Date of Welcome to the Jungle video debut on MTV

[Izzy_Jive]

Hi everybody.

As many of you may know, Guns N' Roses lore mentions that Appetite started rolling when, following Tom Zutaut's direct request to David Geffen, the Welcome To The Jungle video got to be "aired only one time around 5:00AM on a Sunday morning." (soure Wikipedia, Tom King, The Operator: David Geffen Builds, Buys, and Sells the New Hollywood, p. 430, Broadway Books (New York 2001).

Now, according to IMDB, the WTTJ video was released on monday september 28th 1987, so the to-be-disclosed sunday could be sunday september 27th 1987 but, if it were true, it would conflict with Tom Zutaut's statement that "the band threw a party while awaiting the early-hours broadcast. While the musicians and friends indulged in their rock’n’roll excesses of choice, Tom Zutaut bought “bucketloads” of cookies and milk for some sustenance. “Before the video comes on, maybe like 11 at night, there’s a knock on the door and it’s the LA Country Sheriffs,” Zutaut recalled."
Why does it conflict? Because on september 27th 1987 the band was already in, or on a flight to, Hamburg, Germany for the first show - september 29th 1987 - of the European leg of the Appetite for Destruction Tour, with Faster Pussycat opening.
I know that tecnhically the band could have flown to Europe in the afternoon of september 27th and landed in Germany on september 28th for 1 good night of sleep before starting the tour the next evening, so I have to check that one thing as well.

Coulkd it be another sunday though?

• September 21st, the band was in LA fresh off the Cult tour;
• October 11th, the band was in LA fresh off the European tour;
• November 29th, the band was in LA fresh off the Mötley Crüe tour;

I'm just curious that such an important event in the ascent of GNR to stardom doesn't have a set date on it.

[Swedish]

This is a great topic, hope that someone has more info on this! @SoulMonster?

[SoulMonster]

6 minutes ago, youngswedishvinyl said:

This is a great topic, hope that someone has more info on this! @SoulMonster?

Afraid not. Maybe @Blackstar? 

[MaskingApathy]

8 hours ago, Izzy_Jive said:

Coulkd it be another sunday though?

Just another Sunday

[UsedYourIllusion]

I'm thinking the 21st of September makes more sense, Zutaut may be mixing his dates up. 

[lame ass security]

2 hours ago, MaskingApathy said:

Just another Sunday

I was thinking the same thing when I read that.😊

[Old_school_gnr_fan]

11 hours ago, Izzy_Jive said:

Hi everybody.

As many of you may know, Guns N' Roses lore mentions that Appetite started rolling when, following Tom Zutaut's direct request to David Geffen, the Welcome To The Jungle video got to be "aired only one time around 5:00AM on a Sunday morning." (soure Wikipedia, Tom King, The Operator: David Geffen Builds, Buys, and Sells the New Hollywood, p. 430, Broadway Books (New York 2001).

Now, according to IMDB, the WTTJ video was released on monday september 28th 1987, so the to-be-disclosed sunday could be sunday september 27th 1987 but, if it were true, it would conflict with Tom Zutaut's statement that "the band threw a party while awaiting the early-hours broadcast. While the musicians and friends indulged in their rock’n’roll excesses of choice, Tom Zutaut bought “bucketloads” of cookies and milk for some sustenance. “Before the video comes on, maybe like 11 at night, there’s a knock on the door and it’s the LA Country Sheriffs,” Zutaut recalled."
Why does it conflict? Because on september 27th 1987 the band was already in, or on a flight to, Hamburg, Germany for the first show - september 29th 1987 - of the European leg of the Appetite for Destruction Tour, with Faster Pussycat opening.
I know that tecnhically the band could have flown to Europe in the afternoon of september 27th and landed in Germany on september 28th for 1 good night of sleep before starting the tour the next evening, so I have to check that one thing as well.

Coulkd it be another sunday though?

• September 21st, the band was in LA fresh off the Cult tour;
• October 11th, the band was in LA fresh off the European tour;
• November 29th, the band was in LA fresh off the Mötley Crüe tour;

I'm just curious that such an important event in the ascent of GNR to stardom doesn't have a set date on it.

It was the video for WTTJ that prompted me to by the Appetite album. I can vividly recall buying the album on October 10, 1987, because I was at the mall looking for the album, and also looking for a gift for my mom, whose birthday is October 12th.

So it was probably a week or two earlier that the WTTJ video debuted (sometime late September).

 

[Draguns]

The video that started my Bad Obsession (pun intended) of GNR in October 1987.

[dontdamnmeuyi2015]

I remember we didn't have cable at the time, but my uncle would record the Headbanger's ball every Saturday night and we would watch it on Sunday's after dinner. My mom freaked out the first time she saw the video. At first seeing them and Axl's hair was like WTF? My uncle was like wait the song is really cool!  The rest as they say is history because they became my mom's favorite band and changed the course of rock music forever!

Yeah, it was on during the night sometime. The HB would begin at midnight and go on until 3. I guess WTTJ must have come on around 2 a.m. or so.

[GNRfanMILO]

I'm sorry for the old bump, but was this ever clarified?

[Bitchisback]

On 7/19/2019 at 7:09 PM, Old_school_gnr_fan said:

It was the video for WTTJ that prompted me to by the Appetite album. I can vividly recall buying the album on October 10, 1987, because I was at the mall looking for the album, and also looking for a gift for my mom, whose birthday is October 12th.

So it was probably a week or two earlier that the WTTJ video debuted (sometime late September).

 

My 4th birthday lol

[Shackler's]

Shouldn't MTV have some kinda info on this?

[GnR*]

Last days of july 1987. 

It say in a old famous rock magazine (Hard Force, hors-serie). In august, it was in the favorites videos.

Also found info without precise date here : (apetite box LN'L )

[SoulMonster]

3 hours ago, GnR* said:

Last days of july 1987. 

It say in a old famous rock magazine (Hard Force, hors-serie). In august, it was in the favorites videos.

When is that Hard Force issue from? We have a few Hard Force issue sin our collection but would love a scan of articles we don't have: https://www.a-4-d.com/t2861-interview-and-article-index

[Blackstar]

7 hours ago, GnR* said:

It say in a old famous rock magazine (Hard Force, hors-serie). In august, it was in the favorites videos.

3 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

When is that Hard Force issue from? We have a few Hard Force issue sin our collection but would love a scan of articles we don't have: https://www.a-4-d.com/t2861-interview-and-article-index

Was it this one, @GnR* ? I see it was a retrospective special issue released in 1994:

https://metal-limited.com/produit/hard-force-hors-serie-guns-n-roses-1994/

We're also missing this one from October 1987

https://hardforce.com/magazine/85/hard-force-magazine-n-11-s1

where probably this interview was originally published

https://www.a-4-d.com/t3951-1987-06-dd-unknown-french-publication-guns-n-roses-axl-slash-izzy-duff-steven

[GnR*]

Hey Soul and Black

Yeah it s that one, 1994 Hard Force.

I used to know owners by phone , postmail. Lamet ' brothers, very cool persons, so bad the french rock "bible" stoped cause no more money .

I've re-read the apetite 's book (LN'L) and it say on the last page :

Music Videos:

1.welcome to the jungle

Directed by Nigel Dick

Shot August 1-2,1987 at Park Plaza and 450 s.La brea, Hollywood,ca

Best new artist in a video- 1988 mtv video music awards.

So it come online at mtv around Last august and begin of september i guess , no?

[GnR*]

8 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

When is that Hard Force issue from? We have a few Hard Force issue sin our collection but would love a scan of articles we don't have: https://www.a-4-d.com/t2861-interview-and-article-index

You need the all magazine to be scaned?

 

[SoulMonster]

1 hour ago, GnR* said:

You need the all magazine to be scaned?

 

If you could scan the article and send us that would be awesome. You can send it to admin[at]a-4-d.com. Thanks!!!

Edited May 30, 2020 by SoulMonster

[GnR*]

i am scanning z all magazine with my phone

 

 

....done  https://www.a-4-d.com/t4986-gnr-french-magazine-1994-hard-force-hors-serie#19192

Edited June 4, 2020 by GnR*

[Blackstar]

On 7/19/2019 at 3:04 PM, Izzy_Jive said:

Hi everybody.

As many of you may know, Guns N' Roses lore mentions that Appetite started rolling when, following Tom Zutaut's direct request to David Geffen, the Welcome To The Jungle video got to be "aired only one time around 5:00AM on a Sunday morning." (soure Wikipedia, Tom King, The Operator: David Geffen Builds, Buys, and Sells the New Hollywood, p. 430, Broadway Books (New York 2001).

Now, according to IMDB, the WTTJ video was released on monday september 28th 1987, so the to-be-disclosed sunday could be sunday september 27th 1987 but, if it were true, it would conflict with Tom Zutaut's statement that "the band threw a party while awaiting the early-hours broadcast. While the musicians and friends indulged in their rock’n’roll excesses of choice, Tom Zutaut bought “bucketloads” of cookies and milk for some sustenance. “Before the video comes on, maybe like 11 at night, there’s a knock on the door and it’s the LA Country Sheriffs,” Zutaut recalled."
Why does it conflict? Because on september 27th 1987 the band was already in, or on a flight to, Hamburg, Germany for the first show - september 29th 1987 - of the European leg of the Appetite for Destruction Tour, with Faster Pussycat opening.
I know that tecnhically the band could have flown to Europe in the afternoon of september 27th and landed in Germany on september 28th for 1 good night of sleep before starting the tour the next evening, so I have to check that one thing as well.

Coulkd it be another sunday though?

• September 21st, the band was in LA fresh off the Cult tour;
• October 11th, the band was in LA fresh off the European tour;
• November 29th, the band was in LA fresh off the Mötley Crüe tour;

I'm just curious that such an important event in the ascent of GNR to stardom doesn't have a set date on it.

I'm bumping this now because I've looked it up.

WTTJ was in Billboard's Sept. 9, 1987 listing of new video clips (so it didn't become available on Sept. 28, but earlier):

https://worldradiohistory.com/hd2/IDX-Business/Music/Billboard-Index/IDX/1987/1987-09-12-Billboard-Page-0083.pdf

BUT: the fact that the video was released (=became available for broadcast) on a certain date, doesn't mean that it was aired on MTV on that same date or close to it. In fact, as per Tom Zutaut, band members, Doug Goldstein etc., some time passed until MTV aired it. 

MTV's CEO, Tom Freston, confirmed Zutaut's story in this article from 1991:

According to MTV's Freston, Geffen Records founder David Geffen personally called him to urge the network to play a video by a new band named Guns N' Roses. The network, stung by viewer allegations that MTV was playing too much heavy-metal rock, initially passed on the band's premiere video, titled "Welcome to the Jungle."

After much prodding and pressure, the network played "Welcome to the Jungle' in the early morning. Response was so overwhelming that the clip eventually made it to prime time, where reaction became explosive. MTV helped make Guns N' Roses one of the biggest rock 'n' roll acts in the world.

https://greensboro.com/10-years-of-mtv-music-television-cable-network-put-its-label-on-music-of-the/article_0cff721c-1e5c-5dd9-a578-2979f1c4f1f4.html

Later Freston clarified that David Geffen's phone call was not about first airing the video, but about moving it to regular rotation. According to Freston and Tom Hunter (VP of MTV programming at the time), the video was first aired on Headbangers Ball:

TOM HUNTER: When they submitted “Welcome to the Jungle,” we accepted it for Headbangers Ball , which was typically what we’d do with a video that extreme. Axl was twitching in an electric chair!

EDDIE ROSENBLATT (Geffen VP): Geffen Records had sold a couple hundred thousand albums and MTV still wouldn’t play the video. I sent my weekly sales report on the album to Lee Masters, and I got on the phone and made him read it with me.

TOM FRESTON: The programming group decided to put “Welcome to the Jungle” on Headbangers Ball for starters. Not in regular rotation. It was getting played a couple of times a week. David Geffen called me and said, “Every time you guys play this thing at 3 A.M. , our sales light up. Please leave it on.” Normally, I would never tell the programming guys what to put into rotation. But this was David Geffen.

JOHN CANNELLI (MTV senior VP): There was controversy over how much to play “Welcome to the Jungle.” Our GM, Lee Masters, thought we were playing too much hard rock. Lee and Tom Hunter, the guys with radio backgrounds, were afraid of the video. Tom got some pressure from Geffen, so we put it on the overnights, and all of a sudden we started getting requests. Then we played it in the afternoon, and from there it went through the roof. And I became GNR’s guy at the network. We did one of Axl’s first MTV interviews at my apartment in Chelsea.

TOM HUNTER: Freston called me and said we had to play “Welcome to the Jungle” in regular rotation. I said, “Have you seen the video?” He said, “One of the pieces of advice I got from Pittman was: When David Geffen calls, pay attention. And Geffen called me.” [...] If we added it into regular rotation, we’d get shit from other managers and labels whose hard rock videos we wouldn’t play. So I handwrote it into the programming log—that way, the add wouldn’t appear in trade magazines. I gave it two plays a day in regular rotation. It got an amazing number of calls right out of the box.

[Source: I Want My MTV; The Uncensored Story of the Music Video Revolution, 2011]

*

At that time, Headbangers Ball was broadcast once a week at 00:00-2:00 am (and maybe the episodes were being re-aired one more time during the week).

The WTTJ video was played in the band interview on Headbangers Ball (with the staged trashing of the set) on October 24, 1987. From the interview it sounds like that could have been the first time it was played, but probably, going by Zutaut's story about the party, it had been played a couple of times before . It was also mentioned during the interview that they had problems getting the video on TV and Axl said that they had to edit out some of the news footage in it. Later (April 1988) Slash would say something similar

In an interview on December 26, 1987, Axl commented that the video was getting very little airplay.

*

Billboard published MTV's programming every week, listing the videos that were on various regular rotation rates (heavy, medium etc.) and the new additions for each week. WTTJ didn't appear there until the second week of January 1988, when it was listed in the new adds (which means that it would be played, at most, seven times a week):

The next week it was moved to "breakout rotation" (which was a category for "potential hits" and meant three plays per 24 hours maximum for four weeks, and then it would be "evaluated" for moving to another category).

Then on February 10 it was moved to "medium rotation" meaning also a maximum of three plays a day.

In late February the "medium rotation" category was absorbed by the "buzz bin" category, so WWTJ moved there. 

I didn't look further.

*

TL;DR: The video was released (=made available for airplay) around September 12, 1987. It wasn't on MTV's rotation (either light, medium or heavy) until the second week of January 1988. Before that, it had been played only on Headbangers Ball - probably starting from sometime in October - which means that it was played twice a week at most (supposing it was played on every Headbanger episode, which is unlikely), so it got very little airplay on MTV.

Then it seems that after pressure from Eddie Rosenblatt MTV added it to its regular rotation in January 1988, but still it was played during the night. And then David Geffen called them personally and they moved it to regular hours airplay.

EDIT: So probably Zutaut is referring to the first time it was aired on Headbangers Ball (i.e. sometime in October 1987). However, the rest of his story doesn't match with the dates above, since it took more than two months for the video to be put on regular rotation.

Edited January 28, 2021 by Blackstar

[Blackstar]

Okay, according to this Headbangers Ball fan site

https://www.headbangersballunofficialtributesite.com/episode-database

WTTJ was first aired on Headbangers Ball on September 5, 1987, so right upon its release - the Billboard issue listing it as a new release covered the week of 5-12 September 1987.

Then it was played on most subsequent Headbangers Ball shows, so until early 1988 it was played on MTV about twice a week.

So it looks like the question is answered: first airing September 5, 1987, regular rotation in early January 1988 (or late December '87, as MTV's CEO says he first put it on rotation "unofficially".

 

[DTV88]

2 hours ago, Blackstar said:

Okay, according to this Headbangers Ball fan site

https://www.headbangersballunofficialtributesite.com/episode-database

WTTJ was first aired on Headbangers Ball on September 5, 1987, so right upon its release - the Billboard issue listing it as a new release covered the week of 5-12 September 1987.

Then it was played on most subsequent Headbangers Ball shows, so until early 1988 it was played on MTV about twice a week.

So it looks like the question is answered: first airing September 5, 1987, regular rotation in early January 1988 (or late December '87, as MTV's CEO says he first put it on rotation "unofficially".

 

That sounds right. I think it was a Memorial Day weekend and I was going to be away with the family, so I taped the Headbanger's Ball. I remember that after the first time I watched it I brought it over to a buddy's house so he could see it too.