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Who was/is a "member" of Guns N' Roses and who is/was a hired hand?

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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, shotsfired cro said:

uhhuh!? uhm...NO! I am really, really sorry but NO! 

Richard Fortus has 0 stage presence or charisma.  I am glad you met him and Frank and they came out as great guys, but I meet 30 people every day that are great but that doesn't make them elegable to play in Guns N Roses.

Richard Fortus, no offense, looks like a character who escaped from Angry Birds.  

He is a hired hand and as such you can not compare him to Iz/Gilb/Matt/Adler, who were band members.   Those guys were totally other league from Fortus and Frank.

Don't need to go back through history, just check out some of the last shows of the UYI line up, Buenos Aires 16/7/93, 17/7/93, Saskatoon '93...You think in their best dream Frank and Fortus could pull that off?  LOL!

The only reason Fortus and Frank are there cause Fortus is probably even cheaper to have than Gilby.

Gilby probably had even more charisma than Iz.

I had probably never seen guys with less stage presence or charisma than F & F in any band that made it through.

Ok. Matt and Gilby were hired members of the band, exactly the same as Frank, Richard, Melissa or anyone else.

Also, I said bring nice has nothing to do with being good, but these guys were nice and definitely pulled their weight. I don't take anything away from Matt or Gilby. I loved what they did, but they were not equal members of GNR. 100% not equal. 

As for charisma, maybe you just don't know what it looks like? but it doesn't need to be obvious for it still to be there. I don't think you'd admit they had any, even if I made a point you agreed with so we can move on. For me no charisma musicians are the ones who sit at the back of the stage reading charts with their glasses on, no movement, and no engagement with the audience. Boring. No member of GNR past or present could ever be accused of a total lack of charisma, even Paul Tobias had some... Some 😜

Edited by Tom2112
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37 minutes ago, Tom2112 said:

Ok. Matt and Gilby were hired members of the band, exactly the same as Frank, Richard, Melissa or anyone else.

Yes, this is true:

Gilby: I have no contract with Geffen but a contract with the band (Guns N' Roses). It's the same thing with Dizzy and Matt (Sorum, drums) who also has been contracted by the three original members of Guns N' Roses. Axl, Slash and Duff is what remains of Guns N' Roses and the rest of us is just hired members. They have a hundred dollars and we ask "can we also have a hundred dollars?" and they give us a hundred dollars when they feel like it (laughs). [Heavy Mental, June 1994]

Gilby: The most important thing is that Guns N' Roses won't ever, ever go away. Guns N' Roses is pretty much Axl, Slash and Duff. It's what and when they decide to make an album, the rest of us have to work around that album. Some of the members will change over the years. But as long as Axl, Slash and Duff want to make a record together, it'll continue. [Orange County Register, November 1994]

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34 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

Yes, this is true:

Gilby: I have no contract with Geffen but a contract with the band (Guns N' Roses). It's the same thing with Dizzy and Matt (Sorum, drums) who also has been contracted by the three original members of Guns N' Roses. Axl, Slash and Duff is what remains of Guns N' Roses and the rest of us is just hired members. They have a hundred dollars and we ask "can we also have a hundred dollars?" and they give us a hundred dollars when they feel like it (laughs). [Heavy Mental, June 1994]

Gilby: The most important thing is that Guns N' Roses won't ever, ever go away. Guns N' Roses is pretty much Axl, Slash and Duff. It's what and when they decide to make an album, the rest of us have to work around that album. Some of the members will change over the years. But as long as Axl, Slash and Duff want to make a record together, it'll continue. [Orange County Register, November 1994]

You sure that last quote is from November 1994? Pretty sure Gilby was out of the band by that point.

The funny thing that, nowadays, Gilby says that “everyone knew” by the end of the UYI tour that it was all over. So much for “GnR will never, ever go away”!

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, rocknroll41 said:

You sure that last quote is from November 1994? Pretty sure Gilby was out of the band by that point.

The funny thing that, nowadays, Gilby says that “everyone knew” by the end of the UYI tour that it was all over. So much for “GnR will never, ever go away”!

Yes, the interview was published in November, but it was conducted earlier (in September). Gilby's status was unclear, as he wasn't officially fired. He probably realised he was out of the band when SFTD was recorded without him. 

In interviews until October/November he was talking as still being in GnR, but towards the end he was saying that he might leave. And when it was officially announced he was out of the band, he had made it sound as if he had quit himself and not that he had been fired.

Edited by Blackstar
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On 16. 08. 2019. at 3:09 AM, Gibsonfender2323 said:

Quit the crack.  

Matt and Gilby were hired members.. No GNR fan actually cared that Gilby got fired.   You can not compare a band who is on drugs and boozed out of their mind to a band that actually knows what they are doing. the last shows of the UYI tour were very bloated and the band was in bad  shape physically and mentally 

 

Fortus is there because Slash and Axl/Duff want him  to be there. Slash even tried to steal 4tus from Axl in 2010 when he was playing in Thin Lizzy. Frank is there because Axl, Slash and Duff want him to be there.

 

 

hahahahahahahahahaha...

 

if you belive what you write - YOU are on fuckin crack or some other serious shit!

not sure what it is, but it is seriously damaging.

worst concert of that era is 50% better than best concert of this era.  if you think this line up can pull out a show like Buenos Aires '93, Chicago '92, Paris '92, Saskatoon '93....you are deaf or delusional.

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On 16. 08. 2019. at 9:23 PM, Tom2112 said:

Ok. Matt and Gilby were hired members of the band, exactly the same as Frank, Richard, Melissa or anyone else.

Also, I said bring nice has nothing to do with being good, but these guys were nice and definitely pulled their weight. I don't take anything away from Matt or Gilby. I loved what they did, but they were not equal members of GNR. 100% not equal. 

As for charisma, maybe you just don't know what it looks like? but it doesn't need to be obvious for it still to be there. I don't think you'd admit they had any, even if I made a point you agreed with so we can move on. For me no charisma musicians are the ones who sit at the back of the stage reading charts with their glasses on, no movement, and no engagement with the audience. Boring. No member of GNR past or present could ever be accused of a total lack of charisma, even Paul Tobias had some... Some 😜

Sorry but no.  Frank, Fartus, Mel, Bucketfoot, Absha, Tobias, Finck, Bumblehead... totally NO charisma type of musicians.

Charisma doesn't have anything to do with seating or standing, sunglasses or not, it is something you either have or don't. You were born with it or didn't.

As for Matt and Gilby - no.

Matt and Gilby were not hired musicians (not in that sense).  They were full time members and as such labeled by Axl in the interviews.  They were also on GNR pinball machine and on public merch and logos - unlike Fartus, Frank, Mel or any other post '93 line up.

Only once they were gonne with the others did Axl turn the story around and begun the story 'additional musicians!'.

Anyone thinking Matt and Gilby were 'hired hands' - was not around in the day or does not have full information.

As for Duff and Slash likeing Fartus and Frank - one doesn't like either, the other doesn't like one of those 2.  Either way, Slash and Duff hanging out with Matt and Gilby and not really interacting with Fartus and Frnak speaks volumes I won't go into.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, shotsfired cro said:

Sorry but no.  Frank, Fartus, Mel, Bucketfoot, Absha, Tobias, Finck, Bumblehead... totally NO charisma type of musicians.

Charisma doesn't have anything to do with seating or standing, sunglasses or not, it is something you either have or don't. You were born with it or didn't.

As for Matt and Gilby - no.

Matt and Gilby were not hired musicians (not in that sense).  They were full time members and as such labeled by Axl in the interviews.  They were also on GNR pinball machine and on public merch and logos - unlike Fartus, Frank, Mel or any other post '93 line up.

Only once they were gonne with the others did Axl turn the story around and begun the story 'additional musicians!'.

Anyone thinking Matt and Gilby were 'hired hands' - was not around in the day or does not have full information.

As for Duff and Slash likeing Fartus and Frank - one doesn't like either, the other doesn't like one of those 2.  Either way, Slash and Duff hanging out with Matt and Gilby and not really interacting with Fartus and Frnak speaks volumes I won't go into.

I dont understand.  so you are saying that Gilby and Matt were given shares of GNR and were equal members as Axl, Duff and Slash?  I dont believe Dizzy is an owner, so he would be a hired hand.  

I would think you are either a partner in the band/ brand which would make you an employer (slash, axl, duff) or an employee aka hired hand.  cant imagine Gilby would be given partnership seeing he joined right before they were going on tour.  I could see if he wrote a few songs with them or appeared on a non live album with original music

 

maybe your definition of a hired hand would be like Teddy Zig Zag and the horn girls?  in that case I would tend to agree with you.  but I would think you can be a full time member and still be an employee- much like I work full time for my employer.  so I'd consider myself a hired hand even though I work for my company full time. 

maybe I'm wrong?  please explain

Edited by Chester 524

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57 minutes ago, Chester 524 said:

I dont understand.  so you are saying that Gilby and Matt were given shares of GNR and were equal members as Axl, Duff and Slash?  I dont believe Dizzy is an owner, so he would be a hired hand.  

I would think you are either a partner in the band/ brand which would make you an employer (slash, axl, duff) or an employee aka hired hand.  cant imagine Gilby would be given partnership seeing he joined right before they were going on tour.  I could see if he wrote a few songs with them or appeared on a non live album with original music

 

maybe your definition of a hired hand would be like Teddy Zig Zag and the horn girls?  in that case I would tend to agree with you.  but I would think you can be a full time member and still be an employee- much like I work full time for my employer.  so I'd consider myself a hired hand even though I work for my company full time. 

maybe I'm wrong?  please explain

I am saying that until Axl took his favorite fromhimself and fired everyone else, he considered the band to be a full fledged band.

The 6 members of the band that played '91-'93 were considered as 'band members' not hired hands.

Do post '93 members appear on any official merch?  No.  Did Matt/Gilby/Dizzy appear on official merch and logos - oh yes.

Has Axl reffered to them as full time members before Live Era - oh yes.

This may be new to the fans post '93, but yes, that was a band.  What shares they had?  Nobody knows.  Hell nt even Slash/Ax/Duff have equal shares nor did they buy equal amount of Izzy's partnership, but that is something else.

Point is, those guys were considered by the rest of the band as members.  Those guys for 3 years made Saskatoon, Buenos Aires, Paris, Rio, Chicago, Oklahoma - standard quality shows - after them, went all to shit.

No PRO shot today sounds/looks 50% of any of those shows.  Rio, Apollo...you name it.

Finally,  many years ago Gilby spoke about his status in GNR, saying anyone thinking he was an additional member or hired hand is hugely mistaken.  Linear notes about him and Matt in Live Era came to them as huge surprise.   Let's say Gilby knows what he is talking about and there is a reason he appeared on HoF with Slash/Duff/Matt/Adler.

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34 minutes ago, shotsfired cro said:

I am saying that until Axl took his favorite fromhimself and fired everyone else, he considered the band to be a full fledged band.

The 6 members of the band that played '91-'93 were considered as 'band members' not hired hands.

Do post '93 members appear on any official merch?  No.  Did Matt/Gilby/Dizzy appear on official merch and logos - oh yes.

Has Axl reffered to them as full time members before Live Era - oh yes.

This may be new to the fans post '93, but yes, that was a band.  What shares they had?  Nobody knows.  Hell nt even Slash/Ax/Duff have equal shares nor did they buy equal amount of Izzy's partnership, but that is something else.

Point is, those guys were considered by the rest of the band as members.  Those guys for 3 years made Saskatoon, Buenos Aires, Paris, Rio, Chicago, Oklahoma - standard quality shows - after them, went all to shit.

No PRO shot today sounds/looks 50% of any of those shows.  Rio, Apollo...you name it.

Finally,  many years ago Gilby spoke about his status in GNR, saying anyone thinking he was an additional member or hired hand is hugely mistaken.  Linear notes about him and Matt in Live Era came to them as huge surprise.   Let's say Gilby knows what he is talking about and there is a reason he appeared on HoF with Slash/Duff/Matt/Adler.

I can see your point. but technically Gilby was at the RRHOF because Duff called him the night before (and he wasnt inducted)https://sleazeroxx.com/gilby-clarke-says-not-being-inducted-into-rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame-with-guns-n-roses-was-a-bummer/.  but I see your point as to the members considering Gby as a member due to the invitation. 

I think we have different definitions of hired hand, but there's no need to knit pick.  doesnt really matter 

 

one thing odd is that the 2012 GNR calendar has pics of Axl, duff and Slash... and one of Bumblefoot

 

2013 calendar has a few pics of Fortus.  so post 93 members have technically been on merch.  but certainly not as much as the AFD5 have been for sure

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DEL: Is [Gilby] a "member" of Guns N' Roses?

AXL: This "member" thing is quite interesting, I read in an interview where Matt [Sorum, drummer] said that if he didn't get made a member, he wasn't going to be in Guns N' Roses. The truth of the matter is, Matt's a member of GN'R, but it doesn't really mean anything. It's kind of like a clubhouse/gang thing. We're all members of this gang. What it boils down to is, whose yard is the tree house in? Matt's a member of GN'R, and his opinions are taken into consideration. As far as that's concerned, Gilby is a member too, Dizzy is a member of the band. With all the background singers, horn players, keyboardists - we look at it like we're all Guns N' Roses. But the bottom line is, the business is basically run by Slash and myself. Then we run whatever it is we're discussing by Duff and see if he's cool with it. Guns N' Roses is basically Slash, Duff, Doug Goldstein and myself, but there's a lot of other people involved that are a part of our lives and a part of our family.

DEL: Do you think Matt's gonna be pissed when he reads this?

AXL: It would be nice if he wasn't. I love everybody in this band. It's kicking ass and feels really warm and really cool onstage. At this point it's the 12 of us that get onstage and f?!king go all out.

http://www.a-4-d.com/t545-1992-09-10-11-dd-rip-i-axl

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6 hours ago, shotsfired cro said:

Sorry but no.  Frank, Fartus, Mel, Bucketfoot, Absha, Tobias, Finck, Bumblehead... totally NO charisma type of musicians.

Charisma doesn't have anything to do with seating or standing, sunglasses or not, it is something you either have or don't. You were born with it or didn't.

As for Matt and Gilby - no.

Matt and Gilby were not hired musicians (not in that sense).  They were full time members and as such labeled by Axl in the interviews.  They were also on GNR pinball machine and on public merch and logos - unlike Fartus, Frank, Mel or any other post '93 line up.

Only once they were gonne with the others did Axl turn the story around and begun the story 'additional musicians!'.

Anyone thinking Matt and Gilby were 'hired hands' - was not around in the day or does not have full information.

As for Duff and Slash likeing Fartus and Frank - one doesn't like either, the other doesn't like one of those 2.  Either way, Slash and Duff hanging out with Matt and Gilby and not really interacting with Fartus and Frnak speaks volumes I won't go into.

Nope. They abso-fucking-lutely were hired hands. They were 'in the band' but they were not equal members. You are clearly the one without all the information. Matt did join the band, and they spoke of him as a member, but he was under a contract, on a salary just like the current and past members of GNR. He was not on equal wages to Duff Slash and Axl. Dizzy isn't either, and he's a member of the band. 

As for everything else, I think we're talking about completely different things, so we'll agree to disagree 😃

 

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As @Blackstar's pointed out, they were all considered band members by Axl, including accessory members in 1992 (horn players, Teddy Zigzag, etc). But when it came to decisions it was up to Axl, Slash and Duff (they had the legal governance) in consultation with Doug Goldstein. 

Slash was also asked about whether Dizzy and Matt were "fully-fledged members of the band" and his answer is interesting:

Slash: "I wouldn’t go as far as to say that about Dizzy. He hasn’t been with us long enough. Matt, I would call a fully-fledged member, cos he is the foundation that we play off, and he came into a very heavy situation and fitted in right away. […] Dizzy’s more - and Axl might disagree with me here - but Dizzy’s an old friend, somebody that we’ve known for a long time, since Guns started, and he was the kind of player that Axl wanted. His style was what Axl wanted for the piano stuff.

But I wouldn’t call him a full-fledged member yet because he hasn’t been on the road with us long enough - although when we played Rio he really pulled it off... So he is a member of the band, and though he hasn’t been fully initiated yet he’s been great
[Kerrang! July 27, 1991].

This indicates that to Slash, at least, it came more down to a classical sense of what a band is, and they needed a certain tenure or standing to be considered proper band members. Whereas to Axl it was more like a project where everybody on stage were members of GN'R but that of course band decisions came down to the three partners.

Despite this, in the tour program for 1992 [Use Your Illusion Tour program, 1992], the band was listed as being comprised of Axl, Slash, Duff, Matt, Gilby and Dizzy, while Andreadis, Maxwell, Worall, King, Amos and Freeman were listed separately, suggesting that it was a six-piece band.

In early 1993, Gilby would also be said to have been "accepted as a full member of the band" "appearing in all the band's subsequent videos" [Hartford Courant, March 4, 1992]. And in March 1994 when asked if GN'R now was a six-piece band, Slash confirmed [Q Magazine, March 1994]. So maybe reality wasn't as inclusive as Axl would have it.

In 1994, Gilby would reveal that he was contracted to the band, not to Geffen, and that he and Dizzy and Matt are hired hands:

Gilby: "I have no contract with Geffen but a contract with the band (Guns N' Roses). It's the same thing with Dizzy and Matt who also has been contracted by the three original members of Guns N' Roses. […] Axl, Slash and Duff is what remains of Guns N' Roses and the rest of us is just hired members" [Heavy Mental, June 1994].

So the band were the six of them (with additional musicians in 1992), but they were not equal with Axl, Slash and Duff being perpetual partners and diving any revenues between them, and Gilby, Matt and Dizzy being on (likely) temporary contracts where compensation was defined (likely some kind of retainer/salary with bonuses).

Gilby would also shed light on the governance hierarchy between Axl, Duff and Slash (although these quotes are from a period where he was realizing he wouldn't have his contract renewed and where Axl had rejected both his own solo material but also the music he and Slash had been working on:

Gilby: "Axl and Slash call most of the shots. The rest of us just kinda go with the flow. You just never know, cos it's not our call. You're relying on Axl, and he changes his mind quite a bit" [Kerrang! May 14, 1994].

Gilby: "[…] Axl is of course the leader and after that comes Slash" [Heavy Mental, June 1994].

Gilby: "I’m really a small part of Guns N’ Roses. G N’ R is really the vision of Axl Rose, Slash and Duff. I’m there to complement them" [The Boston Globe, July 22, 1994].

And this joke from Axl is worth mentioning:

Axl: "Did you hear about Gilby getting asked - the talent scouts found him in some biker bar. Gilby was in a biker bar, and they were like, “You guys would be great for extras in the Guns N’ Roses video.” And he was like, “I think I already got asked about that”" [The Making of Estranged, April 26, 1994]

 

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Ok. Hopefully traffic will get rerouted here.  My turn : after Izzy sold his rights it was AS&D with hired hands and I'd say the same is probably true once again. 

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The real question is: are Slash and Duff now equal partners again, or are they themselves just hired hands?

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Just now, Azifwekare said:

The real question is: are Slash and Duff now equal partners again, or are they themselves just hired hands?

I would say equal partners again,  but Axl calls the final shot.  I know we can't quote people from the new album thread now..   But there was quite a bit of evidence it was the Big Three then as well.. with hired hands.  

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You have this same discussion in a 5 page thread from 3 months ago, here.

 

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4 minutes ago, GNRfanMILO said:

You have this same discussion in a 5 page thread from 3 months ago, here.

 

Mainly started this because of the links to interviews ox Axl and Slash talking about Gilby, Matt, and Dizzy bei ng members ir not in the new album speculation thread. Not for Axl and Duff. Literally the last 2 or 3 pages of it

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Axl, Slash, Izzy, Duff, Steven, Matt, Dizzy are who i consider to be official members.

All those guys provided contributions to original material when i still consider the band to be "Guns N' Roses"

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13 minutes ago, -W.A.R- said:

Axl, Slash, Izzy, Duff, Steven, Matt, Dizzy are who i consider to be official members.

All those guys provided contributions to original material when i still consider the band to be "Guns N' Roses"

Dizzy and Matt, to my knowledge, didn't have any writing credits on the songs they recorded on UYI, no? And they were hired to be in the band? NuGNR members contributed to original material under the name Guns N' Roses. Fortus is in the same boat as Dizzy and Matt 😂 recorded on original material but no writing credits. 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Pskihq92 said:

Dizzy and Matt, to my knowledge, didn't have any writing credits on the songs they recorded on UYI, no? And they were hired to be in the band? NuGNR members contributed to original material under the name Guns N' Roses. Fortus is in the same boat as Dizzy and Matt 😂 recorded on original material but no writing credits. 

No but i respect their contributions enough to include them. Dizzy is admittedly on the edge for me as far as contributions go but i figure hes put up with Axl's shit long enough :lol: While i respect Bucket, Finck, Brain, etc and think they are very talented, NuGuns was just too much overturn to be considered the same band. Plus they never really established themselves as a band - they were gone by the time CD came out.

Edited by -W.A.R-

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7 minutes ago, -W.A.R- said:

No but i respect their contributions enough to include them. Dizzy is admittedly on that cusp for me as far as contributions go but i figure hes put up with Axl's shit long enough :lol: While i respect Bucket, Finck, Brain, etc and think they are very talented, NuGuns was just too much overturn to be considered the same band. Plus they never really established themselves as a band - they were gone by the time CD came out.

No but it was still Gun's N Roses

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