SoulMonster Posted August 10, 2019 Share Posted August 10, 2019 (edited) 43 minutes ago, Chewbacca said: That's how dumb you sound by claiming you've determined causation by looking at numbers on wikipedia. All the studies are referenced: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate It is not like Wikipedia generates the data themselves And that less guns leads to less gun violence is pretty much selv-evident. Whether gun laws succeed at resulting in less violence then comes down to the nature of said laws. Edited August 10, 2019 by SoulMonster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewbacca Posted August 10, 2019 Share Posted August 10, 2019 3 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: Except that they didn't. At first they dropped, but then they increased. So obviously Brazil has got some problems But in the end they increased and much, so your point is moot and yes, we got problems here. Is that supposed to be an argument? If your logic is that gun control didn't work on Brazil because of "problems", how come you're certain the same "problems" won't happen in the USA? It is exactly these problems that are the cause to be explored on studies, not wikipedia pages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted August 10, 2019 Share Posted August 10, 2019 35 minutes ago, Chewbacca said: Obviously you have no experience on the field. Experience in deciding when a developing fetus is deserving of human rights? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewbacca Posted August 10, 2019 Share Posted August 10, 2019 4 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: All the studies are referenced: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate It is not like Wikipedia generates the data themselves And that less guns leads to less gun violence is pretty much selv-evident. Whether gun laws succeed at resulting in less violence then comes down to the nature of said laws. They're referenced only, but they don't look at it deeply and in the end of the day you were only citing numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted August 10, 2019 Share Posted August 10, 2019 38 minutes ago, Chewbacca said: Please enlighten me why a 20 week premature canadian baby was considered human enough to live and a third trimester fetus can be considered nonhuman? Huh? Do you want me to justify differences in abortion laws? If anything, differences support my statement that this comes down to a philosophical perspective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted August 10, 2019 Share Posted August 10, 2019 13 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: My PhD isn't in developmental biology though, but genetics. Dr. Soul has a certain swing to it You’re Dr Soulie from now forth! It does sound cool as fuck actually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted August 10, 2019 Share Posted August 10, 2019 40 minutes ago, Chewbacca said: I was asking what gives you the moral ground to tell what is a human and what is an "undesirable growth"? Do I need some kind of permission to have an opinion on what is deserving of being entitled to human rights, really? Just like you are allowed to have your opinion, and I wouldn't care to question that right, so do I. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace Nova Posted August 10, 2019 Share Posted August 10, 2019 (edited) 10 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: All the studies are referenced: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate It is not like Wikipedia generates the data themselves And that less guns leads to less gun violence is pretty much selv-evident. Whether gun laws succeed at resulting in less violence then comes down to the nature of said laws. Have you looked at those numbers at all? They are all over the place and do not show causation. A country like Italy has around 12 guns per 100 and a gun death rate of 0.5 while a country like Honduras has around the same amount of guns and death rate of over 60. Edited August 10, 2019 by Kasanova King Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted August 10, 2019 Share Posted August 10, 2019 42 minutes ago, Chewbacca said: Sm still calls living human fetuses "undesirable growths". That's a saint for sure. Except that I didn't I referred to a fetus that is being aborted as an "undesirable growth". Whereas those that aren't, and are allowed to develop into human beings, are likely to be desired or less undesired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted August 10, 2019 Share Posted August 10, 2019 11 minutes ago, Chewbacca said: But in the end they increased and much, so your point is moot and yes, we got problems here. Is that supposed to be an argument? If your logic is that gun control didn't work on Brazil because of "problems", how come you're certain the same "problems" won't happen in the USA? Because USA is more like Europe and I am convinced gun laws work here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted August 10, 2019 Share Posted August 10, 2019 10 minutes ago, Chewbacca said: They're referenced only, but they don't look at it deeply and in the end of the day you were only citing numbers. I see no reason not to trust them. Such wikipedia pages, with controversial content, tend to strictly moderated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewbacca Posted August 10, 2019 Share Posted August 10, 2019 (edited) 19 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: Experience in deciding when a developing fetus is deserving of human rights? No, it is looking at a tiny human that was born many weeks before it was supposed to be born pull it thru and live a normal and even greet you in the street 3,5 years laters. That's when you see actually see fetuses are people and have the right to live and to be born. 16 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: Huh? Do you want me to justify differences in abortion laws? If anything, differences support my statement that this comes down to a philosophical perspective. So we are murdering humans based on philosphical perspective now? Even though we have scientific evidence that highly premature babies can survive and live? The parents don't want the responsibility, that's some deep philosophical stuff right there. 14 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: Do I need some kind of permission to have an opinion on what is deserving of being entitled to human rights, really? Just like you are allowed to have your opinion, and I wouldn't care to question that right, so do I. When it comes to killing someone, yes. It is something that goes above personal opinion. Specially for us, doctors, the ones pulling the trigger. It doesn't mean much to you probably because you never had to face this responsibility. Edited August 10, 2019 by Chewbacca Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted August 10, 2019 Share Posted August 10, 2019 5 minutes ago, Kasanova King said: Have you looked at those numbers at all? They are all over the place and do not show causation. I have never claimed they indicate causation. At best they indicate correlation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewbacca Posted August 10, 2019 Share Posted August 10, 2019 5 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: I see no reason not to trust them. Such wikipedia pages, with controversial content, tend to strictly moderated. Kasanova answered that for ya. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace Nova Posted August 10, 2019 Share Posted August 10, 2019 Just now, SoulMonster said: I have never claimed they indicate causation. At best they indicate correlation. They don’t even show correlation tbh. I’m at work but from first glance they are all over the place. They seem to be more directly linked to crime levels than anything else. I’ll take a closer look when I get home later today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted August 10, 2019 Share Posted August 10, 2019 Just now, Chewbacca said: No, it is looking at a tiny human that was born many weeks before it was supposed to be born pull it thru and live a normal and even greet you in the street 3,5 years laters. That's when you see actually see fetuses are people and have the right to live and to be born. Heh. In the future we will be able to develop zygotes into babies outside of the body. And take almost any somatic cell and induce it to develop into humans. This potential is, in my opinion, not sufficient to either give them human rights protection nor status as independent human beings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted August 10, 2019 Share Posted August 10, 2019 3 minutes ago, Chewbacca said: So we are murdering humans based on philosphical perspective now? No, we are applying philosophy, guided by science and religion, to decide when a developing fetus is deserving of protection, and then we try to avoid terminating fetuses after this date of gestation. Then abortion is not murder to anyone but those who disagree with our decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewbacca Posted August 10, 2019 Share Posted August 10, 2019 3 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: Heh. In the future we will be able to develop zygotes into babies outside of the body. And take almost any somatic cell and induce it to develop into humans. This potential is, in my opinion, not sufficient to either give them human rights protection nor status as independent human beings. The potential for life is not enough? Damn! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted August 10, 2019 Share Posted August 10, 2019 6 minutes ago, Chewbacca said: When it comes to killing someone, yes. It is something that goes above personal opinion. Specially for us, doctors, the ones pulling. It doesn't mean much to you probably because you never had to face this responsibility. Of course it is a different situation for the two of us. But for all you know I could have been involved in the desicion to abort or not abort. Anyway, citizens can decide to rely on whatever abortion laws exist in their country (and thus out-source the decision to the politicians and whatever experts that have been involved) or make up their own mind. 7 minutes ago, Kasanova King said: They don’t even show correlation tbh. I’m at work but from first glance they are all over the place. They seem to be more directly linked to crime levels than anything else. I’ll take a closer look when I get home later today. Uhm, wouldn't it be really weird if they weren't directly linked to crime levels? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted August 10, 2019 Share Posted August 10, 2019 4 minutes ago, Chewbacca said: The potential for life is not enough? Damn! Every sperm is sacred! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewbacca Posted August 10, 2019 Share Posted August 10, 2019 11 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said: So you're athiest then? I'm surprised if that's the case. Then I would say the rationality of your opinion on the matter has been influenced by religion and/or is being clouded by the trauma and emotion of that surgery you describe - which is understandable but is still a too-specific example that doesn't make you right or an authority. I am sorry for your experience and what happened it's very unfortunate and sad. Yes, I am against late term abortion, isn't everyone? I think it's okay to abort in the first...4 weeks or so? And only later if it's to save the mother basically. If a fetus is going to be aborted then it is literally an undesired growth. Abortion should be taken seriously but not because of religious babble or misconceptions that an undeveloped fetus is a human. That would be jumping the gun. Would you call flour a cake? Yes, atheist. It was not a specific surgery that happens quite a lot here, and in the world TBH. Everytime the baby defends itself, as expected. If your definition of a fetus to be aborted is a fetus that will die, won't be able to live a decent life, poses a treat to the mother among others, then yes, I agree with you, let's abort and spare the child and parents from further suffering. If you're talking about a healthy fetus, that will be born and live, but the parents simply decided to shun it, then no, it is murder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace Nova Posted August 10, 2019 Share Posted August 10, 2019 4 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: Of course it is a different situation for the two of us. But for all you know I could have been involved in the desicion to abort or not abort. Anyway, citizens can decide to rely on whatever abortion laws exist in their country (and thus out-source the decision to the politicians and whatever experts that have been involved) or make up their own mind. Uhm, wouldn't it be really weird if they weren't directly linked to crime levels? So how would not reducing crime reduce gun violence? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewbacca Posted August 10, 2019 Share Posted August 10, 2019 8 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: Of course it is a different situation for the two of us. But for all you know I could have been involved in the desicion to abort or not abort. But you're not, which I think makes you biased. If more people saw what happens in there, I have a feeling more people would be pro-life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted August 10, 2019 Share Posted August 10, 2019 6 minutes ago, Kasanova King said: So how would not reducing crime reduce gun violence? Have I ever said it wouldn't? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted August 10, 2019 Share Posted August 10, 2019 5 minutes ago, Chewbacca said: But you're not, which I think makes you biased. If more people saw what happens in there, I have a feeling more people would be pro-life. I am not what? Aren't we all biased? You certainly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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