action Posted October 11, 2019 Share Posted October 11, 2019 there are more urgent issues at hand, such as turkey invading syria, and feeing IS fighters. this is a massive event, this little war that erdogan started just now. there won't be much climate to save, when the world is at war wih each other Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted October 11, 2019 Share Posted October 11, 2019 3 minutes ago, action said: there are more urgent issues at hand, such as turkey invading syria, and feeing IS fighters. this is a massive event, this little war that erdogan started just now. there won't be much climate to save, when the world is at war wih each other You are running from goalpost to goalpost. You have claimed we can't possibly reverse the global warming because of physics, you have claimed there is not even a point in trying because we will all die anyway, and you now claim we have more urgent issues to take care of (like a continuation of a war in Syria that will likely cause much less than 100,000 deaths). It is REALLY hard to take you seriously Facts are that we can reverse it, our future extinction will likely not come as a result of global warming, and a realistic scenario of unchecked global warming is substantially worse than what is happening in Syria now. Not only that, one doesn't exclude the other. We can work at reducing global warming AND try to prevent wars and conflicts. I would even say we are obligated to do both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
action Posted October 11, 2019 Share Posted October 11, 2019 6 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: You are running from goalpost to goalpost. You have claimed we can't possibly reverse the global warming because of physics, you have claimed there is not even a point in trying because we will all die anyway, and you now claim we have more urgent issues to take care of (like a continuation of a war in Syria that will likely cause much less than 100,000 deaths). It is REALLY hard to take you seriously Facts are that we can reverse it, our future extinction will likely not come as a result of global warming, and a realistic scenario of unchecked global warming is substantially worse than what is happening in Syria now. Not only that, one doesn't exclude the other. We can work at reducing global warming AND try to prevent wars and conflicts. I would even say we are obligated to do both. this thread is about fascism isn't it? doesn't this include the fascism of environmental extremists and the fascism of erdogan? (just kidding) I guess what i'm trying to say is, good luck getting the world on the same page on the environment, when we're just on the eve of another massive war. there are lots of reasons why global warming can't be halted. these reasons include reasons of physics, the state of world affairs between nations and just people not giving a shit. this whole affair, really seems like a modern retake on the fairytale of the golden pot at the end of the rainbow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted October 11, 2019 Share Posted October 11, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, Graeme said: You might be spot on, but you have no right to have this opinion or share this information because you take flights for your work . Yet refraining from just one of those flights will have the second biggest positive impact one could make following absenteeism from cars, There is a lot on the devastating impact of plane travel on the environment online. It is funny how, in this instance, you can be facetious on the subject, yet in others (Trump's disregard of the problem) you are in earnest! Probably because you also are unwilling to refrain from plane travel and therefore another hypocrite, Edited October 11, 2019 by DieselDaisy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
action Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 10 hours ago, DieselDaisy said: Yet refraining from just one of those flights will have the second biggest positive impact one could make following absenteeism from cars, There is a lot on the devastating impact of plane travel on the environment online. It is funny how, in this instance, you can be facetious on the subject, yet in others (Trump's disregard of the problem) you are in earnest! Probably because you also are unwilling to refrain from plane travel and therefore another hypocrite, you might say that still taking planes is.... irresponsible and selfish? 18 hours ago, SoulMonster said: That irresponsible and selfish. And based on the flawed idea that we can't make changes and still enjoy ourselves, and the flawed idea that it is futile. (I couldn't erase the soon link on my phone, sorry.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 (edited) All you fuckin' patronizing climate change cunts, I'm probably the most fuckin' efficient person in that regard, I've hardly been nowhere in my life by plane, hardly been abroad, I ain't got a car at the moment, I don't take the bus, cant even ride a bike, never been on a boat that didn't have oars in my life (actually I've been on a speedboat once for 40 minutes) and I got no children, I'm doin' my fuckin' bit over here 15 hours ago, action said: what do you mean here is england? *looks around* fuck me, I thought I lived in belgium Oh right, cool. Just you say and phrase certain things like you're from England. Don't ask what and shit, I ain't been takin' notes Edited October 12, 2019 by Len Cnut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl's Agony Aunt Posted October 12, 2019 Author Share Posted October 12, 2019 20 hours ago, SoulMonster said: Hasn't BBC always been the voice of reason? I think it was more when I was young, but I wanted it to be more open then (music, culture, politics etc). Ironic, that now I'm older, and want more reason; more Mary Whitehouse than Katie Price; it's become a crazy revolutionary! Typical!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
action Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 1 hour ago, Len Cnut said: Oh right, cool. Just you say and phrase certain things like you're from England. Don't ask what and shit, I ain't been takin' notes well you sure got me curious now! yeah, i've been told that before. I think I've developed my own style during my time on internet forums. Stuff like "blimey", "nah" and "frowned upon" are some of the words I think are cool, but might be region specific for all I know. Sometimes, I even use neologisms, words that don't even exist, to make the confusion even bigger. I don't think you've ever heard my native talk in real life before. It's one of the smallest languages on earth, but ironically, it's us people who founded the united states. that's why you find funny street names in new york, and you hear names like "van den berg". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soon Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 1 hour ago, Len Cnut said: All you fuckin' patronizing climate change cunts, I'm probably the most fuckin' efficient person in that regard, I've hardly been nowhere in my life by plane, hardly been abroad, I ain't got a car at the moment, I don't take the bus, cant even ride a bike, never been on a boat that didn't have oars in my life (actually I've been on a speedboat once for 40 minutes) and I got no children, I'm doin' my fuckin' bit over here Len, fucking eco warrior. Hes ard and that innit! Its the people who dont care about climate change making all these lifestyle demands. Would be quite ironic if its role as propaganda werent so clear. Its the exact same model as anti health care in the US. They pretend that the pro health care people are suggesting that the current system should be suddenly burdened with new demands and then claim it would be an impossible scenario. "Its $10 000 for an annual check up, who's gonna pay for that?!" And no matter how many times you explain that there will be a new system were costs arent so high, they will just say "who's gonna pay the $10 000?!?!" Same here. Greta is after systems changes, Klein is after systems changes, XR is after system changes - but they just ignore facts and respond about how nothing will change within the current system based only on personal changes Which no one ever said and in fact everyone is saying otherwise. Im in your ball park of carbon foot print, Len. Speed boating sounds bad ass, though! Plus my childhood off grid and youth in the wild. If this world were fair at all, Id be the one with a climate cult comprised of teenagers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soon Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 Of course personal change can be valuable and I'm into it. But I mean no ones heard the half of it because its what works for me in my life and maybe wouldnt be suitable for others. But universal personal changes are coming and from that regard its down to whether if one needs the nanny state to reduce their beef consumption for them or if they can handle the responsibilities of liberty under their own authority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 18 hours ago, DieselDaisy said: Yet refraining from just one of those flights will have the second biggest positive impact one could make following absenteeism from cars, I couldn't reply sooner since I was....flying As to your claim that refraining from flying is the second biggest positive impact one could maket: Nope. There are a lot more things one can do than is included in those graphs of yours. Stop breathing is one of them. Not have pets another. Move to warmer climates another. That list just represents some of the main things we regularly do that results in carbon emissions. It is not a comprehensive list of efforts we could make to reduce our carbon emissions. 18 hours ago, DieselDaisy said: There is a lot on the devastating impact of plane travel on the environment online. It is funny how, in this instance, you can be facetious on the subject, yet in others (Trump's disregard of the problem) you are in earnest! Probably because you also are unwilling to refrain from plane travel and therefore another hypocrite, It actually hurts me to again point out that you are only a hypocrite if you preach one thing and do another. Aren't you a translator? You should know this. To drive the point home: I can't remember Graeme ever saying we should end all air flights. I certainly haven't. And this also ties in with the utterly moronic idea that if we care about global warming we should reduce our carbon footprints to zero, otherwise we are hypocrites Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 7 hours ago, action said: you might say that still taking planes is.... irresponsible and selfish? Not necessarily. We cannot stop flying altogether, that would give us a host of other problems. What is selfish and irresponsible, on the other hand, is not care about whether we fuck up for future generations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
action Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 1 minute ago, SoulMonster said: Not necessarily. We cannot stop flying altogether, that would give us a host of other problems. What is selfish and irresponsible, on the other hand, is not care about whether we fuck up for future generations. true, but the difference is that my selfishness only matters a blip in the scheme of things, while one single plane flight equals a lifetime of driving a car. I think the conclusion is quickly made in this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 Just now, action said: true, but the difference is that my selfishness only matters a blip in the scheme of things, while one single plane flight equals a lifetime of driving a car. I think the conclusion is quickly made in this one. Heh, I will let your hilarious exaggeration slide and just point out that it is not caring that will result in excess carbon emission. If you care, you try to limit it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvanG Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 (edited) 6 hours ago, action said: It's one of the smallest languages on earth, but ironically, it's us people who founded the united states. that's why you find funny street names in new york When I was there I saw Dutch names everywhere... it was almost like being at home... almost... Also, I don't think it's one of the ''smallest languages'' on earth... about 23 million people speak it as a first language, 5 million as a second and Afrikaans is a daughter language of Dutch. Edited October 12, 2019 by EvanG 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 Fundamentally it demonstrate a lack of genuineness among environmental nutters, who are willing to preach like idiots, disrupt city centres/working people and hector people on recyclables and veganism, yet are unwilling to compromise their own jet set lifestyles to the benefit of their (so-called) beliefs. It demonstrates that it is 99% a load of fake posturing. The majority of them are phoney. Fake. Disingenuous. 4 minutes ago, EvanG said: When I was there I saw Dutch names everywhere... it was almost like being at home... almost... Also, I don't think it's one of the ''smallest languages'' on earth... about 23 million people speak it as a first language, 5 million as a second and Afrikaans is a daughter language of Dutch. Don't even the Dutch speak English now? Maybe it was you who told me you have to say, ''do you speak Dutch'' in Dutch shops? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvanG Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 2 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said: Fundamentally it demonstrate a lack of genuineness among environmental nutters, who are willing to preach like idiots, disrupt city centres/working people and hector people on recyclables and veganism, yet are unwilling to compromise their own jet set lifestyles to the benefit of their (so-called) beliefs. It demonstrates that it is 99% a load of fake posturing. The majority of them are phoney. Fake. Disingenuous. Don't even the Dutch speak English now? Maybe it was you who told me you have to say, ''do you speak Dutch'' in Dutch shops? It's hard to find someone who doesn't speak it more or less fluently, but that's not only here... in most western countries everyone speaks English rather well. I probably referred to Amsterdam, where there is so much tourism, people assume you are a tourist and don't speak Dutch. It's terrible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 16 minutes ago, EvanG said: Also, I don't think it's one of the ''smallest languages'' on earth... about 23 million people speak it as a first language, 5 million as a second and Afrikaans is a daughter language of Dutch. Yeah, I thought about commenting on that. Just consider all the miniscule languages found on Papa Ny Guinea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 6 minutes ago, EvanG said: It's hard to find someone who doesn't speak it more or less fluently, but that's not only here... in most western countries everyone speaks English rather well. I probably referred to Amsterdam, where there is so much tourism, people assume you are a tourist and don't speak Dutch. It's terrible. Isn't Dutch just German spoken by long-haired stoners? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvanG Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 2 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said: Isn't Dutch just German spoken by long-haired stoners? No. But that's probably a good description of what the Dutch call the dialect I speak (which I consider my first language, I didn't start speaking Dutch until I went to school and they forced it on me.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 Just now, EvanG said: No. But that's probably a good description of what the Dutch call the dialect I speak (which I consider my first language, I didn't start speaking Dutch until I went to school and they forced it on me.) I once wrote an essay on a similar process which occurred in France in the mid 19th century through centralised educational reforms, the question being ''what came first, France or Frenchness?''. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvanG Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, DieselDaisy said: I once wrote an essay on a similar process which occurred in France in the mid 19th century through centralised educational reforms, the question being ''what came first, France or Frenchness?''. I speak Limburgish, a dialect, officially a regional language, spoken by Dutch, Belgian and German people. It's mainly a mixture of Dutch and German, with even a few French words in it. But every town has its own version of Limburgish. Five kms from where I grew up, some words can already be different, so there are basically hundreds of different Limburgish dialects. Edited October 12, 2019 by EvanG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 27 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said: Fundamentally it demonstrate a lack of genuineness among environmental nutters You got it wrong, of course. The majority of people concerned about global warming and willing to reduce their own carbon emissions are normal people. They have already replaced their fossil fuel car with one running on electricity (or will the next time they buy a new car), they bike more or use bus to work, they have already started eating less eat, they have shifted political allegiance to greener parties. This is happening right now. I would also be wiling to bet that the majority demonstrating in whatever rally that so upsets you, are genuinely concerned and have cut their carbon emissions much more than average people, despite the fact that some of them use smartphones I basically lend no credence to any of your hysterical exaggerations and the fact that you so gullibly fall for the right-wing tabloids representations of the movement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 5 minutes ago, EvanG said: I speak Limburgish, a dialect, officially a regional language, spoken by Dutch, Belgian and German people. It's mainly a mixture of Dutch and German, with even a few French words in it. But every town has its own version of Limburgish. Five kms from where I grew up, some words can already already be different, so there are basically hundreds of different Limburgish dialects. The entire low countries is a mosaic, where two big sprachen (French and German) collide, so it seemingly has produced a mosaic of variants of the two, not that those two are uniform. Belgium is essentially an artificial country, Walloons and Flemish plonked together, set up by the British after Waterloo to act as a geo-politico buffer 3 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: You got it wrong, of course. The majority of people concerned about global warming and willing to reduce their own carbon emissions are normal people. They have already replaced their fossil fuel car with one running on electricity (or will the next time they buy a new car), they bike more or use bus to work, they have already started eating less eat, they have shifted political allegiance to greener parties. This is happening right now. I would also be wiling to bet that the majority demonstrating in whatever rally that so upsets you, are genuinely concerned and have cut their carbon emissions much more than average people, despite the fact that some of them use smartphones I basically lend no credence to any of your hysterical exaggerations and the fact that you so gullibly fall for the right-wing tabloids representations of the movement. I suppose we'll just have to disagree, but yes I do find you hypocritical. I can safely say that if I shared Greta-like beliefs to any passionate degree, I would cut - if not eliminate -air travel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 2 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said: I suppose we'll just have to disagree, but yes I do find you hypocritical. I can safely say that if I shared Greta-like beliefs to any passionate degree, I would cut - if not eliminate -air travel. I would only be a hypocrite if I had ever said we should reduce air travel to zero. Which I haven't. How can you not get this? As for sharing Greta-like beliefs. I don't know if I do. I honestly have never read what she proposes. What I do believe is that human activity results in global warming and I find this scary. Well, that is actually proven so not really in the realm of something I merely believe. And then, naturally, I think we should reduce carbon emissions to try to halt or revert this global warming because we are really just borrowing Earth for future generations, but not to the moronic point where we immediately end all air travel That's in the realm of "let's stop exhaling carbon dioxide immediately!" idiocy. The most important thing is still to cut down industrial carbon emissions and create awareness among individuals so we can all do a little. We cannot expect a real change without people actually wanting to change. So we need to work on awareness first (and that's where Greta does such a great job). And this works, people are changing. Then, if this isn't sufficient, politicians will have to enforce stricter regulations that forces more effective change, including higher fees on air travel (and hopefully investments in carbon fixation, less polluting means of transportation, etc). But of course all of this is too complex and deep for you to grasp. And you would cut air travel? Wow, what a sacrifice. I am sure airliners pee in their pants from the mere thought of losing all of that business Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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