The Axl Rose doesn't like Michael Jackson story

[RussTCB]

3 minutes ago, alfierose said:

As you know I tend to lean more the other way on the MJ stuff. I didn't know there was a new documentary though. I will go watch it in the interest of balance so thanks for the heads up.

Yeah, I know and of course I totally understand how people can feel that way. 

I really do appreciate you keeping an open mind enough to watch that though, I appreciate it

[SoulMonster]

5 minutes ago, Free Bird said:

I know it's not the point, but in your previous posts it seems like Slash is the one to blame for the lack of music after the Illusion tour. I don't think he was the one starting to stay away from rehearsals and the music which had been written for GNR was refused by Axl. 

But you know that anyway. In your post it just seems that it's totaly unreasonable for Slash to act like he did.

Exactly. I was only trying to provide some context to Axl's feelings about Slash playing with MJ.

Why they weren't able to release a new album after The Spaghetti Incident? is a whole different discussions and for which Axl must take a lot of the blame. If Axl had wanted he could have accepted the songs Slash had worked on and Slash would likely have been happy about it. But Axl obviously didn't think the songs were good enough or that they fit with what he wanted the next GN'R albums should sound like. This disagreement over musical direction was just one our of many issues between Slash and Axl that resulted in Slash not coming to rehearsals and eventually him quitting the band. One of many. And whereas it is hard to fault anyone for having a different opinion on what the next record should be like, there are other things that were done which can definitely be blamed on them. 

[Len Cnut]

If you sleep in bed with little boys, and openly admit it on telly, you're gonna get called a pedo for the rest of your life, regardless of whether you stick your finger up their bum or not.  Perhaps just...y'know, leave the kids alone?  You ain't fuckin' Willy Wonka, you're some black geezer from a soul band out of Indiana.

[Amaya]

9 hours ago, Len Cnut said:

If you sleep in bed with little boys, and openly admit it on telly, you're gonna get called a pedo for the rest of your life, regardless of whether you stick your finger up their bum or not.  Perhaps just...y'know, leave the kids alone?  You ain't fuckin' Willy Wonka, you're some black geezer from a soul band out of Indiana.

( I promised myself I would not enter here or post here again at all. Broke my promise to myself as I sit at the car dealership for auto repair. I have a few hours .lol)   I agree with you. The Bashir interview and 60 mins interview were cringeworthy. When an entertainer has Yes People around and lives in a Bubble, weird things happen. Yes I see some MJ fans here. . Yes, I know of Jordan's case could have gone buh- bye and had never been a case if Micheal would have cut Jordan's father a check and set him up in the business end of the business. That is what Jordan's father, the dentist, wanted. Blackmail. Yes I saw the recent HBO interview last year with the three other guys . WTF, what mother and father would allow their sons to have sleepovers and pillow fights and pizza and ice cream pigouts and movies with a grown azz man. These parents did because they were jetted all over the world on a private plane with shopping sprees, 5 star hotels, bills paid, etc. Cringeworthy. If Ms. Janedoe or Mr.Johndoe from around the corner wants to  hang out, be friends, sleep over with your kids, SURE YOU WOULD SAY YEAH, and your kids names are SmithWestonGlock. Take your pick.                                                MJ, what an enormous ,brilliant  talent. We will never know truth. Pick what you want to believe. TRUTH FACT, he had no gotdam business being pals, buddies, friends with those little White boys . I will post in pm or here if anyone says, why did I say White boys.                                                                             Bringing my post back to the original topic which we derailed from,  Axls reasons were his. Slash reasons were his. Slash was just expanding his brand at that time. Being a "real "parent changes you. Hellnah was Perla or Slash let MJ around their kids. MJ died when London and Cash were babies,  but lets say MJ died yesterday. Ain't no way in hell would Perla and Slash have let their boys pal around with even Prince, Paris, Blanket and their daddy. Maybe MJs kids could have gone by SlashPerlas BevHills home, but not the other way around.

Edited June 23, 2020 by Amaya

[Sweersa]

Slash has a child named Cash? 

Wow, I expected better. Sounds like the name of trailer park baby, or the last name of a great country artist. Haha

[Len Cnut]

57 minutes ago, Amaya said:

( I promised myself I would not enter here or post here again at all. Broke my promise to myself as I sit at the car dealership for auto repair. I have a few hours .lol)   I agree with you. The Bashir interview and 60 mins interview were cringeworthy. When an entertainer has Yes People around and lives in a Bubble, weird things happen. Yes I see some MJ fans here. . Yes, I know of Jordan's case could have gone buh- bye and had never been a case if Micheal would have cut Jordan's father a check and set him up in the business end of the business. That is what Jordan's father, the dentist, wanted. Blackmail. Yes I saw the recent HBO interview last year with the three other guys . WTF, what mother and father would allow their sons to have sleepovers and pillow fights and pizza and ice cream pigouts and movies with a grown azz man. These parents did because they were jetted all over the world on a private plane with shopping sprees, 5 star hotels, bills paid, etc. Cringeworthy. If Ms. Janedoe or Mr.Johndoe from around the corner wants to  hang out, be friends, sleep over with your kids, SURE YOU WOULD SAY YEAH, and your kids names are SmithWestonGlock. Take your pick.                                                MJ, what an enormous ,brilliant  talent. We will never know truth. Pick what you want to believe. TRUTH FACT, he had no gotdam business being pals, buddies, friends with those little White boys . I will post in pm or here if anyone says, why did I say White boys.                                                                             Bringing my post back to the original topic which we derailed from,  Axls reasons were his. Slash reasons were his. Slash was just expanding his brand at that time. Being a "real "parent changes you. Hellnah was Perla or Slash let MJ around their kids. MJ died when London and Cash were babies,  but lets say MJ died yesterday. Ain't no way in hell would Perla and Slash have let their boys pal around with even Prince, Paris, Blanket and their daddy. Maybe MJs kids could have gone by SlashPerlas BevHills home, but not the other way around.

Is it possible that he was just this big overgrown kid that meant absolutely zero harm, I mean is it within the realm of possibility?  Yes, it is.  But thats not how life works, is it?  If he was and he did nothing is it a sad indictment of a society? Yeah, it is but thats life, there are certain things you just don’t do and if you lack the judgement to discern what those things are without being told then there’s something seriously wrong with you and you’re probably dangerous, at least to yourself.  Sleeping with peoples children when you’re 40 or whatever is one of those things.  You develop a radar for these things and use your brain and avoid them.

Take racial slurs for example, is it possible to use a racial slur and not be a racist?  Yes, I think it is, the utterance of a word is a capability that most everyone possesses.  Someone could put a gun to your head and make you say any word they wish, so its there in you, the capability, should you ever wish to do it for whatever reason, including illustrating the point I’m trying to make here.  However, here in the real world when you use em a great portion of society will think you a racist, whether you are or not is immaterial to everybody except yourself. 
 

Edited June 23, 2020 by Len Cnut

[lame ass security]

52 minutes ago, Sweersa said:

Slash has a child named Cash? 

Wow, I expected better. Sounds like the name of trailer park baby, or the last name of a great country artist. Haha

They named him after Perla.

[Scream of the Butterfly]

I wouldn't be surprised if Axl is actually one of the few people out there who can relate to Michael Jackson with ease when it comes to his efforts to create a happy childhood for himself as an adult. Axl himself was well into his 30s when he started referring to Beta as his mother as if he was one of the Lebeis children. Similarly, Michael Jackson surrounded himself with families that he liked and behaved as if he was one of the children. I don't know if Axl ever took it quite as far as MJ, but overall it's easy to see the similarity.

[PatrickS77]

12 hours ago, Len Cnut said:

If you sleep in bed with little boys, and openly admit it on telly, you're gonna get called a pedo for the rest of your life, regardless of whether you stick your finger up their bum or not.  Perhaps just...y'know, leave the kids alone?  You ain't fuckin' Willy Wonka, you're some black geezer from a soul band out of Indiana.

People saying you are one and being one are 2 different things though.

[PatrickS77]

3 hours ago, Amaya said:

( I promised myself I would not enter here or post here again at all. Broke my promise to myself as I sit at the car dealership for auto repair. I have a few hours .lol)   I agree with you. The Bashir interview and 60 mins interview were cringeworthy. When an entertainer has Yes People around and lives in a Bubble, weird things happen. Yes I see some MJ fans here. . Yes, I know of Jordan's case could have gone buh- bye and had never been a case if Micheal would have cut Jordan's father a check and set him up in the business end of the business. That is what Jordan's father, the dentist, wanted. Blackmail. Yes I saw the recent HBO interview last year with the three other guys . WTF, what mother and father would allow their sons to have sleepovers and pillow fights and pizza and ice cream pigouts and movies with a grown azz man. These parents did because they were jetted all over the world on a private plane with shopping sprees, 5 star hotels, bills paid, etc. Cringeworthy. If Ms. Janedoe or Mr.Johndoe from around the corner wants to  hang out, be friends, sleep over with your kids, SURE YOU WOULD SAY YEAH, and your kids names are SmithWestonGlock. Take your pick.                                                MJ, what an enormous ,brilliant  talent. We will never know truth. Pick what you want to believe. TRUTH FACT, he had no gotdam business being pals, buddies, friends with those little White boys . I will post in pm or here if anyone says, why did I say White boys.                                                                             Bringing my post back to the original topic which we derailed from,  Axls reasons were his. Slash reasons were his. Slash was just expanding his brand at that time. Being a "real "parent changes you. Hellnah was Perla or Slash let MJ around their kids. MJ died when London and Cash were babies,  but lets say MJ died yesterday. Ain't no way in hell would Perla and Slash have let their boys pal around with even Prince, Paris, Blanket and their daddy. Maybe MJs kids could have gone by SlashPerlas BevHills home, but not the other way around.

White boy?

And you really have no idea who Slash's kids would be around would Michael be alive. Having your kids not around someone, who's just standing trial for alleged child molestation is just common sense and not really an idictment that you really think he did that. Slash simply could not know 100% for sure and knew how it would look.

Edited June 23, 2020 by PatrickS77

[History2010]

13 hours ago, Len Cnut said:

If you sleep in bed with little boys, and openly admit it on telly, you're gonna get called a pedo for the rest of your life, regardless of whether you stick your finger up their bum or not.  Perhaps just...y'know, leave the kids alone?  You ain't fuckin' Willy Wonka, you're some black geezer from a soul band out of Indiana.

I understand completely why people would look at the situation on the surface level and assume he was guilty. But why do so many people choose to not look any further? I can't think of anything worse you can call someone than 'pedophile'. It's an extremely serious allegation and therefore needs to be investigated thoroughly. He was investigated by several law enforcement agencies throughout his life and was cleared several times over. And then obviously went through the highly publicized trial where every little detail was discussed to death. And they determined that he was not guilty of any of the charges. Why do people ignore the outcome of the investigations? It doesn't make any sense to me.  

Edited June 23, 2020 by History2010

[PatrickS77]

41 minutes ago, Scream of the Butterfly said:

I wouldn't be surprised if Axl is actually one of the few people out there who can relate to Michael Jackson with ease when it comes to his efforts to create a happy childhood for himself as an adult. Axl himself was well into his 30s when he started referring to Beta as his mother as if he was one of the Lebeis children. Similarly, Michael Jackson surrounded himself with families that he liked and behaved as if he was one of the children. I don't know if Axl ever took it quite as far as MJ, but overall it's easy to see the similarity.

Yes. That is not so much different. Axl also adopted a family, because he's to fucked up and broken to get one of his own and has the money to do so. Also not perfectly normal.

Edited June 23, 2020 by PatrickS77

[Len Cnut]

1 hour ago, PatrickS77 said:

People saying you are one and being one are 2 different things though.

Not too different.  Say you’re a man innocent of committing a murder but the world thinks you’re guilty, its a strong man that can brush that shit off and live the rest of their life not giving a fuck.  My point is, to get corny on you for a moment and quote Jack Nicholson in The Departed, when you’re facing a loaded gun, whats the difference?  And on some level he was cuz anyone that thinks his death wasn’t, on some level, something to do with those accusations and the psychic weight of all that shit is kidding themselves.

 

1 hour ago, History2010 said:

I understand completely why people would look at the situation on the surface level and assume he was guilty. But why do so many people choose to not look any further? I can't think of anything worse you can call someone than 'pedophile'. It's an extremely serious allegation and therefore needs to be investigated thoroughly. He was investigated by several law enforcement agencies throughout his life and was cleared several times over. And then obviously went through the highly publicized trial where every little detail was discussed to death. And they determined that he was not guilty of any of the charges. Why do people ignore the outcome of the investigations? It doesn't make any sense to me.  

Because like I said, when you admit that shit, when you admit sleeping with kids in your bed, thats as good as guilty to most folks out there.  There’s a line you cross and then thats it, that becomes you.  In the same way William S Burroughs will always be ‘junkie writer William S Burroughs’, thats the way the world works and if you want to make it through life the way to do it is to come to terms with that shit or else you’ll find yourself screaming ‘its not fair’ to thin air for the rest of your life.  Unless of course, as I said earlier, you’re strong enough to not give a fuck and do your thing regardless.  Jacko clearly wasn’t.

[History2010]

13 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

Because like I said, when you admit that shit, when you admit sleeping with kids in your bed, thats as good as guilty to most folks out there.  There’s a line you cross and then thats it, that becomes you.  In the same way William S Burroughs will always be ‘junkie writer William S Burroughs’, thats the way the world works and if you want to make it through life the way to do it is to come to terms with that shit or else you’ll find yourself screaming ‘its not fair’ to thin air for the rest of your life.  Unless of course, as I said earlier, you’re strong enough to not give a fuck and do your thing regardless.  Jacko clearly wasn’t.

Fair enough I suppose. As I've stated in this thread, the sleepovers were inappropriate for a grown man. He was 100% in the wrong for doing that stuff. But it does not make him some sort of monster that should be shunned from history. It makes him a case study in what can happen to child stars forced to go through extreme trauma and have almost unlimited resources to try and re-do their childhood over again. He also serves as an example of what can happen when regular people are put in a situation where they can take advantage of a celebrity and exploit them for financial gain.

Edited June 23, 2020 by History2010

[PatrickS77]

17 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

Not too different.  Say you’re a man innocent of committing a murder but the world thinks you’re guilty, its a strong man that can brush that shit off and live the rest of their life not giving a fuck.  My point is, to get corny on you for a moment and quote Jack Nicholson in The Departed, when you’re facing a loaded gun, whats the difference?  And on some level he was cuz anyone that thinks his death wasn’t, on some level, something to do with those accusations and the psychic weight of all that shit is kidding themselves.

There are few, who would argue that being branded a pedophile by ignorant people, while being innocent, didn't alter the course of his life and didn't lead to his early death. Stage fright, anxiety, mistrust, being paranoid.... everything happened because of how his life got derailed by these accusations.

And yes, it is very different. One is a falsely accused and the other is a criminal. A difference of night and day.

For a while he didn't give a fuck, he did things how he wanted, so that's why he always had children around and never made a secret about it, while at the same time, he wanted to show that nothing perverted and nothing wrong was going on, which was his undoing and downfall because the world and certain people couldn't handle that and it led to the trial in '03-'05. Had he not wanted to show the world that there was no wrong doing going on, things would have taken a different turn.

Edited June 24, 2020 by PatrickS77

[Blackstar]

39 minutes ago, History2010 said:

I understand completely why people would look at the situation on the surface level and assume he was guilty. But why do so many people chose to not look any further? I can't think of anything worse you can call someone than 'pedophile'. It's an extremely serious allegation and therefore needs to be investigated thoroughly. Why do people ignore the outcome of the investigations? It doesn't make any sense to me.  

It's simply because the non fans are not as motivated as the fans. And MJ's case is unique in the sense that there is a very serious accusation (for many people, the worst thing someone can be accused of) with a lot of "smoke"; and on the other hand, there is a big fandom whose emotional connection and love for MJ's music is inseparable from the love for him to greater extent than in the case of any other artist - my impression is that many fans experienced his music as the product of a noble human being. 

So the fans have motivation to spend time to investigate in order to find the clues that question the accusations and the angles from which MJ looks innocent - for example, the fans are more willing to accept the explanation that the sleepovers were innocent because MJ was childlike. 

From the general public's perspective, there is, of course, the fact that MJ was never found guilty in a court of law. But there is also the "smoke" that has been created by more than one  allegations and circumstantial stuff. When each one of these is seen separately and isolated from the rest, the focus can be on the inconsistencies, the potential questionable motives of the accusers and the fact that the sleepovers or the kind of pornography/art that was found in MJ's place are not illegal and don't consist proof of anything in themselves - I guess this is why MJ was acquitted in court. But when they're all seen together, they paint a certain picture which can make many people think that he was guilty despite the fact that he wasn't found guilty. 

 

[History2010]

4 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

It's simply because the non fans are not as motivated as the fans. And MJ's case is unique in the sense that there is a very serious accusation (for many people, the worst thing someone can be accused of) with a lot of "smoke"; and on the other hand, there is a big fandom whose emotional connection and love for MJ's music is inseparable from the love for him to greater extent than in the case of any other artist - my impression is that many fans experienced his music as the product of a noble human being. 

So the fans have motivation to spend time to investigate in order to find the clues that question the accusations and the angles from which MJ looks innocent - for example, the fans are more willing to accept the explanation that the sleepovers were innocent because MJ was childlike. 

I would never go around calling someone a pedophile without doing enough research to back up what I am saying. But I understand that many others don't have the same moral code.  The whole thing about having to do a significant amount of reading is becoming less and less relevant to this case as new documentaries continue to surface, giving the general audience a quick and easy way to learn about the case. Square One on Amazon Prime keeps being mentioned in this thread and hopefully it continues to get more and more attention.

[LunsJail]

Did no one watch Leaving Neverland?

[History2010]

2 minutes ago, LunsJail said:

Did no one watch Leaving Neverland?

I watched it. It really shocked me how much Robson and Safechuck contradicted themselves from what they present to audiences vs what they say under oath. Not to mention the flat out lies in there (Abuse happening in the Neverland train station when it hadn't even been built yet, claiming to go on trips with MJ alone when Wade's entire family was with them, Robson claiming to being forced to testify by subpoena when he actually volunteered to defend MJ, ect). These are the kind of red flags that people need to look out for, when the story they are telling continues to evolve and contains details that are simply untrue.

 

If anything good came from Leaving Neverland, it's that it was the breaking point for many to start doing their own research and it led to a decent sized backlash against these tired MJ allegations. Dan Reed hoped it would lead to a flood of kids coming out and saying MJ abused them but it never happened because the abuse didn't happen.  

[The Holographic Universe]

4 minutes ago, History2010 said:

I watched it. It really shocked me how much Robson and Safechuck contradicted themselves from what they present to audiences vs what they say under oath. Not to mention the flat out lies in there (Abuse happening in the Neverland train station when it hadn't even been built yet, claiming to go on trips with MJ alone when Wade's entire family was with them, Robson claiming to being forced to testify by subpoena when he actually volunteered to defend MJ, ect). These are the kind of red flags that people need to look out for, when the story they are telling continues to evolve and contains details that are simply untrue.

 

If anything good came from Leaving Neverland, it's that it was the breaking point for many to start doing their own research and it led to a decent sized backlash against these tired MJ allegations. Dan Reed hoped it would lead to a flood of kids coming out and saying MJ abused them but it never happened because the abuse didn't happen.  

I don’t much about this topic, but I believe it’s safe to assume there was a desire to see if they could generate people to come out and make accusations. If MJ was a pedophile then he would have done something his own children. Pedophiles cannot control those urges. 

[History2010]

Just now, The Holographic Universe said:

If MJ was a pedophile then he would have done something his own children. Pedophiles cannot control those urges. 

Very true. He also completely stopped being around any other children than his own after 2003. Which is very inconsistent behavior with what we understand about pedophiles. They cannot control those urges but the anti-MJ crowd seem to suggest that he somehow could. 

[The Holographic Universe]

13 minutes ago, History2010 said:

Very true. He also completely stopped being around any other children than his own after 2003. Which is very inconsistent behavior with what we understand about pedophiles. They cannot control those urges but the anti-MJ crowd seem to suggest that he somehow could. 

Pedos cannot control those urges.  I’m almost certain there is clinical research to prove this is the case. Once Michael paid that first child 20 million it was over for him as far as allegations. 

[History2010]

28 minutes ago, The Holographic Universe said:

Once Michael paid that first child 20 million it was over for him as far as allegations.

Sadly. A lot of people aren't aware that the civil trial was approaching quickly while the criminal trial was lagging behind. He was going to have to give up his defense strategy just to save some money so he settled and waited for the criminal trial which ultimately never happened due to no evidence being found and Chandler's incorrect description. That situation inspired a change of law in California that dictates that a civil trial can no longer come before a criminal trial.

The Chandler's also stopped cooperating with the police after receiving the settlement. I guess they didn't want MJ to go to prison because he never actually did anything. They got the payday and rode off into the sunset 

Edited June 24, 2020 by History2010

[lame ass security]

Axl was just mad because he never could do the moonwalk. 

[Amaya]

2 hours ago, LunsJail said:

Did no one watch Leaving Neverland?

I did and referenced to it in my post. I referred to it as the HBO show. I forgot the name of the show. I am not joining in the debate of MJs innocence or guilt. The parents were very silly, greedy, and guilty. No one in the real world lets their kids be pals and stuff with an adult. 

Edited June 24, 2020 by Amaya