happened in that room except for those that were there. I think most would agree that just the parts confirmed by all parties are pretty bad and would have caused huge emotional damage for Michelle. If the rest of it is true it is one of the worst possible crimes out there and would have been horrific for her. Now even if you think there is only a 1% chance of that part being true - do you want to run the risk of being the person ripping into someone that went through that. How are you going to feel if it turns out it’s true. Sure Michelle has come to a public forum, and a GNR one at that - but she clearly isn’t crazy and this can’t be immediately dismissed as the ravings of a deranged individual - so sure ask questions but I’d think for your own sake let alone hers to do it in a pretty respectful and balanced way.

I am so grateful for this post! I read this to my husband and by the end, I was crying. Thank you so much!! 

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26 minutes ago, DTJ80 said:

Exactly. You would have thought he would have went mental - most folk in that situation would. Weird.

I think Vince was beyond furious and did want to knock him out. However, he really wanted to get me out of there without any more trauma. 

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7 hours ago, Euchre said:

The reasoning along the lines of ”Raz loves Trump, Duff disses Trump so therefore Raz accuses Axl of rape” - is exactly what I’m talking about when I refer to flawed logic. Does that really sound like reasonable rationale to anyone ?

Of course it doesn't, hence why that is the exact kind of thing a Trump fan would do. You seriously give those people too much credit - have you ventured very far into the internet at any point in the last 3 years? These people sit and concoct unbelievably demented conspiracy theories to support and defend that orange twat, so a bit of backpeddling to accuse someone of rape is nothing.

I know that Raz doesn't give a damn about Michelle or any other rape/abuse victim - he takes this stance against Duff (not the rapist, but the guy who dissed Trump) because of one particular allegation against his bandmate, instead of Axl himself (the actual rapist).

If Raz is being genuine, why the hell does he support a guy like Trump, who has a lot more of these kinds of allegations against him than Axl does?

Any why would he end the open letter by blowing smoke up Trump's ass? How does that have anything to do with the incident? It's completely irrelevant, except for the fact that he's attacking Duff in the only/easiest way he can out of his blind love for Trump.

Having a knob like Raz on her side harms Michelle's credibility more than someone outright calling her a liar.

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6 minutes ago, Azifwekare said:

I know that Raz doesn't give a damn about Michelle or any other rape/abuse victim - he takes this stance against Duff (not the rapist, but the guy who dissed Trump) because of one particular allegation against his bandmate, instead of Axl himself (the actual rapist).

Axl has literally dozens of Twitter posts dissing Trump.... I'd say Axl is much more vehement in his rage against Trump than Duff is :shrugs:

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2 hours ago, killuridols said:
3 hours ago, DTJ80 said:

 

I know... but I've seen picture of Michelle's mom and her and it looks to me that her mom wasn't much older than her :unsure:

Where, on her FB?

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