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16 minutes ago, Dazey said:

Oh, to be clear I do think that this not the time for petty politics but i have to admit to a part of me kinda hoping that this is going to hurt Trump in the election.

fair enough.

strange times we live in. you tend not to give in to the panic, but even if you have a mild interest in economics, you'll be  a little worried by stocks crashing everywhere, large happenings closing... hell even E3 is canceled now so even my video games are affected. Red numbers and cancelations everywhere, can't be good. All for a flu? Nah, I don't buy that anymore. These dual lung infections are no joke. What is genuine worrying and what is panick? Hard to tell by this point.

I just want to go on with my life, like I used to. This charade has been going on for far too long if you ask me. The joke is starting to wear down for me.

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the experts have been telling us that the virus is only marginally transmitted through air, and only if people are sneezing and small water particles are emitted. they claimed, that in the light of these facts, mouth masks are not necessary.

A new study, however, published in "public health research & practise", by australian virologist Rania Macintyre of the university of new-south -wales, argues that it would be "wise" to assume that the virus can be transmitted through air, like the SARS virus in 2003. She refers to a case in hong kong, where people were infected in an appartment, who live 10 stages away from each other, and there was a possibility the virus transmitted through the air system. further research is necessary.

So when I read this, it pisses me of to no limited, that certain people on here, claimed for a fact that this was not the case. Self-proclaimed "experts" have been telling nonsense, packaged as "facts", which are now openly doubted by recent scientific findings. I have consequently been ridiculed for "not accepting the facts".

and you can bet that this needs to be called out.

I'm glad I didn't listen to them, and used my common sense.

https://www.hln.be/nieuws/buitenland/kan-coronavirus-zich-ook-via-lucht-verspreiden-onrust-over-besmetting-in-hongkong~a13e2c1f/

Edited by action
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1 hour ago, action said:

the experts have been telling us that the virus is only marginally transmitted through air, and only if people are sneezing and small water particles are emitted. they claimed, that in the light of these facts, mouth masks are not necessary.

A new study, however, published in "public health research & practise", by australian virologist Rania Macintyre of the university of new-south -wales, argues that it would be "wise" to assume that the virus can be transmitted through air, like the SARS virus in 2003. She refers to a case in hong kong, where people were infected in an appartment, who live 10 stages away from each other, and there was a possibility the virus transmitted through the air system. further research is necessary.

So when I read this, it pisses me of to no limited, that certain people on here, claimed for a fact that this was not the case. Self-proclaimed "experts" have been telling nonsense, packaged as "facts", which are now openly doubted by recent scientific findings. I have consequently been ridiculed for "not accepting the facts".

and you can bet that this needs to be called out.

I'm glad I didn't listen to them, and used my common sense.

https://www.hln.be/nieuws/buitenland/kan-coronavirus-zich-ook-via-lucht-verspreiden-onrust-over-besmetting-in-hongkong~a13e2c1f/

Professor Macintyre has zero evidence for corona virus spreading through air. In fact she has little evidence for SARS spreading through the air, either, but speculates that perhaps it can based on that case in Hong Kong. Perhaps SARS can spread through the air, but based on the evidence that would be an extremely unlike mode of transmission otherwise it would have been established a long time ago. You can read about how SARS spreads here: https://apps.who.int/iris/handle/10665/70863

And perhaps corona virus can spread through air, too? But again, that is not likely based on what we know about it, what we know of related viruses, and if it does, that is a very low-risk mode of transmission.

What is sad here is that a scientist with a hypothesis with little to no evidence ("SARS can spread through air"), will be picked up by the sensationalist media hungry to write articles that can act as gasoline on the bonfire, scaring people like yourself even more.

 

Edited by SoulMonster
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One problem, at least where i live, is that some scientists find themselves doing 'gig work' to keep a good income. So they too are sometimes complicit with any media hype that their most recent paper generates. Like in the above case, it may be true that airborne transmission should be studied further, and to do more work the scientist might have to hype their initial findings to secure funding to move forward. (I dont know that specific case, but this does happen sometimes).

 

 

 

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We have the most densely populated country in Europe. I live in the city where the first patient was discovered, we're still only on 382 cases. That's 0.002% of all Dutch people. If this virus was capable of spreading through air we'd be kinda screwed.

I don't believe it spreads that easily. If it did we'd all be sick already.

It's still all a storm in a teacup.

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Would the whole of Italy go on lockdown if it was just 'media hype'? Come on. I mean think about the logistics and ramifications of that for a second. Would they do that if some reputable scientists and researchers didn't suspect it was airborne? Again, they just don't know enough, certainly not enough to say "hey everybody we have some definitive answers here!"

I'm still with @action on this. 

 

ps. months and months ago, I was reading about flu deaths, and thinking, what the heck, how is this possible in this day and age. And then reading about some of the young people who died from it, the ultimate cause was double pneumonia. And that is what is ultimately happening with corona right? Is it possible some of these earlier deaths from a year or so ago that was attributed to the flu was possibly corona virus and we just didn't know it at the time? Just thinking out loud here. 

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5 minutes ago, soon said:

One problem, at least where i live, is that some scientists find themselves doing 'gig work' to keep a good income. So they too are sometimes complicit with any media hype that their most recent paper generates. Like in the above case, it may be true that airborne transmission should be studied further, and to do more work the scientist might have to hype their initial findings to secure funding to move forward. (I dont know that specific case, but this does happen sometimes).

All scientists have to fight for access to research grants. There is only so much grants available through national research councils. Not enough for everyone. And most scientists aren't tenured in the sense that they have a fixed salary. They have to get research grants to pay themselves a salary. The outcome of this is of course that those scientists who are the best at marketing themselves and their research, might benefit the most. In my experience, research councils do a great job of objectively assessing grant proposals, and use international committees and boards for this, but it can't be ruled out that a scientist who are good at tooting her own horn in the media might end up with more financial support in the end.

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3 minutes ago, UcudBmine said:

We have the most densely populated country in Europe. I live in the city where the first patient was discovered, we're still only on 382 cases. That's 0.002% of all Dutch people. If this virus was capable of spreading through air we'd be kinda screwed.

I don't believe it spreads that easily. If it did we'd all be sick already.

It's still all a storm in a teacup.

To give some more background info: The virus can spread as part of tiny liquid droplets that are blown through the air. That's why viruses can spread with sneezes. Mucus from the lung is flung out at great force, travelling a meter or so, and potentially it contains billions of miniscule virus hitchhikers. But air can also contain small dust particles that can be blown in the wind, or just tiny droplets if the humidity is very high. That's what perhaps happened at that Hong Kong condominium. There was an air conditioner resulting in high humidity with lots of aerosols, and these are thought to have helped spread the virus around. But that is not normal conditions, that is not what you would normally experience outdoors. Hence the conclusion that these viruses don't spread through air directly and why isn't dangerous to be in the vicinity of infected people, unless they, like, sneeze into your eyes.

8 minutes ago, Whiskey Rose said:

Would the whole of Italy go on lockdown if it was just 'media hype'? Come on. I mean think about the logistics and ramifications of that for a second. Would they do that if some reputable scientists and researchers didn't suspect it was airborne? 

Yes. They would do that because even if it doesn't spread through air, it still spreads so effectively that they need to cool the epidemic down somewhat to allow for their hospitals and doctors to cope with the number of infected people who need assistance.

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3 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

All scientists have to fight for access to research grants. There is only so much grants available through national research councils. Not enough for everyone. And most scientists aren't tenured in the sense that they have a fixed salary. They have to get research grants to pay themselves a salary. The outcome of this is of course that those scientists who are the best at marketing themselves and their research, might benefit the most. In my experience, research councils do a great job of objectively assessing grant proposals, and use international committees and boards for this, but it can't be ruled out that a scientist who are good at tooting her own horn in the media might end up with more financial support in the end.

And because of those grants being limited, there is also the pressure to do gigs for commercial enterprises. Here its almost comical how every 6 months there will be a headline of either "Eggs are unhealthy" or "Eggs are a nutritious super food." These two 'findings' just leap frog one another - you can set your watch to it. And of course one headlines is produced by industry funded research. Many scientists here are open about the cynicism involved in their trade, that they can be both 'honest' and also produce the headlines that industry paid them for. It happens in social studies too, anywhere that professionalized academia is a commodity in the open market. 

 

 

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To summarize: There is no evidence suggesting the corona virus spreads through air except on droplets from infected people. It would be surprising given the structure and type of virus we are dealing with, and there is no empirical evidence suggesting such a mode of transmission is possible. What we are seeing right now is entirely consistent with normal spread through respiratory droplets.

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1 minute ago, soon said:

And because of those grants being limited, there is also the pressure to do gigs for commercial enterprises. Here its almost comical how every 6 months there will be a headline of either "Eggs are unhealthy" or "Eggs are a nutritious super food." These two 'findings' just leap frog one another - you can set your watch to it. And of course one headlines is produced by industry funded research. Many scientists here are open about the cynicism involved in their trade, that they can be both 'honest' and also produce the headlines that industry paid them for. It happens in social studies too, anywhere that professionalized academia is a commodity in the open market.

A lot of research is funded by the industry. It is inevitable, I am afraid. I don't really see it as a problem though, because there are mechanisms in the peer-review process that maintains the quality of published research (for the most part). The problem is, in my opinion, more with the media who latch onto any specific findings and present them without context or comment from other scientists. Then you get what you describe. 

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16 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Hence the conclusion that these viruses don't spread through air directly and why isn't dangerous to be in the vicinity of infected people, unless they, like, sneeze into your eyes.

I always hate it when people sneeze in my eyes. So you're saying I should trade my hazmat suit for a good pair of sunglasses? I only own a pair of Kanye West sunglasses.

7dde47c43ff5c52998501872206548c5.jpg

They don't work.

Edited by UcudBmine
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4 minutes ago, Whiskey Rose said:

Exactly. And that is the cause for concern. 

I am not sure if the spread in itself is a cause of concern, I wouldn't be surprised if some strains of the common cold or flu spreads as efficiently. But I could very well be wrong :)

Anyway, what is of concern to me is of course that it is a deadly disease. It causes a not insignificant amount of mortality among those effected. More than what we are used to from normal flu. And we have no vaccine at the moment, meaning that high-risk people are basically at the mercy of not being infected. That puts much more pressure on the rest of us to prevent or delay the spread, and on our hospitals and doctors to do what they can.

I still believe that the numbers of deaths from this disease will be not much higher than the flu, but it is uncertain. And I believe we will develop immunity and get an vaccine so that it will blow over in 2020. I don't think this will become a fixed disease that will haunt us every year, like the flu. But I say "believe" because we don't know, we can't know, and then it is better safe than sorry. 

1 minute ago, UcudBmine said:

I always hate it when people sneeze in my eyes. So you're saying I should trade my hazmat suit for a good pair of sunglasses? I only own a pair of Kanye West sunglasses.

7dde47c43ff5c52998501872206548c5.jpg

They don't work.

I find that those glasses go well with hazmat suits, so hopefully you can do both.

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Glad I hadnt ordered this years seeds yet. I hope to order some San Marzano and Roma tomato seeds so I wont be without when the expected shortages out of Italy start effecting availability here.

San Marzano especially is prized for its terroir. Will be a neat experiment to see if I can amend the soils and condition the humidity, sun light, etc to mimic the San Marzanos terroir.

Stock up on Parm too, folks - all the popular exports that supports their economy and are also delicious! 

What are delicious exports from Iran?

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1 hour ago, UcudBmine said:

We have the most densely populated country in Europe. I live in the city where the first patient was discovered, we're still only on 382 cases. That's 0.002% of all Dutch people. If this virus was capable of spreading through air we'd be kinda screwed.

I don't believe it spreads that easily. If it did we'd all be sick already.

It's still all a storm in a teacup.

I can't stress enough how badly the Dutch government is handling this situation, in 2 weeks time it's going to look a lot like where Italy is now. Taking drastic measures now is the only thing that could possibly prevent that from happening

Edited by grouse
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4 minutes ago, grouse said:

I can't stress enough how badly the Dutch government is handling this situation, in 2 weeks time it's going to look a lot like where Italy is now. Taking drastic measures now is the only thing that could possibly prevent that from happening

How exactly should they handle it then? There's not much going wrong. And even if it were to escalate, the rules of nature would apply. It's survival of the fittest.

Imagine what the world would have looked like if the black death didn't wipe out millions of people? I don't think we would've made it to 2020.

I don't want to offend anyone, but I really can't worry about this. These things are bound to happen eventually. It could have been so much worse than this.

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15 minutes ago, grouse said:

I can't stress enough how badly the Dutch government is handling this situation, in 2 weeks time it's going to look a lot like where Italy is now. Taking drastic measures now is the only thing that could possibly prevent that from happening

Same in Belgium. Organizations are taking matters into their own hands because politicians keep shifting responsibility onto others.

When in doubt, I look at experts and most now seem to agree our government isn't doing enough.

Also, they advise against (not ban!) events of 1000 people. So venues think they're being smart and allowing only 950 people in. Assholes.

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Why the fuck are people buying up all the loo roll?  I mean what the fucks loo roll gonna do?  Excuse me, I don't watch the news so maybe its a stupid question and I'm missing something obvious.  They've fuckin' cancelled the Arsenal game tonight too, this fuckin' Coronavirus is going too far now, they need to get the fuckin' nerds out of their fuckin' cryo-chambers and get crackin'.  Come on Soulie, you're one of them, get your fuckin' finger out, you're alright givin' it the fuckin' biggun on MyGnR, acting like you're fuckin' Charlie Big Potatoes, sort this out now you cunt :lol:  And you too McLeod, you're all fuckin' sciencey and chemicaley, do something.

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3 hours ago, UcudBmine said:

We have the most densely populated country in Europe. I live in the city where the first patient was discovered, we're still only on 382 cases. That's 0.002% of all Dutch people. If this virus was capable of spreading through air we'd be kinda screwed.

I don't believe it spreads that easily. If it did we'd all be sick already.

It's still all a storm in a teacup.

*503, so far.

But I'm not too worried either. I met quite a few people this week through work and none of them wanted to shake hands because of what Rutte said... 

Edited by EvanG
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I got an email from Target stores. They are saying how they are paying their workers overtime to clean all their stores and we shouldn't worry about shopping there.

Honestly, I usually buy stuff from Target online. But it was cool to get this email from their President to let their customers know they are trying to contain this virus.

 

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15 minutes ago, EvanG said:

*503, so far.

But I'm not too worried either. I met quite a few people this week through work and none of them wanted to shake hands because of what Rutte said... 

Ye I saw the update after my post. But I noticed the same with handshakes. What I don't get is that they suggested to bump elbows instead :facepalm::lol: Imagine how ridiculous everyone would look.

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2 hours ago, Len Cnut said:

Why the fuck are people buying up all the loo roll?  I mean what the fucks loo roll gonna do?  Excuse me, I don't watch the news so maybe its a stupid question and I'm missing something obvious.  They've fuckin' cancelled the Arsenal game tonight too, this fuckin' Coronavirus is going too far now, they need to get the fuckin' nerds out of their fuckin' cryo-chambers and get crackin'.  Come on Soulie, you're one of them, get your fuckin' finger out, you're alright givin' it the fuckin' biggun on MyGnR, acting like you're fuckin' Charlie Big Potatoes, sort this out now you cunt :lol:  And you too McLeod, you're all fuckin' sciencey and chemicaley, do something.

It is the Australians who are obsessed with bog roll for some reason. Corona does not even give you the Eartha Kitts.

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