Eric Cantona Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 I enjoyed this one thoroughly, the other two as well. I certainly understand criticisms towards pacing, editing, plot holes and such, but I feel that some people are taking it too seriously and too far. All Star Wars movies, in my opinion, are dumb fun. Everything stems from a fever dream imagination, and it's fun to watch. It is also pretty fun seeing some people losing their shit because they didn't agree with the imagination of others. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocknroll41 Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 3 minutes ago, AslatIE said: I enjoyed this one thoroughly, the other two as well. I certainly understand criticisms towards pacing, editing, plot holes and such, but I feel that some people are taking it too seriously and too far. All Star Wars movies, in my opinion, are dumb fun. Everything stems from a fever dream imagination, and it's fun to watch. It is also pretty fun seeing some people losing their shit because they didn't agree with the imagination of others. Out of likes but just wanted to say that yeah I agree 100%. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 I have never considered Star Wars to be just ''dumb fun'', a category where we seemingly forgive a film its glaring foibles. Dumb fun is where I stick Z-movie horrors and wonky sequels. Star Wars is certainly escapist adventure. It certainly is family fun - has its lighthearted moments. None of this however means we should automatically dump it the ''dumb fun'' category, and that we should not therefore judge it as we would any other film, forgiving it for errors such as plotting and editing. It is a ridiculous suggestion. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Cantona Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 24 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said: I have never considered Star Wars to be just ''dumb fun'', a category where we seemingly forgive a film its glaring foibles. Dumb fun is where I stick Z-movie horrors and wonky sequels. Star Wars is certainly escapist adventure. It certainly is family fun - has its lighthearted moments. None of this however means we should automatically dump it the ''dumb fun'' category, and that we should not therefore judge it as we would any other film, forgiving it for errors such as plotting and editing. It is a ridiculous suggestion. Forgive me if I'm using bad terms, but the way I see it is that it is just fun! Entertaining and an escapist adventure as you said. I'm not forgiving pacing issues, plot hole issues, editing issues and so forth. I look at those as problems that almost objectively dampen the enjoyment of a film. I'm merely saying that the story itself, while being far from perfect, is still enjoyable for me personally, and people ranting and raving about that for ages is also very enjoyable to witness. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Cantona Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 Spoiler I'm gonna use this against myself just in case someone else decides to do it themselves, but if you go through The Walking Dead threads you'll find me losing my shit over every aspect of everything. Yes, I'm a big fat hypocrite, but it's still fun seeing entire armies waging war against the filmmakers 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RussTCB Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 20 minutes ago, AslatIE said: Forgive me if I'm using bad terms, but the way I see it is that it is just fun! Entertaining and an escapist adventure as you said. I'm not forgiving pacing issues, plot hole issues, editing issues and so forth. I look at those as problems that almost objectively dampen the enjoyment of a film. I'm merely saying that the story itself, while being far from perfect, is still enjoyable for me personally, and people ranting and raving about that for ages is also very enjoyable to witness. Personally, I think you used the exact right term the first time. It's totally OK to call Star Wars "dumb fun" IMO. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 Just because something is escapist (family) entertainment, it doesn't mean it is ''dumb fun''. And there is nothing much that is actually dumb about the original trilogy, or even to a lesser extent the prequels. It pioneered new technologies bringing forth state of the art special effects. It had plots and aesthetics accumulated from John Ford, Akira Kurosawa, Flash Gordon, history - and numerous other sources. It has its (tragic) deaths. It has one of cinema's most memorable plot twists. It has one of cinema's most memorable scores. It has one of cinema's most memorable villains. I recently watched a terrible Jurassic Park sequel. That could perhaps be described as dumb fun, i.e., something to leave your brain outside the door, something that is not even worthy of analyse. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downzy Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 16 hours ago, DieselDaisy said: Just because something is escapist (family) entertainment, it doesn't mean it is ''dumb fun''. And there is nothing much that is actually dumb about the original trilogy, or even to a lesser extent the prequels. It pioneered new technologies bringing forth state of the art special effects. It had plots and aesthetics accumulated from John Ford, Akira Kurosawa, Flash Gordon, history - and numerous other sources. It has its (tragic) deaths. It has one of cinema's most memorable plot twists. It has one of cinema's most memorable scores. It has one of cinema's most memorable villains. I recently watched a terrible Jurassic Park sequel. That could perhaps be described as dumb fun, i.e., something to leave your brain outside the door, something that is not even worthy of analyse. I don’t know, to me most of the narrative achievements you want to bestow on the OT are fairly arbitrary. Nothing in the OT was original. As you mentioned, Lucas drew heavily from previous filmmakers. The only reason people cared about Star Wars is largely because of the advances in special effects. This “grand vision” by Lucas you seem so certain of is a product of hindsight. Even Lucas admits he was making it up as he went along. No one is going to fault you if you personally want to see the OT as something more than popcorn cinematic fair. That’s because it really comes down to the individual’s own value judgments. So it’s only fair that you accept that others might value the OT differently, and hence how they are able to view and evaluate the ST differently. No one would ever deny that the OT revolutionized the technical aspects of movie making. But those advances definitely painted over some rather wonky elements of film making. Whether it be for sentimental or other reasons, you don’t seem interested in being objective about the OT in the same way you are with the ST. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocknroll41 Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 $850 million now! Closing in on a billion! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RussTCB Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 23 minutes ago, rocknroll41 said: $850 million now! Closing in on a billion! Very nice. I'm considering going to see it one more time while it's in the theaters. I caught so much more the second time that I figure a third viewing couldn't hurt. I have Disney+ though, so I may just wait for it to hit that in a few months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocknroll41 Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 10 minutes ago, RussTCB said: Very nice. I'm considering going to see it one more time while it's in the theaters. I caught so much more the second time that I figure a third viewing couldn't hurt. I have Disney+ though, so I may just wait for it to hit that in a few months. Yeah I’ve seen it twice so far. Planning to see it a third time soon. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatrickS77 Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 1 hour ago, rocknroll41 said: Yeah I’ve seen it twice so far. Planning to see it a third time soon. Right and make Disney screw up the next one even more. Who cares for story, when it's SW and there are nice images? People are gonna watch the shit anyway. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocknroll41 Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 (edited) 13 minutes ago, PatrickS77 said: Right and make Disney screw up the next one even more. Who cares for story, when it's SW and there are nice images? People are gonna watch the shit anyway. To be fair, the future starwars films are going to be new stories set in a different time period with all new characters, conflicts, etc. Plus, the creative team behind the future films is slightly different now (Kevin Feige from Marvel, for example). So I don’t think the success (or lack thereof) for this film has much of an impact on the future either way, honestly. All that aside, if I like the movie, shouldn’t I be allowed to go see it as much as I want? Regardless of how it impacts their future plans or whatever? Just sayin... Edited January 4, 2020 by rocknroll41 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RussTCB Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 15 minutes ago, PatrickS77 said: Right and make Disney screw up the next one even more. Who cares for story, when it's SW and there are nice images? People are gonna watch the shit anyway. You're aware that there are tons of people out there who genuinely enjoy the movie, right? 3 minutes ago, rocknroll41 said: All that aside, if I like the movie, shouldn’t I be allowed to go see it as much as I want? Regardless of how it impacts their future plans or whatever? Just sayin... Of course you should be able to go as much as you want. Just because someone else didn't like doesn't mean you shouldn't see it as many times as you like seeing as you did enjoy it. To suggest otherwise is just laughable. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 15 hours ago, downzy said: I don’t know, to me most of the narrative achievements you want to bestow on the OT are fairly arbitrary. Nothing in the OT was original. As you mentioned, Lucas drew heavily from previous filmmakers. The only reason people cared about Star Wars is largely because of the advances in special effects. This “grand vision” by Lucas you seem so certain of is a product of hindsight. Even Lucas admits he was making it up as he went along. No one is going to fault you if you personally want to see the OT as something more than popcorn cinematic fair. That’s because it really comes down to the individual’s own value judgments. So it’s only fair that you accept that others might value the OT differently, and hence how they are able to view and evaluate the ST differently. No one would ever deny that the OT revolutionized the technical aspects of movie making. But those advances definitely painted over some rather wonky elements of film making. Whether it be for sentimental or other reasons, you don’t seem interested in being objective about the OT in the same way you are with the ST. I don't agree with any of this, and you are manufacturing statements. I never claimed that there was a ''grand vision'', but there was certainly some sort of ''vision'' which we do not see in Disney's hence the Johnson interlude. ''Popcorn cinematic fair'' is your description. I actually have less problems with this than I do ''dumb fun'' - I believe I used ''escapist adventure'' or something similar to describe Star Wars - but this should not anesthetize us against a film's deficiencies (as it didn't with the Ewoks or the prequels). We shouldn't file away a films incoherence with a, ''but it is just a popcorn film''. The film deserves to be judged by the type of film it represents, (using your expression) ''a popcorn film''. We wouldn't therefore judge Star Wars by the criteria that we'd judge say a Fellini or Truffaut film. We should be able to make the cognitive distinction. Heck, children's films can be objectively assessed. One can say ''this is a poor film'' compared to another, ''a good film'', without recourse to, ''it's just a kid's film''. I have very little sentimental attachment to the original trilogy - as said earlier, I grew up on other types of films. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rovim Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 3 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said: I don't agree with any of this, and you are manufacturing statements. I never claimed that there was a ''grand vision'', but there was certainly some sort of ''vision'' which we do not see in Disney's hence the Johnson interlude. ''Popcorn cinematic fair'' is your description. I actually have less problems with this than I do ''dumb fun'' - I believe I used ''escapist adventure'' or something similar to describe Star Wars - but this should not anesthetize us against a film's deficiencies (as it didn't with the Ewoks or the prequels). We shouldn't file away a films incoherence with a, ''but it is just a popcorn film''. The film deserves to be judged by the type of film it represents, (using your expression) ''a popcorn film''. We wouldn't therefore judge Star Wars by the criteria that we'd judge say a Fellini or Truffaut film. We should be able to make the cognitive distinction. Heck, children's films can be objectively assessed. One can say ''this is a poor film'' compared to another, ''a good film'', without recourse to, ''it's just a kid's film''. I have very little sentimental attachment to the original trilogy - as said earlier, I grew up on other types of films. agreed. He must have had some kind of a vision when he created the Star Wars universe. As he was working on it it's likely a lot of things had changed and he was heavily influenced by other works of different directors, you can even say copied a lot of shit but the outcome was something he created with a distinct enough personality to it that it became iconic. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatrickS77 Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, rocknroll41 said: To be fair, the future starwars films are going to be new stories set in a different time period with all new characters, conflicts, etc. Plus, the creative team behind the future films is slightly different now (Kevin Feige from Marvel, for example). So I don’t think the success (or lack thereof) for this film has much of an impact on the future either way, honestly. All that aside, if I like the movie, shouldn’t I be allowed to go see it as much as I want? Regardless of how it impacts their future plans or whatever? Just sayin... Well, they put aside their plans for further spin offs after the failure of "Solo", didn't they? And the next trilogy is scrapped too, isn't it? All because of them making less money then expected with "Solo". So the only way to get something changed is thorugh their pocket book. And whatever, the doofus Kennedy is still going to be at the helm. And didn't you mention the problems with story, pacing and whatnot too? And still you reward the crap with multiple viewings at the cinema, which is all Disney cares about. 1 hour ago, RussTCB said: You're aware that there are tons of people out there who genuinely enjoy the movie, right? Yeah. People with no taste. You are aware that there is an equally ton of people who hate it and do not just excuse all the problems it has, just because it's Star Wars and they desperately want to like it. Edited January 4, 2020 by PatrickS77 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoSoRose Posted January 4, 2020 Author Share Posted January 4, 2020 6 minutes ago, PatrickS77 said: Yeah. People with no taste. You are aware that there is an equally ton of people who hate it and do not just excuse all the problems it has, just because it's Star Wars and they desperately want to like it. K 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocknroll41 Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 2 minutes ago, PatrickS77 said: And didn't you mention the problems with story, pacing and whatnot too? Yeah I had mentioned earlier the rushed production they had and the pacing problems that resulted from it, which I do acknowledge, but that doesn’t mean I dislike the end result. Like I said in my initial review, I think Rise of Skywalker is “a bad movie, but a good Star Wars,” and all I needed it to be in order to like it was a good Star Wars. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatrickS77 Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 16 hours ago, downzy said: Nothing in the OT was original. As you mentioned, Lucas drew heavily from previous filmmakers. The only reason people cared about Star Wars is largely because of the advances in special effects. This “grand vision” by Lucas you seem so certain of is a product of hindsight. Even Lucas admits he was making it up as he went along. Yes and no. Yeah. He was inspired by the serials of the 40s and made things up as he went along and moved things around accordingly. But some of those things were due because he couldn't know how successefull it all would be and if he could make more than one movie. But even when he made up things as he went along, he still had some sort of Vision and an overarching arc and was pushing the envelope to make that vision happen. And like I stated somewhere before, he started at a point where money was still an issue (the OT), where he still had to go from movie to movie and still what came of it is way more cohesive and in continuity than the crap Disney came up with. A multibillion company with unlimited resources (and access to top personell). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatrickS77 Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 5 minutes ago, rocknroll41 said: Yeah I had mentioned earlier the rushed production they had and the pacing problems that resulted from it, which I do acknowledge, but that doesn’t mean I dislike the end result. Like I said in my initial review, I think Rise of Skywalker is “a bad movie, but a good Star Wars,” and all I needed it to be in order to like it was a good Star Wars. Which brings us back to the point that you want to like it because it's Star Wars. Would you go pay the Cinema several times to see a bad movie that doesn't deal with Star Wars? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocknroll41 Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 Just now, PatrickS77 said: Which brings us back to the point that you want to like it because it's Star Wars. Would you go pay the Cinema several times to see a bad movie that doesn't deal with Star Wars? If I have other reasons to like it, then yeah. Justice League is a “badly-made” movie, but I still love it. Same with Venom. Same with Tommy Wiseau’s The Room. Sometimes I just like that stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RussTCB Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 1 hour ago, PatrickS77 said: Yeah. People with no taste. You are aware that there is an equally ton of people who hate it and do not just excuse all the problems it has, just because it's Star Wars and they desperately want to like it. LOL.... "People with no taste" = "People who don't agree with your personal opinion". Of course there are people who dislike it. That happens with all art. It's also funny how you attempt to dismiss anyone's opinion who does like it. To try to shame someone else for enjoying art that you don't is hilarious. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rovim Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 13 minutes ago, RussTCB said: LOL.... "People with no taste" = "People who don't agree with your personal opinion". Of course there are people who dislike it. That happens with all art. It's also funny how you attempt to dismiss anyone's opinion who does like it. To try to shame someone else for enjoying art that you don't is hilarious. telling people they like something just cause they don't have good taste is something only people with no class say. It's childish. Full disclosure: I still do it irl. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocknroll41 Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 It’s not 100% confirmed yet but it’s looking like the next cycle of movies will take place 400 years before The Phantom Menace, and the only returning character will be Yoda. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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