Who was/is a "member" of Guns N' Roses and who is/was a hired hand?

[31illusions]

11 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

The AFD lineup consisted of five members that they were equal partners (at least legally).

For the most part, yes. Technically it was Axl 25% Slash 20% Duff 20% Izzy 20% Steven 15% as far as song writing credits and percentage earned on sales.

[Blackstar]

5 minutes ago, 31illusions said:

For the most part, yes. Technically it was Axl 25% Slash 20% Duff 20% Izzy 20% Steven 15% as far as song writing credits and percentage earned on sales.

Yes, those were the percentages for songwriting credits/publishing rights. But as far as percentage earned on sales, it was 20% each.

[shotsfired cro]

12 hours ago, Tom2112 said:

Nope. They abso-fucking-lutely were hired hands. They were 'in the band' but they were not equal members. You are clearly the one without all the information. Matt did join the band, and they spoke of him as a member, but he was under a contract, on a salary just like the current and past members of GNR. He was not on equal wages to Duff Slash and Axl. Dizzy isn't either, and he's a member of the band. 

As for everything else, I think we're talking about completely different things, so we'll agree to disagree 😃

 

Of course not.  Matt came in on a request from one of the world's top bands at that time, he was not found on the street like Ferrer or the revolving door Axl had since Matt.   You don't get guys from your competition for 15k a month.

Now before telling someone he lacks information, please don't write such stupidities as the contract part.

Sure he had a contract, so do Axl, Slash, Duff...., that doesn't make them a hired hand.  Every club sized band that ever recorded an album has a members contracts.

You obviously are mixing up terms and definitions.

Hired hands are people who are hired by the band to play parts without core band ever considering them as members'.  They are there to play parts, tour but they are not visible on merch, logos, videos etc.

Like rhytham guitar in Bon Jovi, like the guy who plays rhythm in Green Day last 20 years....

As for business part.  I am glad you read carefully because not once did I say in any post a word of shares or money terms.

Go back and read what I said.  One of the things I said was 'I am not going into shares, for not even Axl, Slash, Duff have equal shares'.  'That is something only they know'.

I was talking about how they viewed Gilby/Matt/Dizzy compared to the others.  That in 1991-93 we had a 'BAND' and that reflected on the quality of the playing where as now - it sounds like Slash and Duff playing with a fuckin cover band.

Slash pretty openly said what he thought of Frank and pretty vaguely answered the question on Fortus.

Edited August 18, 2019 by shotsfired cro

[31illusions]

36 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

Yes, those were the percentages for songwriting credits/publishing rights. But as far as percentage earned on sales, it was 20% each.

I'm not sure where you got that? In Steven's book, Steven reduced himself to 15% of royalties. Which means money based on each item sold and song writing credits. Steven sued GN'R to have his royalties reinstated and won.

https://gnrcentral.com/2018/09/24/25-years-ago-today-guns-n-roses-settles-steven-adler-lawsuit/

[Blackstar]

16 minutes ago, 31illusions said:

I'm not sure where you got that? In Steven's book, Steven reduced himself to 15% of royalties. Which means money based on each item sold and song writing credits. Steven sued GN'R to have his royalties reinstated and won.

https://gnrcentral.com/2018/09/24/25-years-ago-today-guns-n-roses-settles-steven-adler-lawsuit/

It was in the 1992 partnership contract:

(d)  The Partners shall divide all Net Old Record Profits as follows: twenty percent (20%) to Axl, twenty percent (20%) to Slash, twenty percent (20%) to Duff, twenty percent (20%) to Steven Adler, and twenty percent (20%) to Izzy Stradlin. As used herein, “Net Old Record Profits” shall mean Net Old Record Revenues (hereinafter defined) less Costs. As used herein, “Net Old Record Revenues” shall mean income earned by the Partnership or any of the Partners in respect of all phonorecords recorded by the Group prior to the recording of the Illusion LPs, including, without limitation, the Old Records.

http://www.a-4-d.com/t3745-1992-10-dd-guns-n-roses-partnership-contract-memorandum-of-agreement

By "Old Records" they meant AFD and Lies.

I believe these percentages still stand today as far as sales of AFD and Lies go. The publishing rights are a different matter.

As for the Adler lawsuit, what Steven said is not quite accurate. The reason he won (actually it wasn't a ruling by a judge or jury, but a settlement the band was dragged into) was mainly that there wasn't an attorney present on his behalf when he signed the "probation contract" and that the band didn't buy out his share after they fired him.

It's all in this thread:

See also the related chapters here:

http://www.a-4-d.com/t3967p90-the-history-of-guns-n-roses-in-their-own-words#14914

http://www.a-4-d.com/t3967p120-the-history-of-guns-n-roses-in-their-own-words#14916

http://www.a-4-d.com/t3967p120-the-history-of-guns-n-roses-in-their-own-words#14943

http://www.a-4-d.com/t3967p150-the-history-of-guns-n-roses-in-their-own-words#14961

http://www.a-4-d.com/t3967p210-the-history-of-guns-n-roses-in-their-own-words#15226

Edited August 18, 2019 by Blackstar

[31illusions]

@Blackstar Kudos for your research in the aforementioned thread. I don't have the inclination or the time to do it myself. I'll take your word for it.

[Towelie]

Guns N Roses members 1987-1993:

Axl Rose, Slash, Duff McKagen, Izzy Stradlin, Steven Adler, Matt Sorum, Dizzy Reed.

Hired hand: Gilby Clarke, Teddy ZigZag etc

 

Guns N Roses members post 1993-2019:

Axl Rose

Hired hand: everyone else

Edited August 18, 2019 by Towelie

[Flake]

Izzy was a hired hand.

[acor]

Members-AFD5

Hired hands-other peasants.

 

This is clear to me.

 

[Sosso]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Guns_N'_Roses_members

[jamillos]

Yeah, it was the original AfD 5, they were all members, even though there definitely must have been certain role distribution, like now (Axl + Slash, then Duff...). 

Anyway, I know for sure that when Axl was asking Slash "What do you wanna play, huh?" in the Saskatoon 93 video, and poor Matt attempted to play Locomotive several times, he was completely ignored, cause the boss wasn’t really asking him in the first place... 

Edited August 19, 2019 by jamillos

[RONIN]

Cover band since 1992. 

"They’re a different type of band – and I use the word band loosely. It’s a guy and some other guys." - James Hetfield 

[Flake]

1 hour ago, RONIN said:

Cover band since 1992. 

 

That is so stupid, it's actually pretty funny.

[soon]

I figure they've always been so tedious about defining members because they didnt want any reference to the business realities. They wanted to keep it street. But now that they've dropped that pretence it would behove them to cast people as "additional musicians" and "back line support" because that way they have a wider pool of merchandizing. See first you release action figures of everyone. Then you can go onto special editions like "3 and 3/4 inch Additional Musicians Series" and "6 inch Teddy and the Gals Best Buy Exclusive"

[zombux]

11 hours ago, jamillos said:

Yeah, it was the original AfD 5, they were all members, even though there definitely must have been certain role distribution, like now (Axl + Slash, then Duff...). 

Anyway, I know for sure that when Axl was asking Slash "What do you wanna play, huh?" in the Saskatoon 93 video, and poor Matt attempted to play Locomotive several times, he was completely ignored, cause the boss wasn’t really asking him in the first place... 

that was kinda sad. similarly to one UYI show, where Duff started playing bass intro to Coma, but Axl said something like "no way, only if YOU can sing it".

[Amaya]

My opinion.                                            Axl, Slash, Duff , Izzy, Steven  WERE Guns N Roses. They formed and founded the company. These 5 created AFD which launched them all to be where they are today.  Today they are doing their own thing as middle aged, rich men.  These 5 men made Lies,  and  maybe some parts, even minimal  ,of UYIs  .                Steven was fired from the company and took the company  to court for him to secure his financial future and he was right to do that. Izzy left the company and took a buy out.                    The Big 3 own various parts  and percentages of the company.. I am not a business person . I don't know how that business works. Everyone else  is a hired , contractural, temorary, seasonal, and paid employee to AxlSlashDuff.            The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame or the company included Matt and Dizzy, I think. I never understood that because they were hired by the owners of the company after the foundation was laid. How can you be part of the company that was completed before you started working for it and the business stalled and kind of went out of circulation  until the The Big 3 owners just brought it back .

Edited August 19, 2019 by Amaya
Add more

[ASLayerAODsk]

you can discuss it all you want, bottom line is Ax holds all the rights, everyone but him, is a 'hired hand' now, regardless of history. Just how it is..
NOW, having said that, the next 'category' would be license holders/rights holders...and that group is significantly more complex...

Edited August 26, 2019 by ASLayerAODsk

[Len Cnut]

Axl Rose is about the biggest member GnR have ever had, literally as well as figuratively.

[AncientEvil80]

On 8/18/2019 at 5:23 PM, -W.A.R- said:

No but i respect their contributions enough to include them. Dizzy is admittedly on the edge for me as far as contributions go but i figure hes put up with Axl's shit long enough  

A note on this: I consider West Arkeen a much more prolific and relevant contributor to GNR than Dizzy could ever dream to be.

 

As for the topic off the thread: fellas, it's simple. You can stick and slap any narrative you want, free to use your illusions, but the Members of Guns N' Roses as they were signed to produce music were 5 (FIVE!). And we all know who they are. 

All the rest is a diminishing of the formula, to the point of total alienation... LMFAO

[DTJ80]

I keep thinking we should have ‘marks’ to define lines-ups. The most famous example is Deep Purple - some folk would say the Mark IV line-up is the best they had.

Would GNR benefit from something like this (between us fans) or is it a case of no-one cares if it’s not ‘AFD5’?

[jamillos]

30 minutes ago, DTJ80 said:

I keep thinking we should have ‘marks’ to define lines-ups. The most famous example is Deep Purple - some folk would say the Mark IV line-up is the best they had.

Would GNR benefit from something like this (between us fans) or is it a case of no-one cares if it’s not ‘AFD5’?

But we do have the marks, we just call them differently:

Mark 1: Pre-AfD aka the Tracii era 
Mark 2: AfD aka the treasure trove 
Mark 3: UYI 1 aka AfD sans Steven goes chorus (1991)
Mark 4: UYI 2 aka it’s not the real GN’R, part I. (1992+) 
Mark 5: 2000 intentions aka nobody knows what the fuck is going on (97–2001)
Mark 6: CD 1 aka this even has nothing to do with GN’R (02–08)
Mark 7: CD 2 aka no Tuesdays left / ChinDem tours 4ever (2009+)
Mark 8: The holy trinity aka it’s not the real GN’R, part II. 

[DTJ80]

15 minutes ago, jamillos said:

But we do have the marks, we just call them differently:

Mark 1: Pre-AfD aka the Tracii era 
Mark 2: AfD aka the treasure trove 
Mark 3: UYI 1 aka AfD sans Steven goes chorus (1991)
Mark 4: UYI 2 aka it’s not the real GN’R, part I. (1992+) 
Mark 5: 2000 intentions aka nobody knows what the fuck is going on (97–2001)
Mark 6: CD 1 aka this even has nothing to do with GN’R (02–08)
Mark 7: CD 2 aka no Tuesdays left / ChinDem tours 4ever (2009+)
Mark 8: The holy trinity aka it’s not the real GN’R, part II. 

Ha ha - something like that!

[acor]

24 minutes ago, jamillos said:

But we do have the marks, we just call them differently:

Mark 1: Pre-AfD aka the Tracii era 
Mark 2: AfD aka the treasure trove 
Mark 3: UYI 1 aka AfD sans Steven goes chorus (1991)
Mark 4: UYI 2 aka it’s not the real GN’R, part I. (1992+) 
Mark 5: 2000 intentions aka nobody knows what the fuck is going on (97–2001)
Mark 6: CD 1 aka this even has nothing to do with GN’R (02–08)
Mark 7: CD 2 aka no Tuesdays left / ChinDem tours 4ever (2009+)
Mark 8: The holy trinity aka it’s not the real GN’R, part II. 

Lol, must say I laughed at that...

[©GnrPersia]

I would say Tommy Stinson was more that just a hired gun. He was literally leading the band on stage at some point.

[dadud]

hint: EVERYONE was a member of guns n roses.