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Chinese Democracy (2008) vs Rough Mixes CD #1 (2000)

Chinese Democracy (2008) vs Rough Mixes CD #1 (2000)   

248 members have voted

  1. 1. Which album do you prefer?

    • Chinese Democracy (official release from 2008)
    • Rough Mixes CD #1 (roughly 2000 Intentions from 2000)


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Generally speaking I prefer the arrangements/mixes of the Rough Mixes but I prefer the official release because it contains the TWAT solo from Bucket, Better, and Shackler's.

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The CD songs are better on the album release version (perhaps only Rhiad is better on the rough mixes), but the album should had been released back then. 

Atlas and Perhaps are amazing and add a lot to the overall experience of the album too. Silkworms sucks though

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40 minutes ago, Jordan Rose said:

Bucket's Twat solo over everything. Axl should spend a week at Bucket's and just sing over loads of Pikes. Look what he did in no time at all with Stuck Inside. 

I bet if Axl went into a studio with Bucket, Brain, Melissa, Tobias and Dan Monti, they could have an album out within days.

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Here's how I rank the RMCD1 songs.  Ultimately, I like the 2008 Album better.  There are aspects from the album songs and all leaks that I like, but as a whole, I like the album that was released.

 

Madagascar RMCD1 < 2008 Album

TWAT RMCD1 < 2008 Album

Atlas Shrugged RMCD1 < Drums Up 1.5db Version

Perhaps RMCD1 > Original Leak

Prostitute RMCD1 < 2008 Album

Rhiad and the Bedhouins RMCD1 < Josh Freese Leak > 2008 Album

Catcher in the Rye RMCD1 > 2008 Album

Chinese Democracy RMCD1 < 2008 Album

The Blues RMCD1 < First 2019 Leak > 2008 Album

Silkworms RMCD1 > All Other SW Leaks

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As someone who’s favorite album of all time is Chinese, let me do a thing real quick. Only songs on both albums will be compared and then I’ll talk about the remaining tracks at the end.

1.) Chinese Democracy - tough to say here. I really do like the final version’s Buckethead solo. The intro is kind of drawn out in the final version. Overall actually I prefer the 2000 Intension version. Has a lot more grit to it. Very good mix. Great rock song. Besides the bucket solo I don’t know why they bothered tinkering with it anymore. +1 2000

2.) TWAT...gotta stick with 2008. While the production and raw sound is amazing in the 2000’s version and I prefer the intro and some of the instruments during the verses, I have to agree with the poster who said Buckethead’s solo was one of the best moments in GNR history. Enough said. I think in general the 2008 version wins here. +1 2008

3.) Prostitute- Great version but honestly I can’t stand the “wah wah wah” in the verses. I think the final instrumention is better except for the stupid little bloops that were added. The 2008 version wins for me here. +1 2008

4.) Riad- Easily 2000. They ruined this song in the 2008 version. The 40 second stolen intro was unnecessary and while I defend the 2008 album a lot, I will say Riad was extremely overproduced there and ruined. I actually really like the song since listening to this version. +1 2000

5.) Maddy- I mean to be honest? Song sounds pretty close in both versions besides small differences. I will say I prefer the drumming and instrumention here a lot more, though. Will go with the 2000 version but barely. +1 2000’s

6.) Catcher - I think I will go with the 2000’s version again. The song having more production on it in the 2008 version did it few favors. The 2000’s version resembles more of a UYI ballad in this form. The solo as well kicks ass. Bumblefoot is a legend but no reason to replace May on the final version with him. +1 2000’s

7.) The Blues- Same kind of reasoning with TWAT for me. I think the 2008 version worked very well, and really liked the hidden Buckethead solo’s throughout. The extra production enhanced the song for me, personally. Sure it’s a controversial choice though. +1 2008

So in terms of songs on both, we have 4-3, with 2000’s beating out 2008 by 1 point. But keep in mind- 2008 had some real excellent songs such as This I Love, IRS, Better, Shackler’s and Sorry. Perhaps, Atlas, and Silkworms were on 2000’s but not 2008. Silkworms we can instantly throw in the trash imo, terrible song. Perhaps and Atlas are great songs as well, but I’m not sure they beat out the entire song lineup of Chinese. The only song I’d remove on Chinese would be Scraped. Imagine if you replaced Scraped with Perhaps and threw Atlas on the disc as well. Amazing album list. 

Overall I have to give the hand to 2008, mainly due to the amazing tracklist. 2000 had a great tracklist as well minus Silkworms. But 2008 just has so many amazing tunes and Buckethead and Bumble did add a lot great to them, even if some of the songs got ruined (Riad) or hampered by overproduction (Catcher).

But both albums are amazing great and truly and as a person who’s favorite album of all time is Chinese, hearing the 2000’s intentions after all these years is a dream. Best time to be a Guns fan for me. 

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13 minutes ago, aure69 said:

The 2008 album had one issue to me : that production sounded immediately fat and outdated, the RMCD1 sounds fresh, clear and spontaneous, this kind of sound never gets old. 

It seems incredible that they spent 8 years just to add Buckethead and Brain tracks and to fatten these songs. The most terrible idea has been to take out Atlas and Perhaps to replace them by Shackler's Revenge, Scraped or even Better. The only thing that could justify it is that CDII was indeed on track when CD was released and that hey kept Perhaps and Atlas for future CDII singles.

This 2006 quote of Axl really sums up everything : "To say the making of this album has been an unbearably long and incomprehensible journey would be an understatement”

Now I would love an official boxset named “An unbearably long and incomprehensible journey” with all the CD era stuff, this would be fun after the "Not In This Lifetime" tour !

Better and Shacklers are two of the best uptempos on the album. There's only two real uptempos on the Rough Mixes CD, otherwise it's one midtempo after another.

The album needed some variation in pace and BPM. That's what the 2008 album gave us and I'm thankful for that. 

Edited by Towelie

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Without a doubt, the Rough Mix album #1 is superior musically.  If you look at it in the context of that version of the album coming out in late 2001, or 2002, I don't see how any sane person could say otherwise. Throw Hard School & IRS on there and it would seal the deal, even with only 12 tracks.

Edited by sofine11

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The overall sound of the 2000 disc is amazing compared to the 2008 overproduced sound that specifically lacks bass guitar. The only problem with the 2000 disc is its too short at only 10 songs. If you throw in State of Grace, IRS, Hardschool, and a better version TWAT you got the album that should have been.

 

 

 

The sound of the 2000 is easily 100 times better than the 2008 mess. 

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I think there's a lot of bias for a version that is new to our ears and contains new songs over one that we've known for over a decade. 

It's like when my parents divorced and I liked my Dad more cuz I only saw him on alternate weekends. 

Edited by Towelie
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Anybody that thinks the 2008 album sounds better must have serious hearing problems. Get a pair of beats headphones or something so you can hear the 2000 disc properly.

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I prefer the 2008 album. Some of the layers pay off, and some don't. 

Riad and The Blues are superior on 2000 Intentions.

Catcher is overall better in 2000 Intentions. It had way too much shit layered on it. However, I really like Rons playing on the album track just as I like Brian's contributions

I straight up prefer the album versions of Chinese (I like the fretless and Bucket solo), TWAT, Madagascar, and Prostitute (simply because it has the guitar solos) but these are all great versions I am happy to have.

Atlas sounds pretty good mixed but I am missing songs like TiL, Sorry, and ITW which all have phenomenal guitar solos and I love Shacklers which is absent. Perhaps not being on the 2008 album is a loss, that song is great. 

Overall, 2008 album wins for me but I would have much rather 2000 Intentions came out in 1999 or 2000. It would have certainly paved the way for more albums and although we would lose Buckets solos in TWAT and Prostitute, wed have gotten a ton of future Bucket songs like The General, Zodiac, Soul Monster, Prom Violence, etc, and the missing songs on Chinese like TiL, ITW, etc later on.

It wasnt worth a 10 year delay

 

19 minutes ago, Gibsonfender2323 said:

Perhaps sounds so good

The only songs that are superior to 2008 

RIAD

Catcher

 

The album really needed Buckethead

Its interesting. Bucket made the cut for this album (barely) as he is on Madagascar and probably the riffs of Prostitute but almost nothing else

Edited by ZoSoRose

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2 minutes ago, ZoSoRose said:

I prefer the 2008 album. Some of the layers pay off, and some don't. 

Riad and The Blues are superior on 2000 Intentions.

Catcher is overall better in 2000 Intentions. It had way too much shit layered on it. However, I really like Rons playing on the album track just as I like Brian's contributions

I straight up prefer the album versions of Chinese (I like the fretless and Bucket solo), TWAT, Madagascar, and Prostitute (simply because it has the guitar solos) but these are all great versions I am happy to have.

Atlas sounds pretty good mixed but I am missing songs like TiL, Sorry, and ITW which all have phenomenal guitar solos and I love Shacklers which is absent. Perhaps not being on the 2008 album is a loss, that song is great. 

Overall, 2008 album wins for me but I would have much rather 2000 Intentions came out in 1999 or 2000. It would have certainly paved the way for more albums and although we would lose Buckets solos in TWAT and Prostitute, wed have gotten a ton of future Bucket songs like The General, Zodiac, Soul Monster, Prom Violence, etc, and the missing songs on Chinese like TiL, ITW, etc later on.

It wasnt worth a 10 year delay

 

Its interesting. Bucket made the cut for this album (barely) as he is on Madagascar and probably the riffs of Prostitute but almost nothing else

Its like how Slash made AFD and UYI. CD without Bucket is just nuts IMO he was crucial to the final sound of the album

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1 minute ago, Gibsonfender2323 said:

Its like how Slash made AFD and UYI. CD without Bucket is just nuts IMO he was crucial to the final sound of the album

I agree which is why I overall prefer CD to 2000 Intentions. Robin does a great job on this album though. It's not an album with big solos, but ironically is sort of a raw 2000s alternative hard rock album. The opposite of what the final version was with all the production

If this got released when it was supposed to, we could have gotten 2+ more albums with Bucket all over then throughout the 2000s. Awesome aongs like Better, Zodiac, Hard School, all the other unheard, leaked, and Chinese songs would have appeared on those. 

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If the 2000 rough mix #1 CD had TWAT, Better & IRS with Bucket, it would have been one of the greatest albums ever when it would have come out in either 2002 or 2003. It would have swallowed the 2008 album whole. 

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57 minutes ago, Towelie said:

Better and Shacklers are two of the best uptempos on the album. There's only two real uptempos on the Rough Mixes CD, otherwise it's one midtempo after another.

The album needed some variation in pace and BPM. That's what the 2008 album gave us and I'm thankful for that. 

Shacklers for me is just an odd song although I understand your point about being up tempo as there are a lot of mid and slow songs on the album. I still don’t like it though - especially the guitar solo.

How any one would want to dump Better though? That’s the best song on the album

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I cant answer a question like this with the excitement of the recent leaks.

Could answer that probably in weeks.

Edited by Finck2006

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But I wish I could combine the two. Because the drums and bass are sorely missing on the studio release by comparison. Now, that said, these early versions of songs, the bass was perhaps too high in parts and drowned out the vocals (think the verses in "TWAT"). But then you look at the title track and that rumbling bass is completely missing on the studio release. Also, speaking of "TWAT," the drums are so prevalent on the Rough Mix CD during the entire coda. It makes the studio release drums sound like someone is tapping a toy kit. It's sad, man. Those drums are INTENSE in all this early stuff.

 

Overall, I prefer the studio version due to the track list.

1) More bangers on the studio release. Rough Mix is too ballad-heavy with that track list. "Better" and "IRS" were two standout tracks on the studio release. Even "Shackler's."

2) "There was a Time" is one of my favorite songs ever and the coda is brilliant. Studio version has Buckethead and it *needs* that.


You know how the final mix of Metallica's And Justice For All  had bass super low in the mix and a fan remixed it? Is there a way for a fan to take the Rock Band stems and increase the bass and drums on the studio record to line up more with these early mixes? That would blend best of both worlds in my opinion. 

Edited by GnR Chris

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I have to say I prefer the official version of the album. Some of the production changes are slightly better ; some slightly worse. It more or less balances out. But this rough mix version lacks Shacklers, This I Love and Better - 3 of the best songs on the album.

 

 

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It's not just Buckets solo that lifts TWAT to another level. It really sounds so much better with the orchestral arrangements.

Edited by Towelie
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15 minutes ago, Towelie said:

It's not just Buckets solo that lifts TWAT to another level. It really sounds so much better with the orchestral arrangements.

I agree.

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I like the rough mixes CD a lot more.

It sounds so much more natural. They should have released it in 2000.

Perhaps and Atlas even sound great here. I like them more than Scraped and Sorry.

The whole CD just feels more like one unit, the songs fit together.

Brian May solo's are great too.

If Axl would have released this as a solo record everyone would have loved it. He could have had a nice solo career without GnR.

All this tinkering and rerecording of CD just made it worse. These rough mixes are on a level of their own.

The 2000 CD has a sense of urgency the official album lacks.

They are what I wanted CD to be :headbang::shrugs:

It rocks more... Chinese Democracy, the song, is great on it too. TWAT and The Blues are insanely good.

The more songs I hear from it, the better it gets. They really should have stopped tinkering with these songs.

Edited by Lethalis

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