STAR WARS: Convoluted Cash- Cow Disney Adventure Series That Will Never End Thread

[Jw224]

52 minutes ago, RussTCB said:

I really think the biggest issue we differ on is if there was a plan for this trilogy.

I'd made the comment that it was time for JJ to clean up Rians mess. Your point was that it's on Kennedy because Disney didn't have a plan. 

That's where I disagree. From my POV, there was a plan which started with TFA then Rian came in and shit all over the plan. So then it was on JJ to get things back on track and tied up over the course of the last two hours or so. 

Don't get me wrong, I understand that a lot of SW fans feel justified in blaming Kennedy for a lot of what's happened. I just think the plot line mess lies solely with Rian Johnson. 

As for Rise specifically, I posted that it was everything I wanted it to be and it was. All I wanted was for JJ to clean up what he could from all the things TLJ did wrong. 

Rian has already said that there wasn't a plan when he came on to do TLJ. Fans certainly like blaming him for literally everything. 

Edited December 21, 2019 by Jw224

[RussTCB]

8 minutes ago, Jw224 said:

Rian has already said that there wasn't a plan when he came on to do TLJ. Fans certainly like blaming him for literally everything. 

I know he said that, but I honestly can't wrap my head around that statement. Like... Just as a fan watching TFA, I could have taken over and gone with what I perceived to be the plan just based on what was in TFA, ya know? 

[rocknroll41]

My understanding is that the breakdown of the original plan wasn’t due to a clash between JJ and Rian specifically, but rather between Bad Robot and the Lucasfilm Story Group. Pablo Hidalgo from Lucasfilm hinted at this on Twitter once or twice (but has since wiped all of his old tweets away, to “start fresh” or whatever).

My speculation: JJ was brought in for TFA, and brought his Bad Robot production company along with him to co-produce with Disney/Lucasfilm. Most of the movie was developed at Bad Robot once timing constraints and scheduling became a problem. This rubbed Lucasfilm the wrong way. The plan was always to have someone else direct the next film, in order to meet Disney’s tight schedule. So when Rian came in, JJ and Robot were no longer involved, thus allowing Lucasfilm to do more of their own thing without having to work with Robot or any other group. They probably wanted to “subvert” TFA quite a bit since it wasn’t really the film they wanted from the start anyways. TFA, afterall, ended up being more of Robot’s film than theirs, so they probably saw Rian’s vision for TLJ as a “course correction” for themselves, more than anything else. Fast forward a few years later and now JJ and Robot are being brought back for the finale. Kennedy claims it was her decision. Reports say it was Disney’s. Perhaps we’ll never know who it really was that put JJ back in the director chair. But nonetheless, all it did was restart the “tug of war” between Lucasfilm and Robot. This whole trilogy has been a tug of war between the two, actually.

In the end, while I like this trilogy, the real group to blame for the sloppiness is neither Bad Robot, nor Lucasfilm. The real group to blame is Disney. They were the ones who demanded the every-other-year schedule that forced these films to be rushed out and hot-potatoed between two very different development companies. If you’re gonna blame someone for this trilogy not being a bit better, blame them, first and foremost.

Edited December 21, 2019 by rocknroll41

[rocknroll41]

Posted this on another forum and wanted to also share it here:

It doesn’t matter HOW he’s back. What matters is what Palpatine represents symbolically. He’s basically the starwars version of satan. Pure evil, and evil never 100% dies. Can’t have good without evil. For all we know, despite seeing him dissolve in front of our own eyes, this probably STILL isn’t even the last time the galaxy will see him. As the starwars incarnate of pure evil, he’s probably now destined to return cyclically, probably even every generation, in varying incarnations, for all of eternity. And a new chosen one will always be destined to rise up against him with each and every cycle. Just like Rey, and Anakin before her. Anakin was just the beginning. After all, he does tell her “restore the balance, as I once did.”

Yes, Anakin fulfilled his prophecy, and Palpatine was dead (at least temporarily). But, as my old writing teacher likes to say, “there’s no such thing as happily ever after, it just depends where you end the story.” It’s not about making peace last for eternity. It’s about always being willing to fight the good fight, and keep evil at bay, no matter what.

TLDR: The way he’s back doesn’t matter. All that matters is the metaphor.

[PatrickS77]

1 hour ago, RussTCB said:

And that's exactly it. A whole lot of people are looking back at IV - VI as if they were perfect films and they certainly were not. 

I never said the were perfect, but they are in many ways closer to perfect and great films than this new trilogy ever could be.

[DieselDaisy]

1 hour ago, RussTCB said:

And that's exactly it. A whole lot of people are looking back at IV - VI as if they were perfect films and they certainly were not. 

They rather were though! Empire is certainly perfection. Star Wars is near perfect (yes, Luke whines a bit and it is a little cheesy but it is still a 5/5 classic sci-fi fairy tale). The only film which falls short of perfection is Jedi. 

Edited December 21, 2019 by DieselDaisy

[PatrickS77]

1 hour ago, Chewbacca said:

Yeah... they really wasted this opportunity.

Thry wasted the whole trilogy. Instead of a lame retread they could have brought something really new. But still respect what Jedi are and what they can and can't do.

[Jw224]

47 minutes ago, rocknroll41 said:

My understanding is that the breakdown of the original plan wasn’t due to a clash between JJ and Rian specifically, but rather between Bad Robot and the Lucasfilm Story Group. Pablo Hidalgo from Lucasfilm hinted at this on Twitter once or twice (but has since wiped all of his old tweets away, to “start fresh” or whatever).

My speculation: JJ was brought in for TFA, and brought his Bad Robot production company along with him to co-produce with Disney/Lucasfilm. Most of the movie was developed at Bad Robot once timing constraints and scheduling became a problem. This rubbed Lucasfilm the wrong way. The plan was always to have someone else direct the next film, in order to meet Disney’s tight schedule. So when Rian came in, JJ and Robot were no longer involved, thus allowing Lucasfilm to do more of their own thing without having to work with Robot or any other group. They probably wanted to “subvert” TFA quite a bit since it wasn’t really the film they wanted from the start anyways. TFA, afterall, ended up being more of Robot’s film than theirs, so they probably saw Rian’s vision for TLJ as a “course correction” for themselves, more than anything else. Fast forward a few years later and now JJ and Robot are being brought back for the finale. Kennedy claims it was her decision. Reports say it was Disney’s. Perhaps we’ll never know who it really was that put JJ back in the director chair. But nonetheless, all it did was restart the “tug of war” between Lucasfilm and Robot. This whole trilogy has been a tug of war between the two, actually.

In the end, while I like this trilogy, the real group to blame for the sloppiness is neither Bad Robot, nor Lucasfilm. The real group to blame is Disney. They were the ones who demanded the every-other-year schedule that forced these films to be rushed out and hot-potatoed between two very different development companies. If you’re gonna blame someone for this trilogy not being a bit better, blame them, first and foremost.

If lucas film wanted to do it their way then they should have just done it their way. Instead of letting jj and other companies dictate what happened with their property. It's a shame this trilogy wasn't as great as it could have been.

[appetite4illusions]

2 hours ago, RussTCB said:

I really think the biggest issue we differ on is if there was a plan for this trilogy.

I'd made the comment that it was time for JJ to clean up Rians mess. Your point was that it's on Kennedy because Disney didn't have a plan. 

That's where I disagree. From my POV, there was a plan which started with TFA then Rian came in and shit all over the plan. So then it was on JJ to get things back on track and tied up over the course of the last two hours or so. 

Don't get me wrong, I understand that a lot of SW fans feel justified in blaming Kennedy for a lot of what's happened. I just think the plot line mess lies solely with Rian Johnson. 

As for Rise specifically, I posted that it was everything I wanted it to be and it was. All I wanted was for JJ to clean up what he could from all the things TLJ did wrong. 

If there was a plan for the series following TFA - they would have protected it. 

But the fanciful idea they had was that they were going to dance in the moment. They were going to let it develop piecemeal and let these prestegiously talented filmmakers change the direction of it, in the moment.Maybe JJ had a plan for what he wanted to see next, but Disney didn't want to stifle creativity and wanted to take ideas as they came. So Rian Johnson got to make what he wanted and they supported whatever he came up with.

The Last Jedi is the only one of these films where there wasn't a major script problem, if you can believe that. Rian knew what he wanted to do and he didn't hit a brick wall like Michael Arndt did when he was writing Force Awakens. He didn't get lost in the editing bay and develop a dozen different cuts like Rise of Skywalker. Rian was sure of himself and as a consequence, The Last Jedi is a supremely confident and well made film - regardless if you hate what it does with the characters.

Disney was the master - Rian was just working within the framework they allotted him. So, if there's anybody to blame, it's Disney because they were responsible for the trilogy. Rian was just responsible for his film. Somebody should have stopped him if they felt he was trampling on the plot, but they supported him.

JJ himself, whether sincerely or insincerely, gushed about how great Rian's script was before production on that movie began. 

Quote

“He read it and said something he never, ever says,” Grunberg, who plays pilot Snap Wexley in the new film, tells The Post’s Comic Riffs. “He said: ‘It’s so good, I wish I were making it.’

https://dorksideoftheforce.com/2015/12/22/j-j-abrams-wishes-he-was-directing-episode-viii/

[Coma16]

Going to see this later today and super excited! Watched TLJ and again the other day and thought it was awesome (for the most part) - save a few cringeworthy moments, but that's typical for this franchise...

[RussTCB]

56 minutes ago, PatrickS77 said:

I never said the were perfect, but they are in many ways closer to perfect and great films than this new trilogy ever could be.

I didn't mean to say that you specifically said that, I'm talking about Star Wars fans in general or at least my perception of them. 

53 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

They rather were though! Empire is certainly perfection. Star Wars is near perfect (yes, Luke whines a bit and it is a little cheesy but it is still a 5/5 classic sci-fi fairy tale). The only film which falls short of perfection is Jedi. 

You're making statements like that and claiming not to be viewing IV - VI with rose colored, nostalgic glasses?

I'm no Star Wars expert by any means but I know enough to know that there are tons of flaws with those films. There's a lot of plot holes, bad acting and consistency issues regarding the story.

It's OK to love them and all, but to say they're perfect or even close to it just isn't true. 

[RussTCB]

27 minutes ago, appetite4illusions said:

If there was a plan for the series following TFA - they would have protected it. 

But the fanciful idea they had was that they were going to dance in the moment. They were going to let it develop piecemeal and let these prestegiously talented filmmakers change the direction of it, in the moment.Maybe JJ had a plan for what he wanted to see next, but Disney didn't want to stifle creativity and wanted to take ideas as they came. So Rian Johnson got to make what he wanted and they supported whatever he came up with.

The Last Jedi is the only one of these films where there wasn't a major script problem, if you can believe that. Rian knew what he wanted to do and he didn't hit a brick wall like Michael Arndt did when he was writing Force Awakens. He didn't get lost in the editing bay and develop a dozen different cuts like Rise of Skywalker. Rian was sure of himself and as a consequence, The Last Jedi is a supremely confident and well made film - regardless if you hate what it does with the characters.

Disney was the master - Rian was just working within the framework they allotted him. So, if there's anybody to blame, it's Disney because they were responsible for the trilogy. Rian was just responsible for his film. Somebody should have stopped him if they felt he was trampling on the plot, but they supported him.

JJ himself, whether sincerely or insincerely, gushed about how great Rian's script was before production on that movie began. 

https://dorksideoftheforce.com/2015/12/22/j-j-abrams-wishes-he-was-directing-episode-viii/

I believe TLJ was an unfortunate side effect of the culture we currently live in. I think it was a knee jerk reaction to all the online experts who hated TFA. 

To me, it felt like Disney and/or Rian said "Oh, OK. Well let's do this completely different thing now".

Just a guess on my part of course but I do think there was a plan that got sidelined once the online fan base kicked in with all their complaining. I'm not justifying the choice to do that, but I think that's what happened. 

[DieselDaisy]

44 minutes ago, RussTCB said:

I didn't mean to say that you specifically said that, I'm talking about Star Wars fans in general or at least my perception of them. 

You're making statements like that and claiming not to be viewing IV - VI with rose colored, nostalgic glasses?

I'm no Star Wars expert by any means but I know enough to know that there are tons of flaws with those films. There's a lot of plot holes, bad acting and consistency issues regarding the story.

It's OK to love them and all, but to say they're perfect or even close to it just isn't true. 

I do not believe I am allowing nostalgia to cloud my judgement of those films. I make no apologies: so far as Star Wars and Empire are concerned, they are fairly perfect, at least judging them by the criteria of ''pulp sci-fi adventure'' (obviously they are not Fellini films!). Both films regularly feature on the top 100 films of all time list, and Empire is considered one of the greatest sci-fi films of all time.

[Coma16]

Didnt most people love TFA?

[Iron MikeyJ]

8 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

I do not believe I am allowing nostalgia to cloud my judgement of those films. I make no apologies: so far as Star Wars and Empire are concerned, they are fairly perfect, at least judging them by the criteria of ''pulp sci-fi adventure'' (obviously they are not Fellini films!). Both films regularly feature on the top 100 films of all time list, and Empire is considered one of the greatest sci-fi films of all time.

You cant have an honest dialogue with this lot when it comes to these new films (I learned that earlier in this thread). They throw out condescending remarks like "nostalgia" and "rose tinted glasses" when you talk about the fact that the OT is considered almost perfect. Yet they dont see their own hypocrisy when discussing the sequel trilogy. Like seriously who is viewing things through "rose colored glasses?" 

DD, I've always found you to be an intelligent and interesting person to have these online conversations with. While we haven't always agreed, we disagreed from a place of respect and open exchange of thought and ideas. That is something that this forum is secerly lacking since Downzy took over imo. You have to agree with modern "woke" ideals, if not you get demonized. 

Take this tread for example, (while I admit that my words probably did come across condescendingly) the tone of which I wrote them got lost via written word. While if I had these same conversations in person (with all the same words used), certain people wouldn't of gotten so offended. Which I am by no means claiming innocence (I admit that I could have handled things differently) what I will say is that I NEVER directly attacked anyone in this thread. What I did was criticize a film series and say I feel "pity" for those that think these are good movies (because pity people growing up in an era that is handed such low quality from a series that was once considered THE best). But then what happend? I got personally attacked (I believe called "narrow minded" and "dumb") by someone I actually used to consider a friend. Let me reiterate, I NEVER once criticized anyone directly, yet got that in return. 

Basically what I'm saying is that some members on here are incapable of having a discussion of opposing view points (disagreeing but trying to understand the opposing view). It's not just on this forum though, it's in our whole society. We live in a society now where "you must agree with me or you are my enemy." That's not a world where creativity and ideas can be encouraged, but rather discouraged out of fear of being ostracized. 

Which irony of it all is this is just a film series, just movies. But as I've said, those throwing out these derogatory terms need to look in the mirror, perhaps they projecting their own faults on others? 

As for the film itself, I haven't seen it (and dont have any desire to). I've heard all the leaks, and I dont think I would hate it, no. But the problems caused by TLJ have ruined this film as well (just like I knew they would). The Last Jedi destroyed the Skywalker Saga, plain and simply. I just cant forgive the fact that a film series that has ALWAYS relied on the trilogy format, has been lessened to 3 stand alone sequels pretending to be a trilogy. As much damage as the prequels did is NOTHING compared to the damage caused by the sequel trilogy. Look at the numbers, the film isn't performing nearly as well. The Force Awakins did GREAT coming off of the prequels, but now the films are progressively doing worse and worse. That HAS to be a direct correlation with the quality of films being made. 

For the record, I dont care if Downzy suspends or bans me for this post.

[Dazey]

2 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

You cant have an honest dialogue with this lot when it comes to these new films (I learned that earlier in this thread). They throw out condescending remarks like "nostalgia" and "rose tinted glasses" when you talk about the fact that the OT is considered almost perfect. Yet they dont see their own hypocrisy when discussing the sequel trilogy. Like seriously who is viewing things through "rose colored glasses?" 

DD, I've always found you to be an intelligent and interesting person to have these online conversations with. While we haven't always agreed, we disagreed from a place of respect and open exchange of thought and ideas. That is something that this forum is secerly lacking since Downzy took over imo. You have to agree with modern "woke" ideals, if not you get demonized. 

Take this tread for example, (while I admit that my words probably did come across condescendingly) the tone of which I wrote them got lost via written word. While if I had these same conversations in person (with all the same words used), certain people wouldn't of gotten so offended. Which I am by no means claiming innocence (I admit that I could have handled things differently) what I will say is that I NEVER directly attacked anyone in this thread. What I did was criticize a film series and say I feel "pity" for those that think these are good movies (because pity people growing up in an era that is handed such low quality from a series that was once considered THE best). But then what happend? I got personally attacked (I believe called "narrow minded" and "dumb") by someone I actually used to consider a friend. Let me reiterate, I NEVER once criticized anyone directly, yet got that in return. 

Basically what I'm saying is that some members on here are incapable of having a discussion of opposing view points (disagreeing but trying to understand the opposing view). It's not just on this forum though, it's in our whole society. We live in a society now where "you must agree with me or you are my enemy." That's not a world where creativity and ideas can be encouraged, but rather discouraged out of fear of being ostracized. 

Which irony of it all is this is just a film series, just movies. But as I've said, those throwing out these derogatory terms need to look in the mirror, perhaps they projecting their own faults on others? 

As for the film itself, I haven't seen it (and dont have any desire to). I've heard all the leaks, and I dont think I would hate it, no. But the problems caused by TLJ have ruined this film as well (just like I knew they would). The Last Jedi destroyed the Skywalker Saga, plain and simply. I just cant forgive the fact that a film series that has ALWAYS relied on the trilogy format, has been lessened to 3 stand alone sequels pretending to be a trilogy. As much damage as the prequels did is NOTHING compared to the damage caused by the sequel trilogy. Look at the numbers, the film isn't performing nearly as well. The Force Awakins did GREAT coming off of the prequels, but now the films are progressively doing worse and worse. That HAS to be a direct correlation with the quality of films being made. 

For the record, I dont care if Downzy suspends or bans me for this post.

FOR fuck SAKE shut UP you UTTER bellend!!!!  

[Jw224]

Going to see it tonight 🙂

[Chewbacca]

33 minutes ago, Coma16 said:

Didnt most people love TFA?

As far as I remember, yes. It was a fine flick. Perhaps a little too rehashed from episode IV, but it set a path with lots of possibilities for fan to look forward to. Too bad its sequel was so mishandled it managed to criple 9, the entire trilogy and even the OT, by reviving ol' man Sheev and making Anakin's sacrifice pointless. The fact that Luke went nowhere with his new Jedi order didn't help IMO. Many of us wanted to see a new Jedi order, less restrict like the ones we had in the Old C-canon EU and we ended up with the same thing we had in the OT, no jedi order, that is.

You know, I remember being excited over Disney buying it from Lucas, I remember even joking about Olivia Kenobi making a cameo. Lucas never cared about the C-canon, he was like "it's all about Anakin's life, Luke doesn't get married and Palpatine never gets cloned (thank god) and many fans were fedup with that as well. Note that Lucas had plans for a sequel trilogy, which only made these statements even more confusing. We saw in Disney a possibility to get these stories get the respect they deserved, but in the end results were underwhelming. Shame.

[Jw224]

6 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

As far as I remember, yes. It was a fine flick. Perhaps a little too rehashed from episode IV, but it set a path with lots of possibilities for fan to look forward to. Too bad its sequel was so mishandled it managed to criple 9, the entire trilogy and even the OT, by reviving ol' man Sheev and making Anakin's sacrifice pointless. The fact that Luke went nowhere with his new Jedi order didn't help IMO. Many of us wanted to see a new Jedi order, less restrict like the ones we had in the Old C-canon EU and we ended up with the same thing we had in the OT, no jedi order, that is.

You know, I remember being excited over Disney buying it from Lucas, I remember even joking about Olivia Kenobi making a cameo. Lucas never cared about the C-canon, he was like "it's all about Anakin's life, Luke doesn't get married and Palpatine never gets cloned (thank god) and many fans were fedup with that as well. Note that Lucas had plans for a sequel trilogy, which only made these statements even more confusing. We saw in Disney a possibility to get these stories get the respect they deserved, but in the end results were underwhelming. Shame.

Yes, JJ making a worse movie is the director of the last movie's fault 🙄. JJ not doing anything new and just going "this is star wars!!!" is Rian's fault. 

Edited December 21, 2019 by Jw224

[ZoSoRose]

13 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

You cant have an honest dialogue with this lot when it comes to these new films (I learned that earlier in this thread). They throw out condescending remarks like "nostalgia" and "rose tinted glasses" when you talk about the fact that the OT is considered almost perfect. Yet they dont see their own hypocrisy when discussing the sequel trilogy. Like seriously who is viewing things through "rose colored glasses?" 

 

You clearly can't read, lots of people, myself included point out flaws with the ST. Do you not remember how you said you pity people with different opinions to your own and think they don't understand cinema earlier in the thread? I'm condescending? In your self proclaimed wise, old age of being in your 30s or 40s, can't you see how that's messed up?

[ZoSoRose]

You literally implied that you pitied me and thought I couldn't understand art like you do, and got upset when I rightly called you out for it. Now, you are once again acting high and mighty.  I didn't attack you, I called you out

 

Once called me a friend? You're that upset I called you out? Fine with me

[Dazey]

3 minutes ago, ZoSoRose said:

In your self proclaimed wise, old age of being in your 30s or 40s, can't you see how that's messed up?

Oi Fuckface! Since when was that old age?  I was born in the 70’s and I’m not crying about all this.  

[ZoSoRose]

1 minute ago, Dazey said:

Oi Fuckface! Since when was that old age?  I was born in the 70’s and I’m not crying about all this.  

Well then that surely means your opinions are instantly worth way more than mine! I'll shut up since I clearly don't have the world view you do. 

[Dazey]

Just now, ZoSoRose said:

Well then that surely means your opinions are instantly worth way more than mine! I'll shut up since I clearly don't have the world view you do. 

Well obviously.  

[Nicklord]

I'm not an OG or even a prequel kid, I watched all of them in I-VI order when I was like 15-16 in 2005/6, somewhere around when Episode III came to the DVD and I didn't know what the people thought about each one, I felt like everyone loved every single prequel like the rest of them.

I liked the first 3 movies and thought they were entertaining but I didn't really get what's so amazing until the 4th one. Like I distinctly remember in the middle of the 4th movie thinking how I want to look into the Lego sets (big fan then and to be honest now  ) of Millenium Falcon and Death Star but I couldn't give a single fuck about Legos of young Obi-Wan or Anakin. Sounds stupid maybe but it really was like that. Darth Vader vs Luke vs Darth Sidious scene was an amazing experience.

Watching the new Star Wars movies don't feel like watching Star Wars, it feels like watching Marvel (I don't like at all) in S P A C E