STAR WARS: Convoluted Cash- Cow Disney Adventure Series That Will Never End Thread

[Dazey]

5 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

Attack of the Clones made  $649,398,328. The point of this is people who dislike the film are still paying to go and see it and consequentially registering a box office receipt, unless they filched it of course. 

I mean, at this point you wouldn’t even know if you liked it UNLESS you’d been to the cinema to watch it. 
I did see it and thought it was terrible.  

Edited December 26, 2019 by Dazey

[DieselDaisy]

17 minutes ago, Dazey said:

I mean, at this point you wouldn’t even know if you liked it UNLESS you’d been to the cinema to watch it. 
I did see it and thought it was terrible.  

 

I filched it. Glad I didn't give Disney the money. I saw Force Awakens at the cinema and nearly walked out, and that is the one everyone likes.

[Dazey]

Just now, DieselDaisy said:

 

I filched it. Glad I didn't give Disney the money. I saw Force Awakens at the cinema and nearly walked out, and that is the one everyone likes.

Where did you find a decent copy? I was actually wondering how you might’ve been compelled to spend actual money on it.  

[DieselDaisy]

Just now, Dazey said:

Where did you find a decent copy? I was actually wondering how you might’ve been compelled to spend actual money on it.  

Torrents. But I am not sure I'd call it decent? There are a few people going back and forth to the pisser. Or leaving. 

[Dazey]

9 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Torrents. But I am not sure I'd call it decent? There are a few people going back and forth to the pisser. Or leaving. 

To be fair, my local cinema is only £6 for any film and the wife was getting on my tits so 3 hours out of the house didn’t seem like a bad investment.  

[downzy]

Two Star Wars threads have been merged.

Please be advised that this thread contains spoiler discussion without the use of spoiler tags.

[downzy]

Finally got a chance to see it this afternoon.

It's got some pacing issues but other than that objection it didn't leave me with a bad taste in my mouth like TLJ.  

Like with almost every Star Wars movie, if you think about it for too long or take the series too seriously it's hard to enjoy any of the films.

Take the Final Order's armada.  Sure, we could question how Palpatine could create such a force on a remote and distant planet without much appearance of a workforce, but the same could be said about the second Death Star to a certain extent.  If you think about this stuff too much it's not going to make any sense.

I would say I enjoyed this one slightly less than TFA but way more than TLJ.  It's a shame they didn't reveal Palpatine in the TLJ so much of the beginning of the TROS wasn't bogged down by exposition.

But yeah, overall it was a fun ride and nice to see a Star Wars film with a group dynamic.  

[downzy]

On 2019-12-20 at 6:28 PM, Zeppelin said:

These kinds of write-ups just replace one type of logic for another. Han doesn't have to be good at flying just because he's a smuggler. They could've introduced his character and then established Chewie as the main pilot who did all the flying. There's no logic there. That user is just assuming that Han's an established pilot because he was a smuggler. Doesn't really make any more sense than anything else in the SW universe, really. Viewers will connect the dots, sure. But if someone says to me, "Well, Han is a great pilot because he's a smuggler," then I'm not really caring about that. It's not necessarily an inevitable connection to be made.

Then you get the lovely "Well, in the canon book..." fluff that no one actually gives a shit about. There are companion books to the sequel trilogy that explain many other details, too. But no one ever references those because "DISNEY SUCKS" and whatever. In fact, the books offer a much more well-rounded explanation of certain details, including Rey's characterizations and whatnot. But either way, whether it's the Original Trilogy or the Sequel Trilogy, the movies should be able to explain themselves. So, that evidence should be disregarded altogether.

I'm not defending the Sequel Trilogy too much here. There's no doubt there are massive holes and plot points that make no sense, sloppy characterizations, etc. But these "arguments" from those that think the Original Trilogy is so pure are laughable at best. At the end of the day, all of the movies have certain flaws. They're not perfect. And anyone who says "Mary Sue" in any kind of context is annoying and attaches themselves to too much internet groupthink material.

Fantastic post; agree with all of it.

The more I think about the series as a whole, the more I realize that it's pointless trying to objectively judge one film over the other.  Ultimately each person has to ask themselves whether the film worked for them, but to also be open about why it might not work for others.  

It was also difficult to judge or evaluate the first two films since Lucasfilm left a lot of the explanation until the final film.  Personally I never could make heads or tails of the narrative found in the original trilogy until I saw all three films.  Sure, each film could be evaluated on more traditional aspects like story, editing, directing, acting, dialogue, etc.  They could also be evaluated on a personal basis for how they made you feel and whether you enjoyed the ride apart from the technical aspects.  

The sequel trilogy told a very large story that I suppose was somewhat handicapped by the legacy of Star Wars and the nostalgia that most people carry with the property.  Each film might have their problems, but ultimately I'm still glad they were made.  I didn't enjoy most of TLJ, but I do think it's probably one of the prettiest Star Wars films ever made.  Overall the series worked enough for me and there were enough fun and enjoyable moments to make me glad they reopened the story.  Perhaps the conclusions for some of the core characters did not resolve themselves in the way many had hoped.  But oh well, it's still just a movie at the end of the day.  No one is going to die because Luke Skywalker didn't get the send off that many thought he should.  

[downzy]

On 2019-12-22 at 6:28 PM, RussTCB said:

To your last point: I either hadn't read it or completely forgot that Han was going to be in the movie. I was stunned twice by that moment actually. When he said "Hey kid", I was like "No shit?? They got Ford to do a voice over? Sweet!" then when the camera panned, I was like "holy fuck, he's actually there?!". Maybe I'm a simple movie viewer, but that was fun for me. 

Agreed.  I'm still confused as to whether it was a vision or memory or ghost, but I really don't give a shit.  It was nice to see Han one more time.  And I thought it was a pretty emotional moment for Kylo/Ben's storyline.

It was definitely one of the cooler moments in the film for me.  

[downzy]

On 2019-12-24 at 6:13 AM, DieselDaisy said:

Name one plot hole in the original trilogy as gigantic as Palpatine mysteriously surviving, or the sudden flip-flop on Rey's parentage?

I thought Palpatine's survival was explained by Palpintine in Revenge of the Sith.  Something along the lines that his sith powers enable him to overcome death.  It's not so much of a plot hole as a narrative device that I guess you personally don't agree with.  

As for flip-flopping on Rey's parentage, are we sure for a fact that it was a flip-flop?  Do we have anything from Rhian that acknowledges that episode IX altered his intention with Rey's story?  Abrams was Executive Producer on all three sequel films.  You would think if he disagreed with Rhian's narrative decision with respect to Rey's parents before TLJ was put to film he would have objected.  Maybe this was the plan all along.  

Again, I don't necessarily see those as plot holes but narrative decisions that you personally don't agree with.  

[downzy]

Sorry for spamming the thread, but I've been avoiding this discussion for the past week as I didn't get a chance to see the film until yesterday (Thursday).

Came across this article at IGN and I think it does a great job explaining why the final film does as good a job as it could under the circumstances:

https://ca.ign.com/articles/2019/12/20/star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-the-last-jedi-fix

I do think the reverence for the OT is a little silly.  They were by no means perfect films, (though Empire was pretty great).  A New Hope was terrible if evaluated from almost every conceivable metric, save for special effects, music score, and imagination.  I find it impossible to watch Vadar and Obi Wan have their final lightsaber battle in A New Hope and not giggle.  It's just two old dudes standing in one place clumsily swinging lightsabers at each other.  How do you reconcile that "duel" with their previous fight where they were both doing backflips?  A New Hope has to be one of the most poorly made films to ever make the most amount of money.  

The new films do suffer by not having more of Han, Luke and Leia in each film.  Han is particularly missed since he was kind of the heart of the original films.  But at the same time, and as much as I didn't love seeing Han killed in TFA, I get how his death served Kylo's storyline through the trilogy.

I'm glad they connected Rey's lineage to Palpatine, or at least someone who was significant.  It at least (or should) quiet the angry men out there who hated a woman having abilities that were immediately explained or rationalized.  

I get that people get caught up on details like how or why Rey was standing in the right spot to use the dagger on the death star, but throughout the entire film (and looking back, the entire series), the films aren't subtle about the fact that the force is guiding the key characters to where they need to be.  Finn is often at the right place at the right time, saved for unknown and at times senseless reasons, but we really don't hear too many complaints about that.  Again, it's a film involving ghost powers, destiny, and space religion.  

[Jw224]

The film in general seems to spend so much time trying to undo what was done in TLJ rather than just continue on from it. Kylo was set up to be the main villain by the end but JJ decided to just make him a side character to Palpatine for no reason. I do think that it was pretty crappy of them to change Rey's lineage as one of the main points of TLJ was that you don't need to come from somewhere special and I thought it was a nice message. Now it's just basically yeah everyone comes from a special family lol. 

[DieselDaisy]

4 hours ago, downzy said:

I thought Palpatine's survival was explained by Palpintine in Revenge of the Sith.  Something along the lines that his sith powers enable him to overcome death.  It's not so much of a plot hole as a narrative device that I guess you personally don't agree with.  

As for flip-flopping on Rey's parentage, are we sure for a fact that it was a flip-flop?  Do we have anything from Rhian that acknowledges that episode IX altered his intention with Rey's story?  Abrams was Executive Producer on all three sequel films.  You would think if he disagreed with Rhian's narrative decision with respect to Rey's parents before TLJ was put to film he would have objected.  Maybe this was the plan all along.  

Again, I don't necessarily see those as plot holes but narrative decisions that you personally don't agree with.  

It is more in the way of execution. The Disney trilogy surges between opposite extremes with little in the way of build-up; the ideas aren't suitably worked-out or allowed to rest - the speed of Rise of Skywalker in general I should point out is stupendous, as the protagonists chase Sith curios (''the thing that gets the thing that gets the thing'') around a multitude of planetary locations. It at least gives off the impression that they're pulling it out their arse, and has given rise to the fan theory of two conflicting visions, Rian Johnson's and Abrams', whether you subscribe to this theory or not. I personally do.

4 hours ago, downzy said:

I do think the reverence for the OT is a little silly.  They were by no means perfect films, (though Empire was pretty great).  A New Hope was terrible if evaluated from almost every conceivable metric, save for special effects, music score, and imagination.  I find it impossible to watch Vadar and Obi One have their final lightsaber battle in A New Hope and not giggle.  It's just two old dudes standing in one place clumsily swinging lightsabers at each other.  How do you reconcile that "duel" with their previous fight where they were both doing backflips?  A New Hope has to be one of the most poorly made films to ever make the most amount of money.  

See that lightsaber sequence is a thousand times more brilliant than digital flipflopping. The dialogue is iconic. Star Wars is pulp fairy tale. When it came out, audiences couldn't believe what they were seeing - it completely changed filmmaking and the industry. It is still the most overtly enjoyable Star Wars film, although Empire is superior. It must still stand up as Abrams remade the entire thing for his Force Awakens! 

 

[downzy]

11 hours ago, Jw224 said:

The film in general seems to spend so much time trying to undo what was done in TLJ rather than just continue on from it. Kylo was set up to be the main villain by the end but JJ decided to just make him a side character to Palpatine for no reason. I do think that it was pretty crappy of them to change Rey's lineage as one of the main points of TLJ was that you don't need to come from somewhere special and I thought it was a nice message. Now it's just basically yeah everyone comes from a special family lol. 

I would say it's undoing, it's just building on what came before it.  It would have just felt weird, for me at least, from a three film story arc for Rey's lineage to be fully revealed in the middle of the second act.  

Having Rey come from nobody also doesn't really explain why she can do what she does early with little to no understanding or training in the ways of the force.  For me it would have been very underwhelming and felt hollow, in the context of the entire Skywalker saga, for someone completely unconnected to the main players to become the centre of the story.

And I don't think Rey's lineage immediately is an outright dismissal of the democratization of the force.  We saw other characters use and tap into the force that, unless I'm missing something, was never explained in terms of bloodlines.  Finn is a good example of someone who seemed to have a connection to the force even though we have no idea whether he came from family with similar predispositions.  It also doesn't erase what Johnson showed with some of the minor characters in TLJ, particularly the little boy at the end who used the force to summon his broom.  

As much as I make fun of the rather shallowness behind the philosophy that serves as the spiritual or religious foundation of the films, I should note that there are nuances that should be appreciated.  I think way too many Star Wars fans get caught up and take it far too seriously.  Because Rey is a Palpatine doesn't mean that the force only works with the chosen few.  But what it does do is explain a lot of Rey's inclinations that were initially cloaked in mystery (unless you're a misogynist who questions any female character with unexplained powers or gifts).  

[rocknroll41]

14 hours ago, downzy said:

Agreed.  I'm still confused as to whether it was a vision or memory or ghost, but I really don't give a shit.  It was nice to see Han one more time.  And I thought it was a pretty emotional moment for Kylo/Ben's storyline.

It was definitely one of the cooler moments in the film for me.  

Im pretty sure the vision of Han was synthesized by Leia, and that’s why she needed to basically “drain” herself to death in order to make it work.

2 hours ago, downzy said:

I would say it's undoing, it's just building on what came before it.  It would have just felt weird, for me at least, from a three film story arc for Rey's lineage to be fully revealed in the middle of the second act.  

Having Rey come from nobody also doesn't really explain why she can do what she does early with little to no understanding or training in the ways of the force.  For me it would have been very underwhelming and felt hollow, in the context of the entire Skywalker saga, for someone completely unconnected to the main players to become the centre of the story.

And I don't think Rey's lineage immediately is an outright dismissal of the democratization of the force.  We saw other characters use and tap into the force that, unless I'm missing something, was never explained in terms of bloodlines.  Finn is a good example of someone who seemed to have a connection to the force even though we have no idea whether he came from family with similar predispositions.  It also doesn't erase what Johnson showed with some of the minor characters in TLJ, particularly the little boy at the end who used the force to summon his broom.  

As much as I make fun of the rather shallowness behind the philosophy that serves as the spiritual or religious foundation of the films, I should note that there are nuances that should be appreciated.  I think way too many Star Wars fans get caught up and take it far too seriously.  Because Rey is a Palpatine doesn't mean that the force only works with the chosen few.  But what it does do is explain a lot of Rey's inclinations that were initially cloaked in mystery (unless you're a misogynist who questions any female character with unexplained powers or gifts).  

I’m out of likes but just wanted to say that I agree with pretty much all of this.

Edited December 27, 2019 by rocknroll41

[Jw224]

1 minute ago, rocknroll41 said:

Im pretty sure the vision of Han was synthesized bun Leia, and that’s why she needed to basically “drain” herself to death in order to make it work.

Yeah, I think that's what happened. I think that's why it's said that to reach him now she will need to use all of her strength. 

[downzy]

7 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

It is more in the way of execution. The Disney trilogy surges between opposite extremes with little in the way of build-up; the ideas aren't suitably worked-out or allowed to rest - the speed of Rise of Skywalker in general I should point out is stupendous, as the protagonists chase Sith curios (''the thing that gets the thing that gets the thing'') around a multitude of planetary locations. It at least gives off the impression that they're pulling it out their arse, and has given rise to the fan theory of two conflicting visions, Rian Johnson's and Abrams', whether you subscribe to this theory or not. I personally do.

I do agree with the pacing of RS.  But I think that's more of a product of TLJ doing very little to move the story along and leaving a lot for the final movie to get through.  When most of TLJ is taken up by a 40 mile an hour car chase, it doesn't leave for a lot else.

For me the scavenger hunt was more fun than problematic.  Actually felt a bit like an Indiana Jones film in that respect.  I'm not sure I agree that it means it was all pulled out of their ass.  They wanted to bring back Palpatine as the vehicle to explain both Rey and Snoke. They needed a way for the principal characters to find him.  Hence a scavenger hunt that was based on the previous investigation by Luke.  I don't see the problem and serves the overall story well.  

In any event, it sounds now like you're saying that your previous issues aren't plot holes per se, you just don't find the explanations satisfying.  That's fair.  

What I think is also fair is that most of us saw the OT when we were children.  There's an advantage to seeing these films from a less cynical and discerning eye that's no longer with us when we get to our 30s and 40s.  

We'll give passes to poor execution or questionable narrative decisions to films that meant a lot to us when we were kids.  That's the power of nostalgia.  I'm not saying that it's impossible to objectively evaluate a film franchise like Star Wars or that you're not wrong in your judgements.  But let's be realistic about who we are and were when we consumed these kinds of films.  I have friends with kids who are the same age as I was when I first saw the OT.  They have all loved each of the ST instalments, particularly this last one.  Perhaps with time they'll see things differently.  Or perhaps they'll grow up and defend the new trilogy for their own personal reasons and the connection they have to their youth.  Who knows.

 

[downzy]

7 minutes ago, rocknroll41 said:

Im pretty sure the vision of Han was synthesized bun Leia, and that’s why she needed to basically “drain” herself to death in order to make it work.

Thank you.  That makes the most sense.  

If that's the case, then I would bet Leia was suppose to be with Ben in this moment, but because Fischer died, they had to ask Ford to reprise the role.  

[downzy]

7 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

See that lightsaber sequence is a thousand times more brilliant than digital flipflopping. The dialogue is iconic. Star Wars is pulp fairy tale. When it came out, audiences couldn't believe what they were seeing - it completely changed filmmaking and the industry. It is still the most overtly enjoyable Star Wars film, although Empire is superior. It must still stand up as Abrams remade the entire thing for his Force Awakens! 

Sorry, but what?  The lightsaber sequence in ANH is a thousand times better than others?  Sorry, but have you watched it recently?  It's basically two geriatrics mostly standing in one position tapping each other's lightsabers.  

Some of the dialogue is iconic because it's tied to a film property that blew people away with special effects that no one knew were possible.  Nobody is arguing that A New Hope wasn't revolutionary filmmaking from a technical standpoint.  But take that technical wizardry away and you're left with a film that likely would have problems getting a passing grade in film school.

For me, most of the dialogue is outright cringe inducing.  The lines were so bad that Ford threatened (or likely joked) to tie Lucas up and force him to say his own lines at gunpoint.  Hamil begged Lucas to crop some of the most nauseating dialogue from the film.  

From Leia calling Solo "laser brain," to Alderaan being pronounced differently by four different characters, to the incessant whining of Luke Skywalker, to the puzzled look on Alec Guinness's face with every line he delivered, there are no shortages of WTF moments in A New Hope.  I'm still waiting to see how Obi Wan would become far more powerful by Vader striking him down, as he proclaimed right before Vader struck him down.  

I'm not saying it's a bad film, or at the very least, one that can't be enjoyed.  My point here is that critics of the new films are often comparing them to the older trilogy in a way that I don't think is objective or fair.  The OT were far from perfect films.

The other problem with A New Hope, one it's not responsible for, is that the prequels and particularly Rogue One really makes much of the film's dialogue look stupid and detached from the entire series.  Again, not its fault, but if you were to watch the anthology from beginning to end, there are some serious continuity issues.  I can't post the direct link because of the stupid YouTube policy we had to implement, but search YouTube for the following: 

Star Wars SC 3, 5, 16, 29, 38 Reimagined (9:45min)

[rocknroll41]

1 hour ago, downzy said:

Thank you.  That makes the most sense.  

If that's the case, then I would bet Leia was suppose to be with Ben in this moment, but because Fischer died, they had to ask Ford to reprise the role.  

That’s probably what happened, yeah.

[Basic_GnR_Fan]

Wait so people can be magically brought back to life and force ghosts can affect the physical world? LOL that is just bad. Rey bringing people back to life makes her even more of a Mary Sue. And why don't force ghosts ever intervene except for Luke catching a lightsaber and raising a ship? Why didn't they all team up and kill Palpatine/Snoke/Kylo as soon as they became a threat? Speaking of, what's the point of even living if you are essentially more powerful as a force ghost. You can affect the physical plane and are essentially invisible and invulnerable! 

[rocknroll41]

1 hour ago, downzy said:

I do agree with the pacing of RS.  But I think that's more of a product of TLJ doing very little to move the story along and leaving a lot for the final movie to get through.  When most of TLJ is taken up by a 40 mile an hour car chase, it doesn't leave for a lot else.

For me the scavenger hunt was more fun than problematic.  Actually felt a bit like an Indiana Jones film in that respect.  I'm not sure I agree that it means it was all pulled out of their ass.  They wanted to bring back Palpatine as the vehicle to explain both Rey and Snoke. They needed a way for the principal characters to find him.  Hence a scavenger hunt that was based on the previous investigation by Luke.  I don't see the problem and serves the overall story well.  

In any event, it sounds now like you're saying that your previous issues aren't plot holes per se, you just don't find the explanations satisfying.  That's fair.  

What I think is also fair is that most of us saw the OT when we were children.  There's an advantage to seeing these films from a less cynical and discerning eye that's no longer with us when we get to our 30s and 40s.  

We'll give passes to poor execution or questionable narrative decisions to films that meant a lot to us when we were kids.  That's the power of nostalgia.  I'm not saying that it's impossible to objectively evaluate a film franchise like Star Wars or that you're not wrong in your judgements.  But let's be realistic about who we are and were when we consumed these kinds of films.  I have friends with kids who are the same age as I was when I first saw the OT.  They have all loved each of the ST instalments, particularly this last one.  Perhaps with time they'll see things differently.  Or perhaps they'll grow up and defend the new trilogy for their own personal reasons and the connection they have to their youth.  Who knows.

 

I agree that the Indiana Jones-style treasure hunt was great! That’s actually what the plot of TFA was originally supposed to be like, if the concept art from that film is anything to go by. I remember people were pissed when they saw that plot got discarded from that film, but are now equally upset for its inclusion in this film. Just goes to show that any decision made in this whole trilogy was never going to please everyone, cause the Skywalker saga just means different things to different people. Now that the Skywalker story is over, though, I don’t think they’ll have that problem (as much) going forward.

[downzy]

5 hours ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

Wait so people can be magically brought back to life and force ghosts can affect the physical world? LOL that is just bad. Rey bringing people back to life makes her even more of a Mary Sue. And why don't force ghosts ever intervene except for Luke catching a lightsaber and raising a ship? Why didn't they all team up and kill Palpatine/Snoke/Kylo as soon as they became a threat? Speaking of, what's the point of even living if you are essentially more powerful as a force ghost. You can affect the physical plane and are essentially invisible and invulnerable! 

Nearly every Star Wars film has introduced new jedi/sith ghost powers.  Almost none of it makes sense.  To beat up on Rey is to excuse how Luke is able to call for his lightsaber in Empire without ever having seen or been taught how to do it.  How would he even known?  

You're speaking as though there are hard and fast rules, and that other entries in the saga haven't rendered other parts senseless.  

As for Rey having the ability to heal (I don't recall her bringing people back to life, only Ben does that), they provided an explanation in the movie with her studying of the sacred texts.  You can accept that explanation or not, but it's not as though a rationale wasn’t provided.  

  

 

 

[downzy]

8 minutes ago, rocknroll41 said:

I agree that the Indiana Jones-style treasure hunt was great! That’s actually what the plot of TFA was originally supposed to be like, if the concept art from that film is anything to go by. I remember people were pissed when they saw that plot got discarded from that film, but are now equally upset for its inclusion in this film. Just goes to show that any decision made in this whole trilogy was never going to please everyone, cause the Skywalker saga just means different things to different people. Now that the Skywalker story is over, though, I don’t think they’ll have that problem (as much) going forward.

I'd like to agree with you, but I think most of the criticisms of Star Wars are not entirely objective and comes from strange place that needs to disparage some aspects or elements in order to defend the value of other aspects.  

As I said in my previous post, most people who were around when the OT came out or watched them in the 80s when they were kids are different people now.  They use different rules and standards to evaluate the new films that aren't applied to the old films. 

The older I get and the more distance I put between the OT and my youth the more I see them for what they were: visually stunning films that were way ahead of their time from a technical standpoint, but still fairly flawed films with respect to storytelling, dialogue, acting, editing, etc.  I think it's harder for 30 and 40 year olds to see the new films through the same perspectives they had as kids.  Hence any new Star Wars films are going to be ripped to shreds since they're comparing nostalgia and memories of their youth to new entries that don't benefit from the same childlike perspective.  

I read someone say that those who want to shit on the new trilogy are likely the same people who can't acknowledge that old films aren't all that great, so they project their frustrations onto the new films.  I think there's an element of truth to that.  

[rocknroll41]

5 hours ago, downzy said:

Nearly every Star Wars film has introduced new jedi/sith ghost powers.  Almost none of it makes sense.  To beat up on Rey is to excuse how Luke is able to call for his lightsaber in Empire without ever having seen or been taught how to do it.  How would he even known?  

You're speaking as though there are hard and fast rules, and that other entries in the saga haven't rendered other parts senseless.  

As for Rey having the ability to heal (I don't recall her bringing people back to life, only Ben does that), they provided an explanation in the movie with her studying of the sacred texts.  You can accept that explanation or not, but it's not as though there a rationale wasn’t provided.  

  

 

 

Yeah I agree that introducing new force powers and the “expansion” of the force is ultimately a good thing that shouldn’t be criticized as much as it is cause, like you said, the great ESB would technically be a “bad” movie when going by those parameters. I loved how TRoS expanded the force as much as possible. It was their last chance to introduce new force abilities to the Skywalkers, so might as well go all-out with it!