Why is everything so top secret with Guns?

[janrichmond]

12 hours ago, MaskingApathy said:

Did a bunch of posts get deleted or something? It's like a whole page is gone.

We haven't removed any posts from this thread, a couple have been deleted by those that posted them.

[Alejandro GNR]

Look, I'm a fan just like most of you, I'm always searching for GnR news everywhere...I love Axl, Slash, Izzy, Duff, the other guys...

But if I have to be objective, well, I think I admire Axls capacity of encapsulating his private life...I mean, they guy is a HUGE rockstar, maybe the last one with that kind of enigmatic figure...its increidble how he gets to still be so intimate when not performing...

Just imagine that, the man has more money than the amount you could spend in 5/6 ordinary lives, so many people would like to interview him and know about him and yet no one spots him, no one knows what he is up to, no one knows if he is recording or not, etc

Its frustrating for us, but it must be GREAT for him

And to be honest, his money just reflects his talent...

Edited May 24, 2020 by Alejandro GNR

[Sisyphus]

On 24. 5. 2020 at 7:12 AM, Rovim said:

It's Axl's version of Gn'R now though. The way this band operates reflects Axl's preferences imo. Slash, Duff, the rest of the lineup(s) and even TB are not responsible for the lack of releases, the secrecy, and inner circle rules in general imo. It's probably just Axl and the record company for the most part. Tbh, if Axl's goal is not to satisfy us fans but instead to release his music only on his terms, for himself, then that's too bad but I don't believe it's cause he only cares about the money.

Could have reunited years ago if that was true and would have released a lot more music when it still made a lot of money. Forgive Slash real quick in like 1997 or 1998 to preserve your lavish lifestyle at all cost. Problem solved for artists that don't care about quality.

I buy the whole perfectionist thing cause it's the best explanation I can think of for his artistic approach and I really get the feeling he doesn't want to release a dud of a record, no matter what.

I respect that you feel that way but I wholeheartedly disagree.

His "version of GN'R"? His version of GN'R is a nostalgia touring band. There's no denying it. If you want to support his "version" of GN'R that's OK, but it goes against everything he used to stand for. As I have stated before he mocked bands like Kiss and Iron Maiden but he's in no position to do that anymore. He sold out in so many ways. Pepole change, I get that, but he used to have a certain stance or attitude toward what the band is all about and it's all gone now. He ate his words regarding the band, the reunion, the whole "music comes first" nonsene. 

His "preferences" you say. What are his preferences? To milk the GN'R name with subpar singing and absolutely no new material? Cause that is what's happening. They can't even bother to put together a live album. Because it's not profitable. I don't know how much he cares about money but he's obviously extremely devoted to milking the cash cow and avoiding everything that isn't as profitable as live shows. That's the way I see it.

He didn't have to realease more music in the late 90's or early 00's because the money was still pouring in. A lot of records were still being sold at that point. It was only in the last decade or so that the bands have been forced to tour extensively for their financial survival. Interestintly Axl's been on the road almost non-stop since 2009. Think about it.

He didn't have to reconcile with Slash in 97 or 98 becasue his lifestyle was never under threat. If it was he would have done so, as history has taught us.. He was barely keeping Guns afloat with residencies and theatre shows and then ultimately he had no choice but to settle for a reunion. With Bumblefoot and Ashba leaving he just could't bring in two new gutarists in go on like nothing happened. To many members have come and gone. It became a joke. He was in a do or die situation and he settled for a reunion despite all the nasty comments he has previously made. Otherwise the band was done. He didn't do it to please the fans, let alone any kind of musical aspirations. Don't delude yourself. That is a totally different situation to 97/98 when he was driven and motivated, was writing songs and planning to do something big but it never really materialized.

Axl's rich but he's not that rich. He needs to work to sustain his entourage and Malibu home. In 97/98 he didn't have to do shit. And he didn't. At least not in terms of any live shows or releases. Also keep in mind that in 97/98 there wasn't that much to forgive between Axl and Slash. The whole resentment hugely intensified during the VR era.

The whole "perfecionist" thing has been put to rest multiple times. Even by Axl himself. Supposedly he was already a perfectionist during AFD but he still released a bunch of records from 1987 to 1993. No perfectionist would go on stage so underprepared and sounding as horrible as he does. Considering all the shortcomings the "perfectionist" argument just does not hold water. You can believe it but it's bogus.

I understand he doesn't want to release a "dud", as you put it, but all bands have their ups and downs, not every record can go 18x platinum in the US. I'm absolutely convinced he could have released something is he wanted to. He could even do it on his own label but he prefers the backing of a big label. Why? $$$$. He admitted that he kept the Guns name in part because of the finances attached to it from the record label. It was just easier that way. Financially speaking.

There's never been more different ways and options to release new music than today. And yet he doesn't. At all. For decades. He could do anything he fucking wanted. He doesn't even have to release a record, maybe just a song or two. He doesn't want to do that either. Why? I think it's the lack of $$$ that comes with it.

And lastly... "artistic approach" you say. Sorry but that made me laugh. What artistic approach? Axl's not an artist. Artists produce art. Axl was an artist, one of the best of all time. His last "art" came out in 2008 but the vast majority of it was written and record pre-2000, meaning that he's done almost nothing of artistic value in the last 20 years.

 

Edit: All of that being said. Axl is allowed to do WHATEVER he wants. But I'm entitled to my opinion about his decisions regarding my favourite band. I love him. Always will. Peace.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Sisyphus

[Blackstar]

47 minutes ago, Sisyphus said:

He didn't have to realease more music in the late 90's or early 00's because the money was still pouring in. A lot of records were still being sold at that point. It was only in the last decade or so that the bands have been forced to tour extensively for their financial survival. Interestintly Axl's been on the road almost non-stop since 2009. Think about it.

He didn't have to reconcile with Slash in 97 or 98 becasue his lifestyle was never under threat. If it was he would have done so, as history has taught us.. He was barely keeping Guns afloat with residencies and theatre shows and then ultimately he had no choice but to settle for a reunion. With Bumblefoot and Ashba leaving he just could't bring in two new gutarists in go on like nothing happened. To many members have come and gone. It became a joke. He was in a do or die situation and he settled for a reunion despite all the nasty comments he has previously made. Otherwise the band was done. He didn't do it to please the fans, let alone any kind of musical aspirations. Don't delude yourself. That is a totally different situation to 97/98 when he was driven and motivated, was writing songs and planning to do something big but it never really materialized.

Axl's rich but he's not that rich. He needs to work to sustain his entourage and Malibu home. In 97/98 he didn't have to do shit. And he didn't. At least not in terms of any live shows or releases. Also keep in mind that in 97/98 there wasn't that much to forgive between Axl and Slash. The whole resentment hugely intensified during the VR era.

This is not entirely true, especially the first paragraph. Axl needed money in the late 90s/early 00s, though not for himself as an individual (as the royalties from the old records - which don't come only from sales but also from radio play and other sources - were enough for him to maintain his lifestyle), but to keep the band going. The nuGnR business had a lot of expenses and no income at all, apart from what the record company was paying for. That's why he had to do the ill-fated tour in 2002 before the album was finished (or at least it wasn't finished to him, because the latest leaks have offered solid proof that there was an album by the end of 2001), which, most likely, not only didn't return any profit, but it was a big loss, taking into account the lawsuits that stemmed from the no-shows in Vancouver and especially Philadelphia. 

Then the record label reportedly stopped financing the project circa 2004, and this is likely why Axl made a deal with Sanctuary leasing them his publishing royalties for the next 20 years (he practically got his estimated royalties in the next 20 years in advance, including whatever new he was going to release during that period) - then Sanctuary was bought out by UMG. And also it's likely why he did another tour in 2006, again before the album was released.

The extensive touring from 2009-14 was most likely necessary for financial reasons, as well. But again, not for Axl as an individual. Axl could have retired long ago and still maintained a fairly rich lifestyle. (Look at Steven Adler, for comparison: he's well off for the rest of his life - he doesn't have an entourage like Axl, but on the other hand his 15% publishing from AFD and Lies alone are enough to keep him to this level). CD was eventually released in 2008, and the label seemingly broke even with the Best Buy deal, but the NuGnR business most likely didn't get a dime of profit from it and at the same time had big expenses, Azoff's and other lawsuits and so on.

The big question is, of course, why CD was delayed so much and then why Axl didn't release more music. But the real information about that whole period is so little (as opposed to the many rumours), that it's really all speculation and opinions.

It's also not true that a reunion would have been emotionally easier - at least on Axl's side of the fence - before the VR era. The roots of the whole thing were mainly in the 1994/95 power game and everything that went with it (the Snakepit album etc.) as well as the publicity over it, as Slash always did interviews saying things from his side - that didn't start in the VR era. There was seemingly more resentment on Axl's part between 2009-10, which, imo, didn't have to do with VR but mostly with Slash's book. 

[Sisyphus]

34 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

This is not entirely true, especially the first paragraph. Axl needed money in the late 90s/early 00s, though not for himself as an individual (as the royalties from the old records - which don't come only from sales but also from radio play and other sources - were enough for him to maintain his lifestyle), but to keep the band going. The nuGnR business had a lot of expenses and no income at all, apart from what the record company was paying for. That's why he had to do the ill-fated tour in 2002 before the album was finished (or at least it wasn't finished to him, because the latest leaks have offered solid proof that there was an album by the end of 2001), which, most likely, not only didn't return any profit, but it was a big loss, taking into account the lawsuits that stemmed from the no-shows in Vancouver and especially Philadelphia. 

Then the record label reportedly stopped financing the project circa 2004, and this is likely why Axl made a deal with Sanctuary leasing them his publishing royalties for the next 20 years (he practically got his estimated royalties in the next 20 years in advance, including whatever new he was going to release during that period) - then Sanctuary was bought out by UMG. And also it's likely why he did another tour in 2006, again before the album was released.

The extensive touring from 2009-14 was most likely necessary for financial reasons, as well. But again, not for Axl as an individual. Axl could have retired long ago and still maintained a fairly rich lifestyle. (Look at Steven Adler, for comparison: he's well off for the rest of his life - he doesn't have an entourage like Axl, but on the other hand his 15% publishing from AFD and Lies alone are enough to keep him to this level). CD was eventually released in 2008, and the label seemingly broke even with the Best Buy deal, but the NuGnR business most likely didn't get a dime of profit from it and at the same time had big expenses, Azoff's and other lawsuits and so on.

The big question is, of course, why CD was delayed so much and then why Axl didn't release more music. But the real information about that whole period is so little (as opposed to the many rumours), that it's really all speculation and opinions.

It's also not true that a reunion would have been emotionally easier - at least on Axl's side of the fence - before the VR era. The roots of the whole thing were mainly in the 1994/95 power game and everything that went with it (the Snakepit album etc.) as well as the publicity over it, as Slash always did interviews saying things from his side - that didn't start in the VR era. There was seemingly more resentment on Axl's part between 2009-10, which, imo, didn't have to do with VR but mostly with Slash's book. 

I'm not gonna pretend I know his financial details. In my opinion he didn't have to tour in 2002 or else he could have done in 2001 when he at least had some momentum going with the Las Vegas and Rio gigs. I believe the record company was paying a shitload of money during that time to keep the process rolling, including paycheks and other costs. 

I would agree that by 2004 things started changing a lot and then after the release od Chinese and the lawsuits you mentioned he had no choice but to tour a lot for Guns to remain active.

Steven and Axl are totally incomparable really. I don't know how well off Steven is. I don't think you do either. Or Axl for that matter. But I would say they both need to work to live the way they're used to living. Royalties wouldn't cut it. My feeling anyway. 

As far as the reunion goes, it was suggested (I forget who?) that Axl still thought of Slash as a candidate to play on some Chinese songs as late as 2000/2001 but it all fell apart. Slash himself admitted he was very toxic towards GN'R and Axl during the promotion of VR which, I repeat, intensified their disagreements. Also Slash and Duff sued Axl in 2004 due to some mix up regarding royalties which strained the relationship even more. 

I believe Axl resented the things Slash told the media regarding their relationship and the situation of the band. I think that hurt Axl way more than the power struggle within the group or the arguments about Snakepit. That was all happening behind closed doors between "family" members. It was when Slash went public. It started in 1995 surely but later it got way worse. Axl was still very complimentary of Slash in 1999. A few years later he called him "cancer". And Slash self-admittedly bad-mouthed Axl a lot during VR era. And obviously the book, I agree on that.

 

Edited May 27, 2020 by Sisyphus

[Blackstar]

9 hours ago, Sisyphus said:

I'm not gonna pretend I know his financial details. In my opinion he didn't have to tour in 2002 or else he could have done in 2001 when he at least had some momentum going with the Las Vegas and Rio gigs. I believe the record company was paying a shitload of money during that time to keep the process rolling, including paycheks and other costs. 

I would agree that by 2004 things started changing a lot and then after the release od Chinese and the lawsuits you mentioned he had no choice but to tour a lot for Guns to remain active.

Steven and Axl are totally incomparable really. I don't know how well off Steven is. I don't think you do either. Or Axl for that matter. But I would say they both need to work to live the way they're used to living. Royalties wouldn't cut it. My feeling anyway. 

As far as the reunion goes, it was suggested (I forget who?) that Axl still thought of Slash as a candidate to play on some Chinese songs as late as 2000/2001 but it all fell apart. Slash himself admitted he was very toxic towards GN'R and Axl during the promotion of VR which, I repeat, intensified their disagreements. Also Slash and Duff sued Axl in 2004 due to some mix up regarding royalties which strained the relationship even more. 

I believe Axl resented the things Slash told the media regarding their relationship and the situation of the band. I think that hurt Axl way more than the power struggle within the group or the arguments about Snakepit. That was all happening behind closed doors between "family" members. It was when Slash went public. It started in 1995 surely but it later it got way worse. Axl was still very complimentary of Slash in 1999. A few years later he called him "cancer". And Slash self-admittedly bad-mouthed Axl a lot during VR era. And obviously the book, I agree on that.

It's not a matter of knowing details about the band's financial situation - I couldn't possibly have this kind of information either. It's just common sense: when a business (NuGnR in this case) spends a lot of money and doesn't make any, there is a problem. Axl didn't want to tour in 2001 because the album wasn't finished yet, but he did a tour in 2002 although the album still wasn't ready (to him). His reasoning for the 2002 tour was that the band wasn't tight enough in 2001 and it had come together now; however, what's a better way for a band to become tight than a tour? So I think it's logical to assume that Axl didn't really want to tour, but got to a point where he needed to for financial reasons. And the outcome of that tour is an indication that Axl wasn't in a mental state to tour. Interestingly enough, in 2001 both Slash and Izzy alluded to Axl's finances, suggesting that he might or was about to run out of money as far as the band went, and that might lead him to look at a reunion.

Yes, there is the information (it has come from Marc Canter) that Axl considered the possibility of Slash playing on some CD songs (which were songs from the mid 90s Slash had part in writing) on the condition that Slash would apologise for what he had said in the press. That didn't happen, of course, and even if it had it wouldn't have really been a reunion, as Slash would have been one of the guitarists - and I doubt Slash ever considered it. 

But there is also information from different sources (Scott Weiland, Merck - without counting the rumours in the press at the time) that Axl didn't rule out a reunion during the VR era. According to Merck, Axl's condition still was for Slash to apologise; and, according to Weiland, they had actually come close to a reunion.

Slash and Duff sued Axl in 2004, but the legal battles had started earlier (they had blocked Axl from licencing re-recorded versions of AFD songs and he had blocked them from licencing original versions on movies - actually that was the basis of their lawsuit).

I know that Slash has said that he came off as resentful in his VR era interviews, but this is not accurate. I don't see any differences, at least in the vibe, between his VR interviews and his earlier ones. I honestly think that, because Slash has done literally thousands of interviews over the years, he probably forgets what he has said before. I would say that in the VR era Duff, and particularly Matt, were more negative as far as Axl goes. The one thing that changed, in regards to Slash's interviews, is that in 2002 he started telling a totally different story from the one he was telling until then about how Axl ended up owning the name, and that probably pissed Axl off.

EDIT: About Axl and Steven being well off: This is also not a matter of actually "knowing" their personal finances; it's common sense and observation. I don't think whatever money - if any - Adler has made from Adler's Appetite albums and touring clubs has made any difference in his finances. And what about Izzy? He has released many albums which, although good, didn't sell and hasn't really toured. It doesn't seem that he has made the albums because he needed to work.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Blackstar

[guitarpatch]

If he were a perfectionist, then there would have been different vocal takes between the 99 demos and the final released product in 2008. Tinkering would be a better description 

From my limited viewpoint, it seems like he’s always looking for the perfect scenario to move forward. The problem is that there will always be something in the way of that. Then the landscape changes, and things need to be updated. Round and round we go 

As far as finances. There’s a difference between the New GNR entity and the original partnership. Just because the New Band’s entity may have needed $ from touring, it doesn’t mean Axl was broke. It could just mean he didn’t want to personally fund it 

Edited May 27, 2020 by guitarpatch

[Rovim]

6 minutes ago, guitarpatch said:

If he were a perfectionist, then there would have been different vocal takes between the 99 demos and the final released product in 2008. Tinkering would be a better description 

From my limited viewpoint, it seems like he’s always looking for the perfect scenario to move forward. The problem is that there will always be something in the way of that. Then the landscape changes, and things need to be updated. Round and round we go 

maybe Axl thought the vocals were perfect. Just because there weren't more takes done after 1999 (for the most part) doesn't mean Axl is not a perfectionist. Could have thought he already got there with the vocals but not with the music.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Rovim

[Sydney Fan]

In terms of finances i understand california has land tax and im sure the amount Axl pays in land tax for his malibu place would be a hefty bill.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Sydney Fan

[guitarpatch]

5 minutes ago, Rovim said:

maybe Axl thought the vocals were perfect. Just because there weren't more takes done after 1999 (for the most part) doesn't mean Axl is not a perfectionist. Could have thought he already got there with the vocals but not with the music.

Perhaps. Although is it really being a perfectionist if it’s mainly chasing for a new sound every 18 months because of what’s more in line with the current state of rock or you need to now feature the current lineup of the band because people left? Re-amping guitars because the technology is better or people like high gain rock again? Seems like a fine line to call it so. 
 

Either way, the situation in that band was never stable enough to work on something that took years to release. That’s what I hear when listening to the final release. The songs are still the songs and for the most part they sound similar to what they had a decade earlier. Just different flairs from different members added on top over the years and a monstrosity of a mix 

[Sydney Fan]

We know axl handed in CD what would have been what?....98 or 99 or thereabouts. 

I personally think UMG wanted to slow axls wheels in the early 00s where band members would leave and a reunion may have transpired. But axl wasnt in the headspace to even want a relationship with previous members. I think once the band bickering was public rather than behind closed doors thats when any chance of a reunion was squashed.

I personally think CD should have came out in 06, when axl had put alot of work into his physical shape and vocals. With the technical proficency of buckethead in the band axl had as blank canvas to take the band musically in which ever way for a CD followup he desired. Except nothing transpired for a followup, band members knew no new material was going to be worked on and they walked.  I dont know why axl could never follow through with taking the band in whatever direction he envisioned for GNR.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Sydney Fan

[Rovim]

50 minutes ago, guitarpatch said:

Perhaps. Although is it really being a perfectionist if it’s mainly chasing for a new sound every 18 months because of what’s more in line with the current state of rock or you need to now feature the current lineup of the band because people left? Re-amping guitars because the technology is better or people like high gain rock again? Seems like a fine line to call it so. 
 

Either way, the situation in that band was never stable enough to work on something that took years to release. That’s what I hear when listening to the final release. The songs are still the songs and for the most part they sound similar to what they had a decade earlier. Just different flairs from different members added on top over the years and a monstrosity of a mix 

I think it extends beyond Chinese or just one album. Axl said protools made it easier to record. Before that you had Alice Cooper saying how Axl told him to do another take and another until he said he thought at some point it had to be good enough...

or Brian May saying Axl is like Freddie was: utterly meticulous. I think it's about getting the details of your vision exactly right by using all of your resources in order to get there. It's not just cause band members left that he kept adding shit or tinkered with the same tunes imo.

What kind of musician replaces the work of someone like Josh with Brain only cause they want to see how Josh's drum parts will sound with Brain's feel and then pastes together 2 drummers on the same tune with Frank? this is chasing a certain ideal imo.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Rovim

[El Guapo]

8 minutes ago, Rovim said:

I think it extends beyond Chinese or just one album. Axl said protools made it easier to record. Before that you had Alice Cooper saying how Axl told him to do another take and another until he said he thought at some point it had to be good enough...

or Brian May saying Axl is like Freddie was: utterly meticulous. I think it's about getting the details of your vision exactly right by using all of your resources in order to get there. It's not just cause band members left that he kept adding shit or tinkering with the same tunes imo.

What kind of musician replaces the work of someone like Josh with Brain only cause they want to see how Josh's drum parts will sound with Brain's feel and then pastes together 2 drummers on the same tune with Frank? this is chasing a certain ideal imo.

Imo, this is better described as "insane". 

[Rovim]

47 minutes ago, Sydney Fan said:

We know axl handed in CD what would have been what?....98 or 99 or thereabouts. 

I personally think UMG wanted to slow axls wheels in the early 00s where band members would leave and a reunion may have transpired. But axl wasnt in the headspace to even want a relationship with previous members. I think once the band bickering was public rather than behind closed doors thats when any chance of a reunion was squashed.

I personally think CD should have came out in 06, when axl had put alot of work into his physical shape and vocals. With the technical proficency of buckethead in the band axl had as blank canvas to take the band musically in which ever way for a CD followup he desired. Except nothing transpired for a followup, band members knew no new material was going to be worked on and they walked.  I dont know why axl could never follow through with taking the band in whatever direction he envisioned for GNR.

maybe cause sometimes instead of waiting for better conditions and overthinking how to tackle a goal, you just need to go for it with what you have and that's something I believe Axl found difficult to do, especially at the time, only a few years after Slash left.

My guess is he wanted to get it right both artistically and commercially and it's possible some people were telling him shit that didn't help much with being confident enough to give it a shot with the album he had in 1999/2000

Edited May 27, 2020 by Rovim

[GNR_RNR]

2 hours ago, guitarpatch said:

If he were a perfectionist, then there would have been different vocal takes between the 99 demos and the final released product in 2008. Tinkering would be a better description 

 

Not true at all. People seem to think perfectionists release 'perfect' products which is just silly. It just means they are not happy with their work until it fits their personal 'vision'.

 

 

[MaskingApathy]

Steven is very well off. I don't know his exact finances but he doesn't need to tour or work otherwise. Anytime he plays a show it's just for fun.

[Sisyphus]

On 27. 5. 2020 at 3:16 PM, Blackstar said:

It's not a matter of knowing details about the band's financial situation - I couldn't possibly have this kind of information either. It's just common sense: when a business (NuGnR in this case) spends a lot of money and doesn't make any, there is a problem. Axl didn't want to tour in 2001 because the album wasn't finished yet, but he did a tour in 2002 although the album still wasn't ready (to him). His reasoning for the 2002 tour was that the band wasn't tight enough in 2001 and it had come together now; however, what's a better way for a band to become tight than a tour? So I think it's logical to assume that Axl didn't really want to tour, but got to a point where he needed to for financial reasons. And the outcome of that tour is an indication that Axl wasn't in a mental state to tour. Interestingly enough, in 2001 both Slash and Izzy alluded to Axl's finances, suggesting that he might or was about to run out of money as far as the band went, and that might lead him to look at a reunion.

Yes, there is the information (it has come from Marc Canter) that Axl considered the possibility of Slash playing on some CD songs (which were songs from the mid 90s Slash had part in writing) on the condition that Slash would apologise for what he had said in the press. That didn't happen, of course, and even if it had it wouldn't have really been a reunion, as Slash would have been one of the guitarists - and I doubt Slash ever considered it. 

But there is also information from different sources (Scott Weiland, Merck - without counting the rumours in the press at the time) that Axl didn't rule out a reunion during the VR era. According to Merck, Axl's condition still was for Slash to apologise; and, according to Weiland, they had actually come close to a reunion.

Slash and Duff sued Axl in 2004, but the legal battles had started earlier (they had blocked Axl from licencing re-recorded versions of AFD songs and he had blocked them from licencing original versions on movies - actually that was the basis of their lawsuit).

I know that Slash has said that he came off as resentful in his VR era interviews, but this is not accurate. I don't see any differences, at least in the vibe, between his VR interviews and his earlier ones. I honestly think that, because Slash has done literally thousands of interviews over the years, he probably forgets what he has said before. I would say that in the VR era Duff, and particularly Matt, were more negative as far as Axl goes. The one thing that changed, in regards to Slash's interviews, is that in 2002 he started telling a totally different story from the one he was telling until then about how Axl ended up owning the name, and that probably pissed Axl off.

EDIT: About Axl and Steven being well off: This is also not a matter of actually "knowing" their personal finances; it's common sense and observation. I don't think whatever money - if any - Adler has made from Adler's Appetite albums and touring clubs has made any difference in his finances. And what about Izzy? He has released many albums which, although good, didn't sell and hasn't really toured. It doesn't seem that he has made the albums because he needed to work.

It's definitely possible Axl had to tour in 2002 to recoup the costs but that begs the question though why did go for a few thousand seaters in the US when he could have toured Europe (he only did three shows) or South America to much larger crowds and more revenue? The negative vibe towards new GN'R was always the strongest in the US. 

I wish the 2002 tour didn't end the way it did, it would be interesting to see how the band would have evolved chemistry wise. Ah well.

Yeah, Izzy didn't record those albums for a big financial gain the way Steven is with those books or whatever he's doing. I believe Izzy has enough money pouring in from royalties to continue living in obscurity. It definitely helps that he's very low key, no Malibu mansions for him or fancy Ferraris in the garage if you ask me. I bet he doesn't even go out to eat much, haha. But I would argue that his apperances with GN'R in 2006 and 2012 were at least in part financially motivated so it's not like he's completely oblivious to his bank account. 

[hally187]

At this point I don't think anything is "top secret", it just seems like it because they never tell us anything we want to hear.

Unlike 2002 they've told us they're cancelling shows (before the riot!) and they've spent more time promoting the release of a childrens book than they did Chinese Democracy.

It is no secret that Axl has sold out, we just need to start listening.

[Voodoochild]

On 27/05/2020 at 12:53 PM, GNR_RNR said:

Not true at all. People seem to think perfectionists release 'perfect' products which is just silly. It just means they are not happy with their work until it fits their personal 'vision'.

Agreed. 

But Axl wasn't really all about perfection. There's at least two fuck-ups in the editing of Chinese Democracy - a mishap in Axl's layer in Scraped and the sudden dry cut in Bumble's outro solo in Catcher. This is not something a perfectionist would let be released. 

The mixing seems rushed to me, and not really tested in different scenarios and/or speakers. Even though there's sub-bass credits in several tracks, it's almost inaudible. And it's very clear in the Village sessions (listen to CD, The Blues and Riad) that there was a sub-bass in there. But even Tommy's regular bass track is very poorly mixed. Also, their approach to include Bumble's rhythm guitar also sounded rushed and not well executed. 

If you want to get in the conspiracy, you may argue that the final album released was still a draft, much like what happened with the booklet. 

[Rovim]

26 minutes ago, Voodoochild said:

Agreed. 

But Axl wasn't really all about perfection. There's at least two fuck-ups in the editing of Chinese Democracy - a mishap in Axl's layer in Scraped and the sudden dry cut in Bumble's outro solo in Catcher. This is not something a perfectionist would let be released. 

The mixing seems rushed to me, and not really tested in different scenarios and/or speakers. Even though there's sub-bass credits in several tracks, it's almost inaudible. And it's very clear in the Village sessions (listen to CD, The Blues and Riad) that there was a sub-bass in there. But even Tommy's regular bass track is very poorly mixed. Also, their approach to include Bumble's rhythm guitar also sounded rushed and not well executed. 

If you want to get in the conspiracy, you may argue that the final album released was still a draft, much like what happened with the booklet. 

a lot of shit went down around the time of release with the Azoff shenanigans and lawsuits and after with Axl not supporting the release with a tour, choosing to wait a full year to go out on the road so I think it's possible something happened with the release that was either on purpose or slipped between the cracks and the final version was still just a draft.

put it this way: even if Axl isn't a perfectionist, (I personally believe he is) do you think he would not notice or care about the Scraped fuck up but has no problem of noticing a tiny mistake in Brain's drumming like Brain himself said? and why would you notice such details if you didn't care about every single little thing?

I feel like we don't know enough to come to an educated conclusion about what happened with the release errors but if it happened with the booklet, and the whole Gn'R mechanism had a lot of moving parts and the label had it's hands on a releasable product, they could have released it as is just to fuck with Axl or just one or both sides didn't care enough to do a better job at that point.

[Voodoochild]

23 minutes ago, Rovim said:

a lot of shit went down around the time of release with the Azoff shenanigans and lawsuits and after with Axl not supporting the release with a tour, choosing to wait a full year to go out on the road so I think it's possible something happened with the release that was either on purpose or slipped between the cracks and the final version was still just a draft.

put it this way: even if Axl isn't a perfectionist, (I personally believe he is) do you think he would not notice or care about the Scraped fuck up but has no problem of noticing a tiny mistake in Brain's drumming like Brain himself said? and why would you notice such details if you didn't care about every single little thing?

I feel like we don't know enough to come to an educated conclusion about what happened with the release errors but if it happened with the booklet, and the whole Gn'R mechanism had a lot of moving parts and the label had it's hands on a releasable product, they could have released it as is just to fuck with Axl or just one or both sides didn't care enough to do a better job at that point.

I do remember Axl said something about Scraped in the HTGTH chat... He said something like "every sound you hear is intended to be there". But my point is: both Scraped and CITR are not performance fuckups, but rather editing mistakes. It's like you publish a post with a typo on it. 

You're right about the moving parts too. Before all that, I thought there's no way Axl would have handled the masters to the label until he thought it was ready for release. Hearing the Village leaks showed me this wasn't a matter of being ready or not for most of the songs. It was ready at least since 2001/02.